Apple and Amazon Ordered to Enter Settlement Talks Over 'App Store' Trademark Issue

Apple Key · Jan 16, 2013

KnightWRX said:
Forget it, a judge ruled there was no confusion and rejected Apple's claims. Apple Key then comes in and says there is confusion...

Let's see... a Judge... who reviewed all the evidence from both parties, knows trademark law in and out, what constitutes confusion or not, or Apple Key, some forum poster that seems to not understand IP protection schemes well and keeps repeating the same stuff we've debunked...

Who to believe I wonder.

----------

It doesn't. Apple claimed it did, and the Judge rejected it.

I'm not disagreeing about the law. Fine, the law says there is no confusion.

I'm saying there is customer confusion though. I don't care if there legally is confusion or not (and that is just the ruling of a single judge).

By the way, you don't have to be rude.

KnightWRX · Jan 16, 2013

Apple Key said:
To me, the confusion comes in when people hear about an app for the app store and think it is available on the app store which they are using. When in fact, it is sometimes only offered on the competing app store.

No one is stealing marketshare from anyone in that scenario. And the "Confusion" claims have been thrown out, stop trying. It is now ruled on, barring an appeal by Apple of which I have not heard about yet.

samcraig · Jan 16, 2013

Apple Key said:
Whether you believe it or not, there is customer confusion between the two stores. That is the way that Amazon can (and does) take marketshare away form Apple.

People like to compare things item by item. Here is an example that could occur before someone purchases a device (deciding between Amazon and Apple).

Camera to take photos? Check, they both have it.
Calendar? Check, they both have it.
App Store? Check, they both have it.

Whereas if one had an App Store, and the other one had a Marketplace or Program Store, direct comparison would not be easily drawn for the consumer.

Actually - what you wrote is more confusing since both devices HAVE app stores. So you're in favor of confusing the customer by using a different ubiquitous term?

Apple Key said:
To me, the confusion comes in when people hear about an app for the app store and think it is available on the app store which they are using. When in fact, it is sometimes only offered on the competing app store.

Competing? Let me know when you can run an iOS app on an Android device and vice-versa.

This isn't Amazing vs Google - you know that right?

KnightWRX · Jan 16, 2013

Apple Key said:
By the way, you don't have to be rude.

You don't have to argue points that have been debunked and dismiss facts and citations with your opinion.

Renzatic · Jan 16, 2013

Apple Key said:
To me, the confusion comes in when people hear about an app for the app store and think it is available on the app store which they are using. When in fact, it is sometimes only offered on the competing app store.

That would actually work out in Apple's favor. Someone sees some nice app on their friends iPad, goes home to look at the app store on their Fire HD, sees it's not there, and gets all disappointed...

...they'll probably be more likely to grab an iPad Mini next time they're out shopping for tablets. The opposite won't happen because Apple's app store has everything. It's the most heavily supported platform out there at the moment. Anything that can be done on the Fire HD, I can do on my iPad. Up to and including having access to all of Amazon's services.

Lennholm · Jan 16, 2013

kitsap2 said:
In the Microsoft world, "Applications" were known as, "Programs". Apple has always called its, "programs", Applications.

Apple truncated the word, applications, to, App. Then called their new, smaller (file size) applications for iPhone, Apps. Then filed for trademark status of that name, in The App Store.

Microsoft would, theoretically, call their program/s, Prog/s. And hence, The Prog Store. Doesn't sound quite that nice rolling off the tongue, but it would make sense.

Why are you bringing Microsoft into this discussion? And are you seriously suggesting that Apple should own the word "application" and its abbreviations and Microsoft should own "program" and its abbreviation so that every one else has to invent their own versions of the words "application" and "program"?

Amazon couldn't come up with their own nifty name, so they just "borrowed" Apple's name for their store. Maybe Amazon should have called their store, The DroidApp Store, Drapp Store, Roid Store, The Amazon Store for Little Programs to Run on Android Platform Phones Store.

Just my early morning thoughts. No legal eagle here.

Why would "DroidApp Store" be ok if "AmazonAppStore" isn't?

The problem with the term "app store" is that it's both generic and descriptive and therefore it can't be trademarked since it would prevent others from using a purely descriptive term to describe their product/service.

TMar · Jan 16, 2013

Apple Key said:
Whether you believe it or not, there is customer confusion between the two stores. That is the way that Amazon can (and does) take marketshare away form Apple.

People like to compare things item by item. Here is an example that could occur before someone purchases a device (deciding between Amazon and Apple).

Camera to take photos? Check, they both have it.
Calendar? Check, they both have it.
App Store? Check, they both have it.

Whereas if one had an App Store, and the other one had a Marketplace or Program Store, direct comparison would not be easily drawn for the consumer.

----------

I know they have it copyrighted. That's why I said I hoped that they were being sarcastic. And posted a screenshot of their copyright on their website.

