That's a specific. Who knows if we'll have a dell around to support the purchase.
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Why would anyone buy a Retina Macbook Pro vs Dell XPS 15?
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That's a specific. Who knows if we'll have a dell around to support the purchase.
I'd be willing to bet a lot Dell will still be around 3 years from now. Also, if Dell were to go bankrupt at some point, it would simply be bought by another manufacturer and your support would continue much like when IBM sold their PC division to Lenovo.
reliability is a big factor. I myself am a PC and a mac user. My main desktop at home is a PC and will remain being a PC because I play games and stuff, however laptop will be a mac. The mac experience is much better, I get less issues. My friend got a dell laptop around 2011 which is the same time I got my macbook pro. Fast forward 2 years later my MBP still runs 100% fine no problem while his Dell has tons of issues of huge lags, horrible battery life to the point where he just wants a new laptop.
I think someone needs to do some hard core comparison reviews on these two systems. If it's out there I haven't seen it.
A lot of people's opinions are based on Dells previous systems. While solid arguments this new XPS does seem to look well put together and more "premium" then previous models. I guess only time will tell on reliability.
For us folks that will dual boot in OSX and Win that would be great information for us.
A lot of people's opinions are based on Dells previous systems. While solid arguments this new XPS does seem to look well put together and more "premium" then previous models. I guess only time will tell on reliability.
For us folks that will dual boot in OSX and Win that would be great information for us.
There are probably very few people out there with access to an XPS 15, or M3800. Bokeh is the only one that I know about. Dell has the XPS 15 as shipping Nov. 18th at this point. Reviewers might get their hands on it earlier. If you want something now the choice is easy. Price rules out the 15 inch Macbook for me, but I'm eagerly waiting for good reviews on the 13 inch version. I get better portability, and if I need extra juice the money I save can be spent on a desktop more powerful than any Macbook will be in the foreseeable future.
I will have to say that my experience with Apple contra Dell favours Apple, not that Apple's products have been flawless.
Aluminum
The research I have done points to Apple using either 6061 or 2024 aluminum alloys. Both are used in airplanes, so both fit the Apple marketing statement of aircraft aluminum. 2024 cannot be welded except through friction welding, but is better for machining. 2024 is also very resistant to fatigue. 6061 is much cheaper and easier to anodize.
So which of the two does Apple use in the Unibody MBP? 6061. Quoting Jony Ive who is Apple’s Senior VP of design “The back of iPhone 5 is made of anodized 6000 series aluminum — the same material used in Apple notebooks — with inlays along the top and bottom made of ceramic glass (on the white and silver model) or pigmented glass (on the black and slate model).”
When Apple’s Senior VP of design says the Unibody is made from 6000 series aluminum, I tend to say that argument is settled.
You might want to take back some of the very negative things you said about using 6061 Aluminum. Not saying you have to, just a suggestion. There are many types of 6061 aluminum and many ways to machine or forge it. Apple does some amazing things with their machining and laser cutting process. Apple gets the most out of the material and their Unibody was revolutionary in many ways. Just awesome.
Source - http://www.idownloadblog.com/2012/09/12/how-the-iphone-5-is-made/
In the XPS15/M3800, it looks like the main internal structure is a magnesium alloy. There is an aluminum frame around the edge. Magnesium allows are lighter than aluminum, but usually not as strong. My guess is that the aluminum frame bracing is there to protect the system from side and corner impacts while making the system more rigid.
The display lid is one solid piece of aluminum. I have a small ding on the corner of the lid and the metal deformed slightly. No cracks at all. This leads me to think the aluminum in the XPS15/M3800 is one of the less brittle types. The small ding looks a lot like a small ding I have in my 2010 15” MBP.
The bottom panel is woven carbon fiber with some copper shielding. It is very rigid. It is attached around the edges by the same type of small torx screws that Apple uses. I know Apple switched to pentelobe, but the screw is still around the same size. There are also two larger phillips screws that attach under the door on the bottom.
