Key Claim of Apple's 'Rubber Banding' Patent Used Against Samsung Confirmed

MegamanX · Jun 16, 2013

Real666 said:
Has anyone else noticed the elephant in the room with Android? Android was not publishing their Android 5.0 But was just going to add a 4.3 but right after Apples WWDC they all of a sudden are going to push the 5.0. It's like they where waiting to see what was new coming from Apple to either copy or try to improve upon.

I am going to point out some flaws in that and shows some very clear lack of understanding of software development.

First off the numbers are exactly that. Just numbers. For the longest time they had the 2.x line and there were big changes between the .x areas. 3.x was tablet. 4.x is seeming to be just the combining of tablet and the phone. Really means nothing.

Also you need to understand the cycling of time. Best case it would take 6 months put in features. That is 6 months to lock down stage. You still would have a few months of final bug fixes before release. Basicly best case it would be maybe a year to really do a large scale coping.

And lets be honest iOS7 brought nothing new to the table. All the "new features" have been on Android already for almost 2 years now. That is right almost all the "new" features have been on android since ICS. So it is not like they have anything to copy.
iOS5-7 from Apple have been catch up updates at best. They are not bring anything new to the table. They are not that impressive.

Dolorian · Jun 16, 2013

MegamanX said:
I am going to point out some flaws in that and shows some very clear lack of understanding of software development.

First off the numbers are exactly that. Just numbers. For the longest time they had the 2.x line and there were big changes between the .x areas. 3.x was tablet. 4.x is seeming to be just the combining of tablet and the phone. Really means nothing.

Also you need to understand the cycling of time. Best case it would take 6 months put in features. That is 6 months to lock down stage. You still would have a few months of final bug fixes before release. Basicly best case it would be maybe a year to really do a large scale coping.

And lets be honest iOS7 brought nothing new to the table. All the "new features" have been on Android already for almost 2 years now. That is right almost all the "new" features have been on android since ICS. So it is not like they have anything to copy.
iOS5-7 from Apple have been catch up updates at best. They are not bring anything new to the table. They are not that impressive.

Exactly, there is also the fact that Key Lime Pie has been in the works for months already, with even a device (made by Sony if I recall correctly) popping up in a benchmark running Android 5.0 back in November 2012. Google even teased Key Lime Pie during one of the developers presentations in I/O 2013 (one was a cartoon of the Android mascot eating a Key Lime Pie and another was within a game demo).

They have been working at it long before iOS 7 was unveiled, so to say it is only now that Google is pushing for Android 5.0 (not to mention that releasing Android 4.3, which will likely be a minor update, does not precludes a release of Android 5.0) because of iOS 7 is simply incorrect and as pointed by MegamanX shows a lack of understanding of software development.

And besides, when I was reading through the feature page of iOS 7, most of the time I found myself saying "oh, nice, just like Android". Like the iPhone 5 before it, this is just Apple playing catch up in the OS front.

nia820 · Jun 16, 2013

trogdorDR said:
People "prefer" Android over iOS the same way that people "prefer" Kia over a Lexus. Some people can't justify paying the difference because it's 'almost' the same experience. Others prefer to pay the premium price for a premium product. Put another way: iOS is to Android, as Kraft Easy-Mac is to Walmart Macaroni and Cheese

You do realize galaxy s4 and note 2 cost just as much as iphone 5 right? and their galaxy s3 cost the same as iphone 4s.

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moxin said:
samsung innovation = Copy/paste/edit iOS

Maybe that was the case in 2010. But when I was watching ios7 presentation I was thinking the whole time that my gs4 already does that.

Apple copy pasted android.

US Marine · Jun 16, 2013

moxin said:
samsung innovation = Copy/paste/edit iOS

Ha! I'm not taking that troll bait, good sir.

otismotive77 · Jun 16, 2013

way to go apple, it's a distinguishing feature of the best platform available, i.e. iOS.
BTW, samsung's fine was reduced to about $500M-$600M.

pirg · Jun 16, 2013

kdarling said:
Judge Koh had already ruled that the trial would not be delayed while the Patent Office reviewed various patents.

