Apples new internal drive system (not Serial ATA) but this is just testing stuff

DJ_TRicks · Nov 10, 2002

from my freind in apple i was told that apple is thinking and has a working prototype of the new IBM processor computer The 64 bit PPC chip. But what apples wants to do instead of using Serial ATA
they want to use internal firewire 2b (1 gigbit a sec transferrate)
and suppoidly they are working with matrox to produce a few test firewire 2b harddrives.

now we all saw when apple tried the firewire internal in the old blue and white g3 and still had it till the graphite g4

i would hope this would be true when they come out with the new chip tower line

robbieduncan · Nov 10, 2002

Matrox? Maxtor maybe

I'm not sure it's even worth correcting your errors - you seem to be a one person rubish generator. Anyway Matrox make graphics cards, Maxtor make harddrives. These little slips make your so called rumors look a little less credible!

[Edit]Correct me spelling whilst correcting another - slap me down with a wet fish![/edit]

Nipsy · Nov 10, 2002

FireWire hard drives huh?

You are aware there is no such thing as a "FireWire HD"?

You're trying to tell me that there will be FW2 HDs, even though there are no FW1 HDs? Or are you trying to convince us all that Apple will be adding bridge chipsets to internal drives, in order to increase complexity and potential for error.

FireWire is not a drive control protocol. This means that FireWire encolsures have a bridge (often an Oxford 911) which translates the signal on the wire back into ATA commands! I suppose it is better than ethernet drives...

Please research the "rumors" you intend to invent a little bit more...

Sun Baked · Nov 10, 2002

DJ TRicks would you mind reposting these hardware and software threads at Mac Achaia section @ Ars Technia?

DJ_TRicks · Nov 10, 2002

you know what deal with it

i dont take kindly to being mocked i have trouble with spelling yes i know this but its not because i dont take time with what im typing. im sick and tired of you guys saying im just blowing smoke you know what its a rumors that i post ok rumors and also things that i hear from people i trust and know well so if you dont belive me thats fine.

and i dont make up what i hear.

i really hate people who just find it fun to mock a person just because he said something you find to stupid to belive or anything like that.

and my spelling errors i try to fix but spell check dosnt always find them so why dont you just kiss my ass.

i post what i hear from my freinds who work for apple and for other companies related with apple.

As i said the firewire internal harddrive system is an alpha prototype only A PROTOTYPE!!!!!

i know how firewire works and i know how ATA works
so i dont need a lesson from *******s who think how they are all higher and mighty then me.

im just posting what i hear and this is what this is for am i not right?

its called Mac Rumors
not Mac TOTALLY GOING TO HAPPEN NEWS AND INFORMATION
if you want that go to http://www.MacNN.com
otherwise shutup and leave me alone when it come to what i post

you can post replies telling me how this might not be possible but instead of saying im lieing or bull****ting or telling how i post 5 of so many topics with in 15 mins tells give me an explination to why its not possible not some oh he is stupid or he list porn as an intrest or something so blatenly mean and rude
i dont do that to anyone elses post so please dont do that to mine

its just the old saying dont have anything nice to say dont say anything at all

Rower_CPU · Nov 10, 2002

Seems you have a lot to learn, DJ_TRicks.

There's a little thing called freedom of speech that allows people to say whatever they feel. Calling your "rumors" into question falls under that heading.

Just because this is a rumor-based site doesn't mean that we believe everything that is posted. Until your "rumors" have a little more backup, expect to be mocked.

Nipsy · Nov 10, 2002

First of all, Maxtor vs. Matrox is not a spelling error, it is the confusion of two very different companies.

Secondly, if you would prefer not to be mocked, you may want to slow down, and think about what you post. When you create one (or two or three) topic, you should ask yourself if they are plausible.

If someone told you we'd be getting atomic Macs that made coffee, and gave foot massages, would you post it? I hope not.

If someone told you that a protocol which is not a drive command protocol would be in testing for future Mac drives, would you post it? Apparently so.

I'm quite willing to admit that I don't know all. I don't resort to calling everyone an ******* when corrected. I believe in arguing a definsible position rationally.

You create a defensible position by extrapolating the future from reality. Holographic storage...makes sense. Molecular processors...makes sense. 10GHz Palladium porcessors...makes sense. FireWire as an internal drive control protocol...does not make sense.