I admire that Apple is able to do with aluminum. The systems are functional, strong, and look great. Dell uses a mix of aluminum, magnesium, and carbon fiber to get the same result and thinness. The carbon fiber will insulate heat better, but the Apple will have the benefit of being able to use the whole system to get rid of heat. I personally like the way the Dell looks, but I respect your opinion of the way the Dell looks as well.
Displays and Calibration
MacBook Pros come with display profiles built in. As long as the panel that shipped with the individual machine you are using is within the spec used to create the profile, you should be ok. I am not sure if Apple has individual curves for the LG and Samsung panels that ship in the Retina MBP. I have read plenty of forum posts about the Samsung and LG panels each having their own look. If they are both hitting their spec for native white balance, gamma curve, contrast, and color response, you should be fine with the built-in profile for non color critical work.
As the display response change over time, you can use the built-in Apple Display Calibration Utility to visually recalibrate the display. This is great free way to correct any color tints that you might see. You can also correct the response curve of the panel if it has shifted over time.
If you really want to do color critical work, you need to calibrate the panel on your system whether it is a Mac or a PC. There are plenty of tutorials out there. I like this one since it talks about visual calibration and hardware calibration - http://mac.tutsplus.com/tutorials/customization/how-to-calibrate-your-macs-display/ .
I understand that you are fine with the built-in color profile on the Macs that you use. There is nothing wrong with being happy with what you have.
I do disagree with you saying that the IGZO screen in the XPS15/M3800 is “uncalibrated and that it will be unusable by creative professionals and look incredibly terrible”.
Uncalibrated, the IGZO screen looks good. The white point is close to 6500k. The gamma curve is close to 2.2. Contrast is 800:1. Brightness is just over 400cd/l2. Calibrated, it is one of the most accurate panels I have seen in a notebook or on a desk.
The Retina panel on the MBP has excellent color accuracy. I have seen measured Delta E’s of 1.04 on the Samsung panel. I have seen Delta’s of 1.4 and 1.95 published as well.
The Sharp IGZO panel also has excellent color accuracy. The Delta E on the system I have is 1.0. As more XPS 15 and M3800 systems are reviewed, we will see how well panels measure across a variety of panels.
When calibrated, the measurements show the Retina and IGZO panels are effectively equals when it comes to color quality, contrast, and color gamut. The Samsung Retina panel might be better than the LG Retina panel, but you will know much more about that.
The IGZO panel is brighter and uses less power. It is probably why Apple is looking at putting IGZO screens into their 2014 iPads and MBPs. (http://www.extremetech.com/computin...-to-cut-power-consumption-boost-image-quality )
The IGZO screen also has a slight resolution advantage since it runs at 3200x1800. Having a touch panel is more of a personal preference than an advantage in my opinion.
Creative professionals may complain about the Retina and IGZO displays only covering sRGB, but none of them will complain about a calibrated Delta of 1. That is a big deal.
Windows users need to thank Apple for the new generation of high ppi displays. Had Apple not pushed panel manufacturers last year on the MBP and in years past in phones and tablets, who knows how many years we would still be waiting for these displays.
Disks
The PCIe disk in the MBP is awesome. Measured performance over 750Mb/s and possible performance up to 800Mb/s is awesome. The XPS 15/M3800 will top out in the mid 500Mb/s range with either the mSata or 2.5” SSD drive. Until mSata breaks the 512Gb size barrier, there will be no way to match the 1Tb of storage in the MBP and still have the 9 cell battery.
I will have to try running the mSata and 2.5” SSD in RAID0. I have broken 1Tb/s with a pair of 2.5” SSDs, but have not tried raiding mSata and a regular SSD. Even if RAID pushes performance of the XPS 15/M3800 past the MBP, you will have to trade off battery life to do it.
The Other Stuff
I want to say again that I respect your opinions and experience with MBPs. I apologize for the name calling. I will make sure to stick to facts and things that can be backed up with references. If there is something I am unsure about, I will make sure to say so.
I don’t want to cause issues for you or the board. I apologize if I caused any. I know that I can be biased towards Dell’s Precision systems, but they are what I use most often. I know a lot of Dell’s lower lines have more problems, but I never see most of those machines. Most of the Precisions that I have had are still running. My 2010 MBP15 is also still running strong and still has great battery life as well.