As for this patent, I don't think Samsung has used the bounceback since last summer's trial, so at most the upcoming new jury might (again) find some old devices to infringe.

However, this time around, Samsung can show that the effect was nowhere near as valuable as Apple had claimed... since even without it, Samsung's sales hugely increased.

This is true but also irrelevant. I'm sure you don't believe that it was about the money to Apple. They just wanted Samsung to stop stealing. Samsung was found guilty on all counts, and that's way more to Apple than a paltry $1B award, which they'll make up in a week and half tops.

The true "moral" of the story is if you steal, you'll get caught. Samsung got caught.

macs4nw · Jun 17, 2013

TimeSquareDesi said:
If you were the person / entity that created the rubber-banding effect, I am sure you would do what you can in your power to prevent your competitors from ripping it off... no?

If not, your company wouldn't last a minute in today's world. Patents are not killing innovation. Instead of copying Apple, Samsung could have come up with something comparable for their own devices. That's lack of innovation on Samsung's part - not related to patents whatsoever, IMO.

All of these "small things" that Apple has patented is what makes their phones and user interface so great. They have a right to protect what their hard work (and R&D dollars) created.

Right on the money!

Oletros · Jun 17, 2013

Real666 said:
. In the beginning Android copied Cydia also. Notifications, SBsettings, Multitasking, Live wallpapers, and more were all first implementations of the jailbreak community in 2007 with the first iPhone. Android didn't come out until October 2008.

I think you have to look another time at the time frame of the implementations

Just one example, SBSettings came after Android implemented nortifications in the SDK

Real666 said:
Has anyone else noticed the elephant in the room with Android? Android was not publishing their Android 5.0 But was just going to add a 4.3 but right after Apples WWDC they all of a sudden are going to push the 5.0. It's like they where waiting to see what was new coming from Apple to either copy or try to improve upon.

You must be joking

TimeSquareDesi · Jun 18, 2013

macs4nw said:
Right on the money!

Thank you kindly, sir. As a gesture of your gratitude, I am now accepting monetary donations for my iPhone 6 fund. Care to donate?

lazard · Jun 18, 2013

Real666 said:
In the beginning Android copied Cydia also. Notifications, SBsettings, Multitasking, Live wallpapers, and more were all first implementations of the jailbreak community in 2007 with the first iPhone. Android didn't come out until October 2008.

FYI, the first version of SBsettings was released on October 27th, 2008, one week after the HTC Dream was released (first Android phone).

pirg · Jun 18, 2013

lazard said:
FYI, the first version of SBsettings was released on October 27th, 2008, one week after the HTC Dream was released (first Android phone).

Toggles are an obvious thing to do. Isn't that how android users discount all apple features?

macs4nw · Jun 18, 2013

TimeSquareDesi said:
Thank you kindly, sir. As a gesture of your gratitude, I am now accepting monetary donations for my iPhone 6 fund. Care to donate?

The cheque is in the mail. My apologies if it 'bounces' tho.....

gnasher729 · Jun 18, 2013

TCZ said:
Hooke's law (1660) relating force F and extension x of a spring of stiffness k:
F=kx

FREE.

Written in code:

def RubberBandForce (ScreenExtension: Int): Int = {

val k = 100
return k*ScreenExtension
}

ONE BILLION DOLLARS!

And totally missing the point. This patent is not about "how to implement rubber banding", but about "how to give a user feedback that a scrolling operation has reached the limit of the possible range". For many years, the only known method was either (a) no feedback at all or (b) a "beep" as the feedback. I have implemented both old methods in 1984, and found neither very satisfactory. If it had been obvious that this could be done better, I would have done it better in 1984. About 26 years since _I_ first noticed the problem, and Apple patented a solution, that implies very much that the solution is very non-obvious.

Apart from that: WTF is your pseudo-code supposed to be doing? At best, it performs a calculation and returns the results. It doesn't do anything getting close to "rubber banding".

----------

lilo777 said:
You can compare BOM of any iPhone in the last three years to the BOM of any HTC On or Samsung Galaxy S phones in any of these years. All three iPhone BOM are lower than any of the BOMs for these Android phones (pick any year). Which is not a surprise since iPhone has half RAM, smallish screen, small battery, no NFC etc.