In the time you spent writing your little diatribe, you could have researched you point, and come back with more information.

Instead, you started ranting. If you wanna waste your time throwing insults about, you're credibility further decreases. Insulting people is the behavior of adolescents, and the insecure. Are you one or both of the above?

Rumors are weighed on credibility...if you want to have any, you should calm down, research the feasibility of you topics, and present your ideas as imformation, free of idealism.

Now, as to why this is impossible:
FireWire is not a control protocol for drives. There is no such thing as a FireWire drive (just like there is no such thing as a USB drive). When you think of a FireWire or USB drive, you are talking about an ATA/IDE drive in a FireWire or USB enclosure. There are ATA/IDE, SCSI, and FibreChannel (a SCSI subset) drives. If someone were working on a FireWire drive protocol, even the Apple secret police could not keep it quiet, as Seagate, Maxtor, IBM, Fujitsu, & WesternDigtial woud all help design the spec.

Nipsy · Nov 10, 2002

Server Burped

MacBandit · Nov 10, 2002

Originally posted by Nipsy
First of all, Maxtor vs. Matrox is not a spelling error, it is the confusion of two very different companies.

Secondly, if you would prefer not to be mocked, you may want to slow down, and think about what you post. When you create one (or two or three) topic, you should ask yourself if they are plausible.

If someone told you we'd be getting atomic Macs that made coffee, and gave foot massages, would you post it? I hope not.

If someone told you that a protocol which is not a drive command protocol would be in testing for future Mac drives, would you post it? Apparently so.

I'm quite willing to admit that I don't know all. I don't resort to calling everyone an ******* when corrected. I believe in arguing a definsible position rationally.

You create a defensible position by extrapolating the future from reality. Holographic storage...makes sense. Molecular processors...makes sense. 10GHz Palladium porcessors...makes sense. FireWire as an internal drive control protocol...does not make sense.

In the time you spent writing your little diatribe, you could have researched you point, and come back with more information.

Instead, you started ranting. If you wanna waste your time throwing insults about, you're credibility further decreases. Insulting people is the behavior of adolescents, and the insecure. Are you one or both of the above?

Rumors are weighed on credibility...if you want to have any, you should calm down, research the feasibility of you topics, and present your ideas as imformation, free of idealism.

Now, as to why this is impossible:
FireWire is not a control protocol for drives. There is no such thing as a FireWire drive (just like there is no such thing as a USB drive). When you think of a FireWire or USB drive, you are talking about an ATA/IDE drive in a FireWire or USB enclosure. There are ATA/IDE, SCSI, and FibreChannel (a SCSI subset) drives. If someone were working on a FireWire drive protocol, even the Apple secret police could not keep it quiet, as Seagate, Maxtor, IBM, Fujitsu, & WesternDigtial woud all help design the spec.

Just to add fuel to the fire. Apple did talk about the potential of Firewire controlled internal hard drives when they released the first G4s. They mentioned this when questioned about the internal firewire port on those machines.

Nipsy · Nov 10, 2002

Originally posted by MacBandit

Just to add fuel to the fire. Apple did talk about the potential of Firewire controlled internal hard drives when they released the first G4s. They mentioned this when questioned about the internal firewire port on those machines.

But since such a beast does not exist, and is not being discussed in any of the drive related sites, I'm still not giving any credibility to this topic.

Even the iPod uses an ATA/IDE drive...

MacBandit · Nov 10, 2002

Originally posted by Nipsy

But since such a beast does not exist, and is not being discussed in any of the drive related sites, I'm still not giving any credibility to this topic.

Even the iPod uses an ATA/IDE drive...

I'm not trying to aid in this rash of rumors that DJ_Tricks has unleash. I'm just putting in my own 2cents.

I personally don't care what someone says they heard or starts as a rumor in a rumor site. This is simply because rumors are rumors and this is because they aren't facts so therefore they don't require even one shred of truth.

I'm starting a rumor right now in the middle of this thread.