The research I have done points to Apple using either 6061 or 2024 aluminum alloys. Both are used in airplanes, so both fit the Apple marketing statement of aircraft aluminum. 2024 cannot be welded except through friction welding, but is better for machining. 2024 is also very resistant to fatigue. 6061 is much cheaper and easier to anodize.
So which of the two does Apple use in the Unibody MBP? 6061. Quoting Jony Ive who is Apple’s Senior VP of design “The back of iPhone 5 is made of anodized 6000 series aluminum — the same material used in Apple notebooks — with inlays along the top and bottom made of ceramic glass (on the white and silver model) or pigmented glass (on the black and slate model).”
When Apple’s Senior VP of design says the Unibody is made from 6000 series aluminum, I tend to say that argument is settled.
You might want to take back some of the very negative things you said about using 6061 Aluminum. Not saying you have to, just a suggestion. There are many types of 6061 aluminum and many ways to machine or forge it. Apple does some amazing things with their machining and laser cutting process. Apple gets the most out of the material and their Unibody was revolutionary in many ways. Just awesome.
Source - http://www.idownloadblog.com/2012/09/12/how-the-iphone-5-is-made/
In the XPS15/M3800, it looks like the main internal structure is a magnesium alloy. There is an aluminum frame around the edge. Magnesium allows are lighter than aluminum, but usually not as strong. My guess is that the aluminum frame bracing is there to protect the system from side and corner impacts while making the system more rigid.
The display lid is one solid piece of aluminum. I have a small ding on the corner of the lid and the metal deformed slightly. No cracks at all. This leads me to think the aluminum in the XPS15/M3800 is one of the less brittle types. The small ding looks a lot like a small ding I have in my 2010 15” MBP.
The bottom panel is woven carbon fiber with some copper shielding. It is very rigid. It is attached around the edges by the same type of small torx screws that Apple uses. I know Apple switched to pentelobe, but the screw is still around the same size. There are also two larger phillips screws that attach under the door on the bottom.
I admire that Apple is able to do with aluminum. The systems are functional, strong, and look great. Dell uses a mix of aluminum, magnesium, and carbon fiber to get the same result and thinness. The carbon fiber will insulate heat better, but the Apple will have the benefit of being able to use the whole system to get rid of heat. I personally like the way the Dell looks, but I respect your opinion of the way the Dell looks as well.
Displays and Calibration
MacBook Pros come with display profiles built in. As long as the panel that shipped with the individual machine you are using is within the spec used to create the profile, you should be ok. I am not sure if Apple has individual curves for the LG and Samsung panels that ship in the Retina MBP. I have read plenty of forum posts about the Samsung and LG panels each having their own look. If they are both hitting their spec for native white balance, gamma curve, contrast, and color response, you should be fine with the built-in profile for non color critical work.
As the display response change over time, you can use the built-in Apple Display Calibration Utility to visually recalibrate the display. This is great free way to correct any color tints that you might see. You can also correct the response curve of the panel if it has shifted over time.
If you really want to do color critical work, you need to calibrate the panel on your system whether it is a Mac or a PC. There are plenty of tutorials out there. I like this one since it talks about visual calibration and hardware calibration - http://mac.tutsplus.com/tutorials/customization/how-to-calibrate-your-macs-display/ .
I understand that you are fine with the built-in color profile on the Macs that you use. There is nothing wrong with being happy with what you have.
I do disagree with you saying that the IGZO screen in the XPS15/M3800 is “uncalibrated and that it will be unusable by creative professionals and look incredibly terrible”.
Uncalibrated, the IGZO screen looks good. The white point is close to 6500k. The gamma curve is close to 2.2. Contrast is 800:1. Brightness is just over 400cd/l2. Calibrated, it is one of the most accurate panels I have seen in a notebook or on a desk.
The Retina panel on the MBP has excellent color accuracy. I have seen measured Delta E’s of 1.04 on the Samsung panel. I have seen Delta’s of 1.4 and 1.95 published as well.