Or Samsung is just not very good at reducing the cost of the items they use? Perhaps they are spending too much money on marketing and there's nothing left for cost reduction?

lazard · Jun 18, 2013

pirg said:
Toggles are an obvious thing to do. Isn't that how android users discount all apple features?

so obvious that it only took Apple 5 years to implement it into their OS.

MegamanX · Jun 18, 2013

gnasher729 said:
And totally missing the point. This patent is not about "how to implement rubber banding", but about "how to give a user feedback that a scrolling operation has reached the limit of the possible range". For many years, the only known method was either (a) no feedback at all or (b) a "beep" as the feedback. I have implemented both old methods in 1984, and found neither very satisfactory. If it had been obvious that this could be done better, I would have done it better in 1984. About 26 years since _I_ first noticed the problem, and Apple patented a solution, that implies very much that the solution is very non-obvious.

Apart from that: WTF is your pseudo-code supposed to be doing? At best, it performs a calculation and returns the results. It doesn't do anything getting close to "rubber banding".

The next question is why did they go with those options.

A big reason why rubber banding would not be used is due to system resources. As time goes on you tend to follow what was set as the norm but a big limiting factor on scrolling was limitation on system resource. Rubber banding is just quite simply a lot heavier on system resource.

As for rubber banding all it would be is a calculation.

FloatingBones · Jun 18, 2013

MegamanX said:
A big reason why rubber banding would not be used is due to system resources. As time goes on you tend to follow what was set as the norm but a big limiting factor on scrolling was limitation on system resource. Rubber banding is just quite simply a lot heavier on system resource.

This makes no sense. Rubber banding takes the same amount of resources as scrolling. If you think it's "a lot heavier on system resource", you should explain why.

MegamanX · Jun 18, 2013

FloatingBones said:
This makes no sense. Rubber banding takes the same amount of resources as scrolling. If you think it's "a lot heavier on system resource", you should explain why.

It due to the heavier calculation required along with the redrawing. It is not linear so you have a speed rate which it has to do it.

Add to it you have to load extra crap for what is basicly eye candy. System resource for the longs time were very limited. So why candy is dumped.

Also if you look at how scrolling generally works you move at set increments. Older days it is 1 line at a time. It is not this smooth action but jumpy.

In terms of code that bounce back is just a lot of extra movements and redraw for pure 100% eye candy. It loading and programming for extra crap.

Also the scrolling part does not fall on the GPU. The rubber banding generally is a GPU have only started in the past few years getting any decent power.

US Marine · Jun 18, 2013

gnasher729 said:
And totally missing the point. This patent is not about "how to implement rubber banding", but about "how to give a user feedback that a scrolling operation has reached the limit of the possible range". For many years, the only known method was either (a) no feedback at all or (b) a "beep" as the feedback. I have implemented both old methods in 1984, and found neither very satisfactory. If it had been obvious that this could be done better, I would have done it better in 1984. About 26 years since _I_ first noticed the problem, and Apple patented a solution, that implies very much that the solution is very non-obvious.

Apart from that: WTF is your pseudo-code supposed to be doing? At best, it performs a calculation and returns the results. It doesn't do anything getting close to "rubber banding".

And you totally missed the joke. I swear, Apple fanboys are some of the most humorless folks on the planet. Just take a look at all the butthurt in the thread about the new Microsoft ad campaign using Siri. Wowzer...

FloatingBones · Jun 18, 2013

MegamanX said:
It due to the heavier calculation required along with the redrawing. It is not linear so you have a speed rate which it has to do it.

This isn't an explanation; it's hand-waving.

The calculation of the damped motion when rubber-banding is trivial and takes nominal time to compute.

Add to it [...]

In order to have an "it", you've gotta explain what it is!

Rubber-banding works just fine on my lowly 2g iPad Touch.

MegamanX · Jun 18, 2013

FloatingBones said:
This isn't an explanation; it's hand-waving.

The calculation of the damped motion when rubber-banding is trivial and takes nominal time to compute.

