Spoilers What's on TV?

Scepticalscribe said:

They were individuals who - in some cases - held pretty high rank in the police or military, were, some of them, fairly close to retirement, but others were in their 30s, or 40s, or 50s, - and whose parents would have been alive (and serving, in some instances) during the war. Obviously, they would have been born post WW2, but with parents, (or grandparents) who had served, so family lore also informed their opinions.

These were bar conversations, late at night, close to closing time, with slow and deep and thoughtful conversation, and they were critiquing details, the old 'it was worse than that, in reality' sort of critique, and thought some of the stories were a little too pat and neat (but that is movie or TV story telling).

By contrast, these guys all loved 'Das Boot' which they thought a superb portrayal of war, and an outstanding German production. In fact, at least two of them informed me that 'Das Boot' was their all time very favourite movie (or TV series, as it was both).

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My rambling reply...
My observation is when it comes to telling a coherent war story that an audience can stand to sit though, some liberties must be taken to keep it from becoming just a rambling series of images. That's the filmmaker's job (as you know). Unbroken was 2hr 20min, but it felt longer than that. I did not need to see that much suffering to get the idea. Now that was a "they survived" and specifically "I'm tough enough to take your abuse" pow film, but honestly I have limited tolerance to watch just a "they survived" story. The individual portrayed in Unbroken was inspirational although the telling was a little flat imo. While it might just be Hollywood, I really enjoyed the plots of The Great Escape, Bridge Over The River Kwai and Stalag 17. An overriding plot in the setting makes these stories pop, not just surviving.That can be the problem, sometimes complete realism is boring.

... Except for combat which ideally is, but not necessarily coherent. For examples of realistic and/or surreal combat environments from an individual perspective, I'd say it was the Normandy invasion portion of Saving Private Ryan, the climactic firefight in Platoon, the Vietnam portion of Forrest Gump and even the crazyness of Apocalypse Now. If a battle is being scripted, to some degree it helps if it makes sense to the audience. In Generation War the focus was on these individuals, interpersonal relationships, and although the combat scenarios while limited, they were good enough to advance the story. The push into (Kursk?) was good, city fighting the Russians to take a telegraph station.

I'm sure that many Germans suffered immediately after cessation of hostilities, but this was not addressed specifically in this film. At this point the story was being wrapped up. Suffering due to weather and lack of supplies on the Western front was touched on, but the misery not dwelled on. I was ok with that. I do imagine a generation emerging from WWII suffering from PTSD.

I can remember scenes, but don't remember if I've seen Das Boot in its entirety. Maybe I'll watch it again.

vrDrew said:

It was a totally fictional story. In some respects, the way they handled the final scene, with subtitles showing the years in which the surviving characters "died" postwar may have led to that misconception.

In many respects, it is almost impossible for any German-made movie or television series to deal with the war years in a way that satisfies everybody. Generation War (a rather clumsy translation of Unsere Mütter, unsere Väter) received loud criticism from groups who felt it was wrong to show Germans being, in any way, victims of the Nazi era.

Overall I thought the production was quite good. A couple of glaring inaccuracies marred the story for me a little: German Army regulations (like those of armies everywhere) would have quite prohibited two brothers to serve in the same platoon. And (grisly as it sounds) German civilian executions usually involved decapitation via a guillotine, rather than firing squads - which were reserved for military crimes.

Those quibbles aside, Generation War is well worth the time of anyone interested in the history of the era from a German perspective.

In some respects, the best part of the production is the way it shows how widespread was the knowledge among the broader German population and military of the crimes of the Nazi state. When all your Jewish neighbors are taken away someplace, and are never heard from again, it takes a willful act of self-deception not to know that something very bad is being done.

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Thanks for the clarification. I thought it was fictional, but after seeing the comment was uncertain.

A scene where a German lady says, "They didn't even clean before leaving". I have to judge based on historical recounting and that depends on who is doing the recounting and my judgement of their motivation- honest or self serving? This is not making excuses for the Germans, however I can believe that some/many Germans knew Jews were being rounded up, and told themselves they were just being relocated/deported. Refusing to face reality? I can see that argument. When a society removes a group's humanity and makes them scapegoats for everything that is wrong, you have the leaders, the sheep who follow, and those too scared to stand up for their convictions.

Besides the perpetrators of the Nazi movement, I believe the German populace suffered on account of Nazism, emotionally, spiritually, and physically. My impression is that if you were a German who was vocally against the plan, you were going to be abused by the Gestapo. It was portrayed that disagreement and "defeatism" were punishable by incarceration and execution. I'm not implying that you are, but I won't condem the entire nation, as I don't condem Japan. In the circle of life, Internationally, friends become enemies, then friends, then enemies. The best we can do is try to understand what motivates human beings to turn into monsters and work towards solving our differences using means other than war. So far, no real success, on that front, but I'll leave that for PRSI.

Scepticalscribe said:

Re Germany, memory, complicity, dissent and re war (and mistreatment of and slaughter of the Jews), have you ever watched the (excellent) 1980s German TV series 'Heimat', which managed to give a very nuanced, and, I think credibly plausible account of that period?

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I have not. A series on the subject broadcast for the benefit of Germans or Europeans in general? An attempt to explain how a society could have let these attitudes and events take root and lead to a country's ruination?