The Sharp IGZO panel also has excellent color accuracy. The Delta E on the system I have is 1.0. As more XPS 15 and M3800 systems are reviewed, we will see how well panels measure across a variety of panels.
When calibrated, the measurements show the Retina and IGZO panels are effectively equals when it comes to color quality, contrast, and color gamut. The Samsung Retina panel might be better than the LG Retina panel, but you will know much more about that.
The IGZO panel is brighter and uses less power. It is probably why Apple is looking at putting IGZO screens into their 2014 iPads and MBPs. (http://www.extremetech.com/computin...-to-cut-power-consumption-boost-image-quality )
The IGZO screen also has a slight resolution advantage since it runs at 3200x1800. Having a touch panel is more of a personal preference than an advantage in my opinion.
Creative professionals may complain about the Retina and IGZO displays only covering sRGB, but none of them will complain about a calibrated Delta of 1. That is a big deal.
Windows users need to thank Apple for the new generation of high ppi displays. Had Apple not pushed panel manufacturers last year on the MBP and in years past in phones and tablets, who knows how many years we would still be waiting for these displays.
Disks
The PCIe disk in the MBP is awesome. Measured performance over 750Mb/s and possible performance up to 800Mb/s is awesome. The XPS 15/M3800 will top out in the mid 500Mb/s range with either the mSata or 2.5” SSD drive. Until mSata breaks the 512Gb size barrier, there will be no way to match the 1Tb of storage in the MBP and still have the 9 cell battery.
I will have to try running the mSata and 2.5” SSD in RAID0. I have broken 1Tb/s with a pair of 2.5” SSDs, but have not tried raiding mSata and a regular SSD. Even if RAID pushes performance of the XPS 15/M3800 past the MBP, you will have to trade off battery life to do it.
The Other Stuff
I want to say again that I respect your opinions and experience with MBPs. I apologize for the name calling. I will make sure to stick to facts and things that can be backed up with references. If there is something I am unsure about, I will make sure to say so.
I don’t want to cause issues for you or the board. I apologize if I caused any. I know that I can be biased towards Dell’s Precision systems, but they are what I use most often. I know a lot of Dell’s lower lines have more problems, but I never see most of those machines. Most of the Precisions that I have had are still running. My 2010 MBP15 is also still running strong and still has great battery life as well.
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Bokeh, can I ask you a simple question?
For the haswell XPS 15, or the M3800 - Do their lids (screen) open with one hand, smoothly like a macbook? Or do I have to use two hands to open the screen, one on the screen, one on the base of the notebook?
Thanks sir.
Thanks for all the details Bokeh. It seems like Dell may have just pulled off a system with the same build quality and longevity as a MBP.
I've owned four Dell products over the last decade before learning my lesson. Had to stop buying them because of the (lack of) build quality.
If you don't choose the MBP, at least pick from a manufacturer's lineup that is also known for build quality. Thinkpads, Elitebooks and whatnot...all heads above anything Dell has to offer.
If you don't choose the MBP, at least pick from a manufacturer's lineup that is also known for build quality. Thinkpads, Elitebooks and whatnot...all heads above anything Dell has to offer.
Yes, you can open with with one hand, but the hinge on the M3800 is stiffer than the one on my 2010 MBP15. The macbook is easier to open with one hand.
What's the difference?
http://socialcompare.com/en/widget/compare-sizes/ipad-vs-iphone4-vs-mbp-vs-xps-1zrldret
Stack them to see the difference.
http://socialcompare.com/en/widget/compare-sizes/ipad-vs-iphone4-vs-mbp-vs-xps-1zrldret
Stack them to see the difference.
Build quality aside, every PC I have owned has been a pain to maintain. Every time you reinstall Windows it's a 10 hour search for drivers across 12-15 websites. Dell is one of the good ones in that respect as they have working (but potentially outdated) drivers on their website for most of their laptops. HP however is notorious for not supplying complete drivers for reinstall.