Steve Jobs came to me in a dream last night and said that the replacement for the cube is going to be released at Macworld in January. It will be shaped as an obelisk and will hover around following you every where with a camera on top to watch your every move. 1984 is coming. The Obelisk Mac will have Quad ppc970 processor and 2 iTanium chips also just for good measure. It will have 1 terabyte of hard drive space on a Quadrabit Wireless Firewire. In fact everything about it will be wireless even the cpus. The thing will not need batteries simply using gravitational waves as energy to power it. It will also not need a display as it will be in constant two way communication directly with the users brain. If an unfortunate soul happens to pass between the Obelisk and the current user that person will be reprogrammed and immediately become an Apple user slave. The true innovation of the Obelisk mac comes in that the cpus are simply there to be an interface with the world wide computing cluster (more on this at another time). The real processing power will come from the user own brain which most of the time will be completely tied up in a grand scale of distributed computing for Apple. Apples distribute computing process will be in the research of human replacement androids. The androids are needed because humans are more crash prone then Windows 95 on a 486 computer with 32MB of ram.

It was one hell of a nightmare but sources that I have contacted at Apple have assured me that I will be assimilated and resistance is futile.

solvs · Nov 10, 2002

Re: you know what deal with it

Originally posted by DJ_TRicks
its just the old saying dont have anything nice to say dont say anything at all

There's another old saying - if you can't take the heat, stay out of the kitchen. And you just jumped into the oven. Sorry, there's no such thing as a firewire hard drive, as others have mentioned. Notice how new Macs don't seem to have that internal connection anymore (at least I haven't seen it, and they don't have it listed in the specs).

Mayhaps people would take you more seriously if you used CAPITOLS occasionally (what are you from M$?. That's what they do internally). And puncuation. Periods and commas are always helpful. Most people don't much care about spelling and grammar (and those that do, get over it) but with a post like this, you tend to lose credibility.

Expect a little rude skeptism here, we don't all just believe everything we hear.

Don't start getting bitchy until you can come back and rub it in our faces (if you're right, which you aren't).

madamimadam · Nov 10, 2002

Jesus there are some wankers on this site... how would any of you know if there are Firewire hard drives or not. There was a suggestion made that Apple is working on a prototype. Not only does this mean that one does not exist outside of a lab, in which case you have no way of knowing about it, but it also means that it could never happen. While it might be the next big thing for Apple it could also turn out to be nothing.

Reasons why it could happen would include the sheer speed over ATA/IDE while reasons not include the fact that on the hard drive end there would need to be a device for converting the signals into something the drive would be able to read but the speed of transport could make the time taken to convert the signal negligible when compared to the speed of the drive.

Saying this, at the moment, drives are no where near fast enough for firewire to be of any benifit, it would just be wasted bandwidth.

Why don't you people learn to discuss a topic instead of sounding like arseholes? You can suggest that a rumour is unlikely to happen without acting like complete morons.

I have a saying for you, to:
"Get your hand off it!"

G4scott · Nov 10, 2002

the saying: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" is a liberal saying. Only whiney little biznatches use sayings like that. Those sayings are for kindergarden.

As for your spell-checker, mine picks up on 'dosnt'. I also have little regard for people that I don't know well that don't capitalize their 'I's" when referring to themselves. Informally, it may work, but if you're trying to make a good impression on the rest of us, it's not working. The world is all about impressions. Don't expect for someone to make one up for you. You have to make your own...

Now, for that firewire HD thing... I do see benefits, in that you can easily put hard drives in a computer with no configuration at all. I'm not sure how fast the next version of firewire will be, but if it's faster than ATA-133, I'd say that this sounds like a good idea. Of course, the drives won't be fully firewire, since firewire is a communications thingy (standard or protocol, or whatever) It's a way to transfer data, not read hard drives. Of course, it might also result in a proprietary HD system, and that would be bad, unless it was twice as fast as anything else out there. Apple may be working on something like this, but whether or not it sees the light of day is something only Jobs knows.

madamimadam · Nov 10, 2002

Originally posted by G4scott
the saying: "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" is a liberal saying. Only whiney little biznatches use sayings like that. Those sayings are for kindergarden.

As for your spell-checker, mine picks up on 'dosnt'. I also have little regard for people that I don't know well that don't capitalize their 'I's" when referring to themselves. Informally, it may work, but if you're trying to make a good impression on the rest of us, it's not working. The world is all about impressions. Don't expect for someone to make one up for you. You have to make your own...