Scepticalscribe said:

Thank you, twietee.

I thought it an outstanding TV drama, - intelligent and thoughtful and loved it.

Huntn: Heimat was made in the early 1980s, at a time when German TV was a bit chary about tackling the subject matter of German history in the 20th century - not least anything which touched on World War 2.

This is a drama which tells the story of life in a village - or, the lives of a number of characters - in a village in the Hunsruck (in the Rhineland valley) region of west Germany between the years 1918 (it opens with the end of the First World War) and 1982, when the TV series was actually made.

As is often the case with such TV dramas, the earlier episodes are better. Actually, the episodes from 1918 up until after the Second World War (including an episode which takes a very barbed look at Germany in the 1950s, and a fascinating episode set in the 1960s) are excellent. Not all of the episodes are the same length - some are longer than others, and the series, quite rightly, spends quite a while - several episodes - in the 1930s.

The episodes which deal with the Nazi era are outstanding; the series manages to subtly highlight how the Nazis were seen as the safe-guarding and defining German national identity and traditional values in the cities, but were viewed as the agents of social and technological change - a force for modernisation - in the countryside.

The episode - set in the 1930s - where the village was linked int the state telephone system was (an ongoing background set of scenes) was superb. My father, who had worked as a telephone engineer, remarked on the authenticity of some of those scenes. Likewise, the episode where the village was by-passed by the motorway (autobahn) which just happened to be built with forced labour, were superbly realised, scenes where the inhabitants of the village managed to to look too closely at what was happening, and how it was happening, (and why), and managed not to ask awkward questions.

That is not to say the majority of them were enthusiastic Nazis, or fascists; they weren't - or, only a few were; most the rest of them managed not to examine too closely what happening under their noses.

An excellent, thoughtful, highly intelligent, nuanced, subtle and a beautifully written, acted, and told drama.

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Thanks for the description! It does sound interesting.

I think the early 20th century Germany is a illustrative human psychology study how politics, economic stress, prejudice, religion, the desire to cast blame, avoid responsibility, combined with strong leadership in the wrong direction that encourages the power-hungery or feeds off the weaknesses of those who are easily influenced, swirl around until it turns into a national disaster.

Wolf Hall (PBS)- Somewhat dissapointed as we had no idea it was about Henry the VIII. Although we loved the story, we are kind of burned out on it, having seen the dynamics several times before. Henry, Katherine, Anne, Cromwell, Moore, Wolsey, etc, etc.

ritmomundo said:

I've finished Season 2 of The Americans (a bit ahead of schedule ). So far, it's great. The intensity builds slowly, but it pays off. The plot and characters are solid, for the most part. I like that Russian is spoken between characters (with subtitles) as it naturally would be, and not heavily accented English. And I find myself rooting for, who are essentially, the villains. I'm loving the spycraft involved too - the covert meets, the disguises...

I know there's a dedicated thread to this show, but I'm trying my best to avoid any spoilers until I can catch up on Season 3.

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Good idea!

Scepticalscribe said:

Ah, interesting.

I had wondered how the BBC TV adaptation of 'Wolf Hall' would translate Across The Pond.

Personally, I loved it - (and bear in mind, this is the antithesis of 'The Tudors'), but I realise that it is not to everyone's taste.

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It was not so much not to our tastes as it felt like we all ready have been down this road and I won't say I speak for everyone across The Pond.

I admit it lacks the sparkle of The Tudors, bordering on drab and wonder how much of sparkle in The Tudors can be attributed to excessive story telling versus a more appealing, but maybe less realistic style? Despite its historical inaccuracies, The Tudors felt real enough. And despite its drabness, this in itself would not be enough to shoot down WH other than our familiarity with it, possible fatique with the Tudors story, although this one is centered on Thomas Cromwell.

Wanting to be in a player in the English Court reminds me of moths fluttering around a flame.

Scepticalscribe said:

Well, I suppose that this is where we differ philosophically at that intersection where entertainment and history meet, not always entirely happily.

Now, once upon an earlier time, I used to make my living from teaching history, (and one of the things, in an even earlier life, that I taught was Renaissance, Reformation and Counter-Reformation history).

I have no problem with clever and stunning fiction that uses some sort of imagined (or even, real) history as a backdrop to telling a story - Game of Thrones is an outstanding example of this.

However, I have a huge problem with something that tries to pass itself off as history - such as The Tudors - when it is nothing of the sort, and takes huge liberties with real historical events and with real characters, or people.

Personally, I loved Wolf Hall, the lighting, setting, costumes, acting, and above all, the fidelity to the known facts yet a narrative infused with a different perspective on these same facts because it is seen through the eyes of Thomas Cromwell.

Re moths fluttering around a flame, it is worth noting how many of these characters actually died at Henry's hand, or as a result of an interpretation of his desire to remove them. While the first twenty years of his reign were relatively benign, he did develop a streak of capricious cruelty and monstrous narcissism and selfishness from around the time of the events depicted in the series.

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It was not all a big lie. They just took some liberties, I assume to make the story more concise. I realize this means nothing, but how would you feel about The Tudors if it was true to history? Their crime? Spiffing up the narrative.