Okay. So there's two pawn shops in town. Bob's Pawn Shop™ and Bill's Pawn Shop™ but everyone just says The Pawn Shop for both of them and if asked for clarification they say Bob's or Bill's. Amazon's 'appstore' isn't called app store just like Bill's pawn shop isn't named the pawn shop.

melendezest · Jan 16, 2013

pacalis said:
This may be the most ridiculous post so far. This also seems to be one dumb judge. Hopefully this kind of incompetence isn't the future of America.

There is a long rich tradition in trademark law. Maybe some people could at least start with wikipedia. At the heart of trademark law are concepts of originality and and non-functionally.

If Apple called it FooFooFun, its a stupid name but a great trademark. But by calling a store that sells applications an App Store, it shows a total lack of skill, judgement and foresight on the part of Apple. They are one the wrong side of this by a mile. Ironically, this judge does not seem to either know or care about the case at this time, so here we are reading silly thoughts on this nonsense.

Ouch, easy there, chief! Wasn't the trademark "App Store" granted initially to Apple? (I thought it was, correct me if I'm wrong). Did you miss the part where I alluded that Apple should have known better?

"But by calling a store that sells applications an App Store, it shows a total lack of skill, judgement and foresight on the part of Apple." Why? From a marketing standpoint, it was clever. Apple Store -> App(le) Store. No trademark existed, they applied, it was granted.

I couldn't quite get what point you were trying to make while you were hurling insults through your teeth. Can you try again, a little less mean, please?

I swear, on the Internet, everyone is a tough guy.

EDIT: Just a thought--you cannot educate people by calling them idiots, dumbasses, morons, etc.
It is just petulant and unnecessary. I can assume were mostly grown ups here, but the level of childish anger in these forums is amazing, coming from even some of the most well-informed posters. If I ever post an opinion (based on the possibly limited info available to me at the time) that conflicts with facts, then hey, educate me. I come here for fun and to learn too. But pretending to be superior by bashing others is just pathetic and weak.

akbarali.ch · Jan 16, 2013

Appstore now is generic term but before Apple nobody ever used it for anything. It was non-existence. When Apple came out with appstore it was very unique, pure unique, purely for Apple ecosystem, but then the appstore concept spread so wild and fast that before it could become propriety name of Apple it became a general term for the world. So now the whole world knows it as generic name for store where you can download apps rather than Apple invented name.
All those people who say that Apple is wrong are actually fooling them self.
Yes Apple is late but not wrong.
And yes Apple should let go of this cos' there's practically no benefit.

Now actually people automatically call as Apple appstore or Windows appstore or Google Appstore.

Sedrick · Jan 16, 2013

kitsap2 said:
In the Microsoft world, "Applications" were known as, "Programs". Apple has always called its, "programs", Applications.

Apple truncated the word, applications, to, App. Then called their new, smaller (file size) applications for iPhone, Apps. Then filed for trademark status of that name, in The App Store.

Microsoft would, theoretically, call their program/s, Prog/s. And hence, The Prog Store. Doesn't sound quite that nice rolling off the tongue, but it would make sense.

Amazon couldn't come up with their own nifty name, so they just "borrowed" Apple's name for their store. Maybe Amazon should have called their store, The DroidApp Store, Drapp Store, Roid Store, The Amazon Store for Little Programs to Run on Android Platform Phones Store.

Just my early morning thoughts. No legal eagle here.

I hate using the word 'APP' in conversation either way. "Honey, check out this new 'APP' I got at the APPSTORE!" Gawd, how pathetic.

Of course I generally avoid using made up marketing terms either way. McRibs anyone?

j4zb4 · Jan 16, 2013

In the early days of iOs 2.0 I honestly thought appstore was short for "apple"store... But well...

hchung · Jan 16, 2013

samcraig said:
When Apple started their App Store. Palm still ACTIVELY had an App Store.

So Apple wasn't the only one with that name actively, now was it? You said WAS not IS.

No no, Palm still actively had an app store. (No capitals.)
Palm did not have the Palm App Store. (Capitals.)

Palm's App Store wasn't named App Store until AFTER Apple started their app store. Gnasher already mentioned this in a comment, but apparently got lost in the noise.

One more time:
Palm had an app store before Apple.
But Apple called it App Store before Palm. (Palm rebranded theirs about 5 months after Apple launched theirs.)

http://www.treocentral.com/content/Stories/2258-1.htm

samcraig · Jan 16, 2013

akbarali.ch said:
Appstore now is generic term but before Apple nobody ever used it for anything. It was non-existence. When Apple came out with appstore it was very unique, pure unique, purely for Apple ecosystem, but then the appstore concept spread so wild and fast that before it could become propriety name of Apple it became a general term for the world.

All those people who say that Apple is wrong are actually fooling them self.
Yes Apple is late but not wrong.

Ohhhh realllllllly now?

Saladinos · Jan 16, 2013

alexgowers said:
I disagree the term 'appstore' is not generic at all.

It was almost never been used before apple decided to call it's programs for it's phones apps. There were many software stores online and many didn't shorten applications to apps at all! I mean come on just because it's simple doesn't mean there aren't other names, every other company has thought of something original to call their outlets with no issues.