Now, for that firewire HD thing... I do see benefits, in that you can easily put hard drives in a computer with no configuration at all. I'm not sure how fast the next version of firewire will be, but if it's faster than ATA-133, I'd say that this sounds like a good idea. Of course, the drives won't be fully firewire, since firewire is a communications thingy (standard or protocol, or whatever) It's a way to transfer data, not read hard drives. Of course, it might also result in a proprietary HD system, and that would be bad, unless it was twice as fast as anything else out there. Apple may be working on something like this, but whether or not it sees the light of day is something only Jobs knows.

1Gb Firewire would NOT be faster than ATA 133 BUT it would support WAY more than 2 hard drives per channel. Speed is TOTALLY not an issue with hard drive buses at the moment, since an IDE hard drive usually can only max at about 50MB/s and has an average speed much slower mixed with the fact that it is so amazingly rare to have enough hard drives churning at a fast enough rate to max out 133MB/s.

Also, as you mentioned, Firewire hard drives would be truely hot plugable and would not need configuration and I would LOVE that to be the case with every hard drive I have to deal with.

solvs · Nov 10, 2002

Originally posted by madamimadam

Also, as you mentioned, Firewire hard drives would be truely hot plugable and would not need configuration and I would LOVE that to be the case with every hard drive I have to deal with.

We'd all love that. And actually a TRUE FireWire 2 hard drive would be very fast. Unfortunetly, they don't exist, and probably never will. Some people confuse FireWire with FibreChannel, two different things. FibreChannel hard drives are very fast (faster than SCSI), and very expensive. Not the same as FireWire, which is used as a bridge to IDE.

I'm not trying to be a jerk, merely pointing out the general wrongness of this post.

Post whatever you want, whether it's true or not, whether you heard it from some guy or are Steve Jobs himself. Just don't expect us to trust you completely, for no reason, with no history and nothing to back you up. And don't get offended if people don't believe you. This being a public forum people can be rude (although if you go too far, you can be banned).

I just have a problem with some newbie coming in and saying stuff like this, then getting mad when people ask where the proof is (or just don't believe them).

If you're right, then you can come back and rub it in our faces.

Inhale420 · Nov 10, 2002

Originally posted by Sun Baked
DJ TRicks would you mind reposting these hardware and software threads at Mac Achaia section @ Ars Technia?

heh i take it you got schooled by the big boys there?

Sun Baked · Nov 10, 2002

Nah, surprisingly not ...

Just thought it would be interesting to see what the big boys think of these rumors.

Though this weekends response to OS X on x86 was quite interesting...

Originally posted by pi radians

quote:Originally posted by Tully_Mars:
I have heard rumors about Apple porting OS X to the Intel platform. Since OS X is based upon BSD I would think that it would be quite possible to port it over.

Think of the market share Apple could gain that way.

Tully.

Hey, a dead horse! Everyone gather round with your baseball bats and give it a wallop!

If he really feels strongly about the validity of the claims he's making, he'd be able to stand up against Ars Technia scrutiny.

It's not like I'm asking him to post in their Battlefront...

Cappy · Nov 11, 2002

It seems like there are a number of people around here just waiting for someone to pounce on, beat their chest a few times, and in the end look like a moron. Granted the original poster doesn't help themself any but lets keep an open mind about some things around here.

1. It is very possible for scsi-3 commands to be used in conjunction with the 1394 spec. Look it up.

2. I believe it was Western Digital(could be wrong on it being them) back in the mid 90's who actually spent some resources on developing a 1394 harddrive. Costs and lack of marketshare pretty much killed it.

It's not impossible by any means. The real question would be the why unless there was some new technology that sped harddrives up.

As for my personal opinion I wouldn't be surprised if Apple is trying to capitalize on the one area that is still the slowest component of a computer system. That's not to say that they're looking to just slap some sort of 1394 interface on a harddrive but slapping it on some sort of enhanced unit that was much faster than the current technology. Such a thing would be a huge win for Apple.

rEd Eye · Nov 11, 2002

Sheeesh!
What a bunch of prissy schoolgirls hang out here!
What's the matter?Is someone proven ignorant if they aren't particularily articulate in the art of speaking english or nimble on a keyboard?
What is it with some of the users of this site?
It's okay to diss the rumor,but please lay off the personal attacks that are so famous around these parts!
It makes you look like *******s.