However, most PC laptops are a lot more upgradable than Macbooks, and also, you do get more hardware options.
I just don't like having to reinstall every 6 months because Windows clogs up and then having to spend 72 hours putting everything back the way it was.
However, most PC laptops are a lot more upgradable than Macbooks, and also, you do get more hardware options.
I just don't like having to reinstall every 6 months because Windows clogs up and then having to spend 72 hours putting everything back the way it was.
I haven't run into the problem with Windows clogging up but there does seem to be more maintenance with Windows than with Mac OS X. If you do the proper maintenance, you shouldn't have to reinstall the operating system frequently or at all.
Perhaps the biggest pain is running malware scans on a machine that has a large HDD.
Perhaps the biggest pain is running malware scans on a machine that has a large HDD.
I'm very impressed with this new XPS 15.
When i bought my 15" rMBP over a year ago there was just no equivalent PC. Nobody else offered great gaming power, great battery life and portability in one package so i just got the 2.6GHz rmbp and bootcamped windows on it.
Very good to see dell introducing this, it's $1000 cheaper than the equivalent rMBP (Australia) and has a higher resolution screen with touch! (Although a 0.1Ghz slower cpu)
Especially after the terrible support i've received from apple and generally poor quality of this laptop, once this retina dies (i'm sure it'll be soon) i'm definitely getting a Dell.
To be fair i've owned a dell before which had the hdd and a fan die, and i've had a powerbook g4 that had 0 problems whatsoever and lived for a solid 7 years. But I feel Apples quality has dropped significantly since those days, and PC manufacturers have improved their quality significantly and now they're sitting about equal.
Edit: Also i love the upgradability of the XPS. Probably wouldnt have to buy the extended warranty like i had to for this rMBP (bringing total savigns to $1350)
When i bought my 15" rMBP over a year ago there was just no equivalent PC. Nobody else offered great gaming power, great battery life and portability in one package so i just got the 2.6GHz rmbp and bootcamped windows on it.
Very good to see dell introducing this, it's $1000 cheaper than the equivalent rMBP (Australia) and has a higher resolution screen with touch! (Although a 0.1Ghz slower cpu)
Especially after the terrible support i've received from apple and generally poor quality of this laptop, once this retina dies (i'm sure it'll be soon) i'm definitely getting a Dell.
To be fair i've owned a dell before which had the hdd and a fan die, and i've had a powerbook g4 that had 0 problems whatsoever and lived for a solid 7 years. But I feel Apples quality has dropped significantly since those days, and PC manufacturers have improved their quality significantly and now they're sitting about equal.
Edit: Also i love the upgradability of the XPS. Probably wouldnt have to buy the extended warranty like i had to for this rMBP (bringing total savigns to $1350)
I'll take the machine with the OS that doesn't need regular rebooting, and doesn't slow to a crawl if I don't reboot regularly.
I'll take the machine that doesn't compromise my identity, or flood my computer with spyware and porn on one errant click from an 8 year old kid who doesn't know better.
I'll take the machine with a straightforward interface whose core code isn't from 1995, candy coated to make it seem newer. The cobbled genetics of Windows 8/7/Vista/XP/98/95 is kind of a joke.
I'll take the machine whose OS upgrades will generally make it faster for the next ~3 years, not test its limits in 1-2 years.
I'll take the machine I can easily recoup at least 50% of the cost of when I sell it in a few years.
I'll take the machine from the company whose vision informs it from the ground up, and who oversees the entire user experience, from mouse click to file management.
I'll take the machine with a one stop customer service model. Time and time again, XYZ Computer blames Microsoft for technical issues, and recommends you call them, while Microsoft tells you it's XYZ Computer fault.
I'll take the machine that doesn't compromise my identity, or flood my computer with spyware and porn on one errant click from an 8 year old kid who doesn't know better.
I'll take the machine with a straightforward interface whose core code isn't from 1995, candy coated to make it seem newer. The cobbled genetics of Windows 8/7/Vista/XP/98/95 is kind of a joke.
I'll take the machine whose OS upgrades will generally make it faster for the next ~3 years, not test its limits in 1-2 years.