I mean they could have called it appshop, softstore or any number of variations on a theme. Amazon are guilty of copying, now whether that is illegal is a whole different debate and that is presumably what the court wants answered. I think it's fine for amazon to call their store whatever they want but they have to admit they are copying to get customers in the door. Sadly for amazon their name is not synonymous with quality and I think apple feels they are misleading the public into believing they will get an apple like experience.

I also have to say apples app stores are still lacking after an initial revelation the usability hasn't improved and needs a massive rethink.

I agree. The term 'AppStore' was not widely used before the AppStore. Apple should be allowed to trademark it.

Companies like Amazon are trying to turn it in to a generic term in order to dilute the strength of Apple's brand.

samcraig · Jan 16, 2013

Saladinos said:
I agree. The term 'AppStore' was not widely used before the AppStore. Apple should be allowed to trademark it.

Companies like Amazon are trying to turn it in to a generic term in order to dilute the strength of Apple's brand.

pssst. App Store. two words is what they trademarked. AppStore would be what Amazon uses. In fact - they use AmazonAppStore or in text, they use "Appstore for Android"

F1 Fan · Jan 16, 2013

Whilst I agree that "App Store" is generic, if Apple hold a patent on "App Store" then Amazon can't use "Appstore" without an agreement. They have used it so they should pay for it.

daxomni · Jan 16, 2013

I'm confused alright. Confused as to why a company is allowed to trademark even the most basic self evident names you can think of. This isn't an anti-Apple rant or pro-Amazon rave so much as an anti-stupidity position.

MMOTotal said:
No this again.Most of the time (personally) when I say "it's on the app store" they automatically think the store on iOS if it's something on Android I usually say the google store.

So, in other words, Apple is BENEFITING from the confusion? Maybe Apple should be the ones opening their pocket books.

samcraig · Jan 16, 2013

F1 Fan said:
Whilst I agree that "App Store" is generic, if Apple hold a patent on "App Store" then Amazon can't use "Appstore" without an agreement. They have used it so they should pay for it.

This issue is a trademark issue. Not patent. Thanks.

Nickerbocker · Jan 16, 2013

Popeye206 said:
LOL! I love all the knowledgeable trademark experts here!

Everyone is The Expert online.

scriptx · Jan 16, 2013

This thread is the most amusing thread I have seen on here in a long time! It is a prime example of how people do five minutes of googling and become experts, then have to back up their expertise with fiction passed off as facts.

We have people saying MS primarily used the term "program" then somebody posts a picture of an old Window's NT box that exclusively uses the term Application and not a single instance of the term Program. Then we get posts with people saying Apple was the first one to use the term App Store and some knowledgeable fellow posts an old Palm screenshot with an App Store titled icon.

Thank you for some mid day entertainment!

LagunaSol · Jan 16, 2013

BigDaddy3000 said:
You iTards disguist me! Seriously!

Perhaps there's a site out there better suited to your personal sensibilities? GoogleSheep.com? SamsungLovers.net? AppleHaters.org?

The Internet. Give it a try.

macnerd93 · Jan 16, 2013

DipDog3 said:
Sorry, but yes, "App Store" is generic. You can't trademark it.

I don't think anyone gets confused, they know you go to the app store to get apps regardless of what device it is on.

And Windows, Office and Word isn't? xD Personally I think in this case they seem as bad as each other.

F1 Fan · Jan 16, 2013

samcraig said:
This issue is a trademark issue. Not patent. Thanks.

My bad. Surely it's the same basic premise tho? Some court / judge / official / whatever has declared that Apple have a legal rights / ownership / whatever of "App Store" and anyone using something too similar is in breach of that... No?

macsmurf · Jan 16, 2013

melendezest said:
Ouch, easy there, chief! Wasn't the trademark "App Store" granted initially to Apple? (I thought it was, correct me if I'm wrong).

You're wrong. It was awarded to Salesforce.com. Apple used it without permission, but Marc Benioff decided just to give them the rights for free instead of making a big thing out of it.

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2011/08...n-and-trademark-to-steve-jobs-as-a-thank-you/

The problem with arguing in support of Apple is that they did exactly what Amazon did.

MrDc2 · Jan 16, 2013

samcraig said:
Good. They should settle out of court and not take up the court's time.

Personally - I think there's no customer confusion. Especially with AmazonAppStore's logo and the fact that you can't install Android Apps on iOS and vice versa.

Further - and it's been my personal experience that very few people refer to Apple's App Store as the App Store. Most people I know say " hey - is that app on iTunes?" or "just download that app from iTunes" or some variant.

Regardless. App Store is generic. But I full expect this thread to be just like the one before it (when the first ruling came out) and every other thread which will devolve into a discussion of who used App first and who made it popular, etc. So in other words

SEE OTHER THREAD

/AGREE! See other thread. This was covered a week ago.

Apple and Amazon Ordered to Enter Settlement Talks Over 'App Store' Trademark Issue

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