Sure makes me want to be part of the "mac" club....:roll:

GetSome681 · Nov 11, 2002

Originally posted by Cappy

It's not impossible by any means. The real question would be the why unless there was some new technology that sped harddrives up.

People here keep saying that this would sound probable if new hard drives could take advantage of the firewire speed. Get this, the next revision of FireWire we know is going to be 800 Mbps, which is roughly 100 MBps. ATA133 is 133 MBps with SerialATA starting off at 150 MBps and heading to 300+ (can't remember exact number) in the next 1-2 revisions.

I honestly don't believe that FireWire is the answer to internal hard drives.

Also, someone mentioned how an internal firewire drive would require no configuration at all. Not to start any Mac vs. PC arguments, but you can run Cable Select on almost ALL new PC motherboards. I just stick hard drives in there and they're recognized...no need to play with jumpers anymore. Not to mention that SATA will do away with jumpers for good.

Someone else also noted that if this was a possibility being developed, Apple would not have a secret hold on it. Apple does not manufacture hard drives, and therefore would be in this with one of the major manufacturers (who on average do not keep extreme secret about the technologies they have coming in the future).

My only hope is that we get SerialATA on the PowerMacs before the end of 2003, so as not to be so far behind. I believe the first set of SATA drives begin shipping very shortly, so as to be on the market for xmas.

Cappy · Nov 11, 2002

SerialATA is going to be nice but I don't know that it'll be the improvement that is truly needed on the speed side of things. The problem is still at the drive level. I'm not saying firewire is going to answer it because by itself it won't. My point is merely that if Apple figured out an edge on this with someone they might try to incorporate firewire into the picture to popularize it and make an impact on the market. Lots of geeks out there can't say no to speed especially if the price is somewhat close.

sparkleytone · Nov 11, 2002

Re: Re: you know what deal with it

Originally posted by solvs

Mayhaps people would take you more seriously if you used CAPITOLS occasionally (what are you from M$?. That's what they do internally). And puncuation. Periods and commas are always helpful. Most people don't much care about spelling and grammar (and those that do, get over it) but with a post like this, you tend to lose credibility.

Expect a little rude skeptism here, we don't all just believe everything we hear.

Don't start getting bitchy until you can come back and rub it in our faces (if you're right, which you aren't).

i think you can just plain suck it. alot of times, hell most of the time, i write without the use of capitals (get it right) because i just don't feel the need to capitalize when what is being read is understood. on the other hand, quite a few of your sentences, regardless of punctuation and/or capitals, make absolutely no sense whatsoever. so do us all a favor, quit flaming people for things such as grammar, punctuation, capitals, etc and learn to read and write in a clear manner. there is yet another "old" saying. those that live in glass houses should not throw stones.

GetSome681 · Nov 11, 2002

Originally posted by Cappy
SerialATA is going to be nice but I don't know that it'll be the improvement that is truly needed on the speed side of things. The problem is still at the drive level. I'm not saying firewire is going to answer it because by itself it won't. My point is merely that if Apple figured out an edge on this with someone they might try to incorporate firewire into the picture to popularize it and make an impact on the market. Lots of geeks out there can't say no to speed especially if the price is somewhat close.

Oh, I totally agree with you. Right now, even with SCSI drives, the speed limitations is with getting data onto and off the platters of the hard drive, and not transferring that data through the cable.

However, there are other advantages of SATA that come from the cable being so extremely short and small, such as less length for data corruption, as well as better air flow in cases. HOWEVER, I must say that with Apple's beautifully designed cases, at least with stock hard drives, cables restricting air flow is not really a problem. However, if you start throwing pci cards in there to add more hard drives, you can run into some problems. For most this isn't an issue...but for me with two 15k scsi drives as well as two ide hard drives in my g4, it's gets darn hot in there.

technocoy · Nov 11, 2002

he he he

that was good sparkleytone

that was too good

i can't quit laughing, thanks for pointing that one out!!!

just a compliment from a fellow north carolinian...
as a designer... i just hate capital letters anyway

technocoy

Apples new internal drive system (not Serial ATA) but this is just testing stuff

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