I'll take the machine I can easily recoup at least 50% of the cost of when I sell it in a few years.
I'll take the machine from the company whose vision informs it from the ground up, and who oversees the entire user experience, from mouse click to file management.
I'll take the machine with a one stop customer service model. Time and time again, XYZ Computer blames Microsoft for technical issues, and recommends you call them, while Microsoft tells you it's XYZ Computer fault.
So youre getting the Dell? Sad to see you go but I wish you the best of luck with your pc!
I know a friend who has a dell that had his internal LCD break for no apparent reason (no knock or extra pressure added)
Nope nope nope, not dell.
Nope nope nope, not dell.
I don't know where you are seeing $1000 difference in price. Maybe its just AUS, but in the US... I see the XPS 15 config: 4702HQ/ 16GB ram/512 SSD/ 750M for $2299. That's the equivalent of the high end base MBP 15. I get that for $2399. Without edu pricing it would be $2599. So at most its $300 different, not $1000.
Dell has edu pricing + coupon to get their model down to $2100 before tax... so, effectively cancels out Apples edu discount.
So $2100 before tax vs $2399 before tax. That's still only $300 difference, not $1000
I have a highly technical change they need to make.
Change the brand name.
Having seen Dell operate under the 'pile it high sell it cheap' method of computing for years it has created a nasty taste in the mouth when buying a Dell. They just didn't seem to care. In 2008 I was working in the graphics supercomputing department and we bought the top of the line Dell workstation laptops. They weighed a ton but had amazing specs. When we received them they had the cheapest nastiest screens, keyboards and trackpads, and this was on a £3500 (thats $5600 usd) machine. This is what Dell are known for, corporate boxes of cheap and nasty.
If this machine said Asus or samsung who have always seemed to try to make nice machines then with those specs it would make it a more desirable package.
ps
I can see why they haven't created a new brand as like Skoda it seems that it is easier to change the view of a brand than to create a new brand. Still.... they haven't got there yet.
Change the brand name.
Having seen Dell operate under the 'pile it high sell it cheap' method of computing for years it has created a nasty taste in the mouth when buying a Dell. They just didn't seem to care. In 2008 I was working in the graphics supercomputing department and we bought the top of the line Dell workstation laptops. They weighed a ton but had amazing specs. When we received them they had the cheapest nastiest screens, keyboards and trackpads, and this was on a £3500 (thats $5600 usd) machine. This is what Dell are known for, corporate boxes of cheap and nasty.
If this machine said Asus or samsung who have always seemed to try to make nice machines then with those specs it would make it a more desirable package.
ps
I can see why they haven't created a new brand as like Skoda it seems that it is easier to change the view of a brand than to create a new brand. Still.... they haven't got there yet.
Yep. Apple charges astronomically over here. I heard apple reduced prices for the new retina MBPs in the US. Not here! Still $3,200 for the 2.3ghz 15" version.
Dells prices are pretty similar, plus if you get on the phone with them you can usually get a better deal just by asking nicely.
(Ok, $1000 was probably an exaggeration, more like $800.....STILL, save $800 and get a touchscreen)
Edit: Did the calculations, the Dell is $739.87 cheaper, WITH education discounts for both.
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I have absolutely no idea (considering the crack appeared in front of my eyes), and neither did Apple. The only idea Apple had was sending me a $1000 quote for replacing the screen (which was more than the used price on the Air).
I'll gladly take a cracked palm rest against having to buy an entirely new computer every day of the week.
I love threads like these, it really makes some people show off how they just don't know how technology works. I really see a lot more people who just have no idea about the technology they use on here more than any other computer related forum I visit.
I'm reminded of the people that didn't understand how SSD and "flash storage" are the same thing and used to keep trying to correct people.
Threads like these go a long way in continuing the "Apple users don't really know how a computer works" mythos.
I'm reminded of the people that didn't understand how SSD and "flash storage" are the same thing and used to keep trying to correct people.
Threads like these go a long way in continuing the "Apple users don't really know how a computer works" mythos.