In order to have an "it", you've gotta explain what it is!

Rubber-banding works just fine on my lowly 2g iPad Touch.

And I was talking about why you did not see it before.

1 gen iPad heck iPod dump legacy issues and had much better hardware specs that before.
The original post referred to how it worked before (beeping stop and so on). That was more from limited resources at the time. Means no GPU, limited cpu power. After that you get a standard pattern.

As for the programming part it is more complicated calculations and you have it shoved threw a loop as it is a different movement amount threw each cycle threw the loop.
This adding to a lot more redrawing of the entire rubber banding. Something shoved off to GPU.

Now I am trying to make it as simple as possible but just because something looks easy to do does not mean anything when it comes to programming. Rubber banding code wise is not something easy to do. As soon as you no longer have it linear movement speed it gets a little tricker. Linear is an easy algorithm to code. Rubber banding a little tricker to code.

FloatingBones · Jun 18, 2013

MegamanX said:
As for the programming part it is more complicated calculations and you have it shoved threw a loop as it is a different movement amount threw each cycle threw the loop.
This adding to a lot more redrawing of the entire rubber banding. Something shoved off to GPU.

This still makes absolutely no sense. All you're doing is slowing down the scroll rate by the damping factor; there's nothing to shove off on a CPU or a GPU.

Now I am trying to make it as simple as possible

Quite simply, you are failing to make your point.

just because something looks easy to do does not mean anything when it comes to programming.

And the opposite is also true: just because you think something is difficult doesn't mean anything when it comes to programming.

Rubber banding code wise is not something easy to do.

Who other than you says that? Please provide a reference or three.

As soon as you no longer have it linear movement speed it gets a little tricker. Linear is an easy algorithm to code. Rubber banding a little tricker [SIC] to code.

It is a bit trickier to code, but the actual computation is essentially unchanged. The scrolling is damped, and the calculation of the damping factor is based on the distance beyond the end you're attempting to scroll. If you think that calculating that damped movement is a difficult problem, you need to provide some rigorous analysis why. And you then need to explain why the rubber banding works just fine on my 2g iPod Touch.

Please pardon my typo in the previous message where I said "iPad Touch".

MegamanX · Jun 18, 2013

FloatingBones said:
It is a bit trickier to code, but the actual computation is essentially unchanged. The scrolling is damped, and the calculation of the damping factor is based on the distance beyond the end you're attempting to scroll. If you think that calculating that damped movement is a difficult problem, you need to provide some rigorous analysis why. And you then need to explain why the rubber banding works just fine on my 2g iPod Touch.

Please pardon my typo in the previous message where I said "iPad Touch".

As establish before it was ask why did it take until apple to do it. Hardware limitation is a fact there.

first gen iPhone had more hardware and GPU power than anything else on the market at the time. A lot more. It also did not have any legacy baggage to deal with. That covers why your iPod touch has no issue.

He also ask why beeping and stopping. Well that pattern was set up in the 80's which has even less power but to top it off mouse and keyboard (even APPLE) does not use rubber banding there but that is not set up for scroll wheels.

The rubber banding is a touch interface and that as already explain was hardware. iPod has a lot more CPU and GPU power than others on the market.

pirg · Jun 18, 2013

lazard said:
so obvious that it only took Apple 5 years to implement it into their OS.

That doesn't make sense. Things like slide to unlock are often labeled as "obvious" but we're now suggesting that toggles are not an obvious thing?

FloatingBones · Jun 18, 2013

MegamanX said:
Rubber banding code wise is not something easy to do.

And I replied: "Who other than you says that? Please provide a reference or three."

You failed to address my question. If you have some proof that rubber-banding actually is an order of magnitude more complex to display than scrolling, you should provide it.

If you have no such proof, then please just say that. Ignoring the question does not make it go away. Thanks.

inscrewtable · Aug 24, 2013

I was under the apparently mistaken idea that the rubber banding technology patent had recently been invalidated due to prior use. So I am somewhat surprised by this report.

Key Claim of Apple's 'Rubber Banding' Patent Used Against Samsung Confirmed

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