Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

macrumors12345

Suspended
Mar 1, 2003
410
0
82/100 seems a bit generous, given the 10/20 for features - and the features that are lacking are fairly major.

No surround sound is just unbelievable - how can Apple justify this?

Please read the comments. Surround sound is supported. MacRumors messed up (and still hasn't corrected their mistake).
 

spicyapple

macrumors 68000
Jul 20, 2006
1,724
1
Please read the comments. Surround sound is supported. MacRumors messed up (and still hasn't corrected their mistake).
Macrumours didn't mess up. Surround sound is not supported on AppleTV because it doesn't have a Pro-Logic II decoder. Or does it? It plays back a stereo signal, it's up to the receiver or TV to decode the 2-channel audio.

Please, your level of technical knowledge is showing.
 

GregA

macrumors 65816
Mar 14, 2003
1,249
15
Sydney Australia
This is totally false - Apple TV supports Dolby Pro Logic II (aka "surround sound"). What it does not support (at this time) is Dolby AC-3 (aka "discrete channel surround sound"). It looks like the "HUGE oversight" here is made by the MacRumors review.

Digital surround (discrete 5.1 channels) is something pretty well ALL home theatre setups use. It sounds better than the 4 channels of Dolby Pro Logic 2 which most amplifiers can decode.

Not having digital surround is bad. However, it does have the hardware so we may be in for a surprise software upgrade in the next couple of months. That is my hope.
 

EricNau

Moderator emeritus
Apr 27, 2005
10,725
267
San Francisco, CA
Small market? What about all the iPod owners. Most of whom have 99% of their content ripped or downloaded as mp3's. What about all those people who have DVD collections and have ripped them to .mp4 or H.264 like I have. I'm closing in on half a TB of video in my iTunes library. A vast majority of them are ripped from my DVD collection and are not "encumbered" or proprietary in any way?
Well, considering those are illegal activities...

The main legal use for the Apple TV is to stream iTunes content to a TV, which is only meant for those who buy all of their movies or TV shows from the iTunes Store - which is still a very small market.

OK, so you've pirated all your movies and have them in your precious DivX or WMV format: A) you aren't Apple's target market and B) if you're "L337" enough to steal content you should be with-it enough to figure out how to transcode it to a compatible format.
Technically, ripping your movies to your computer from a DVD is just as illegal as pirating them.

...And for the record, I couldn't care less about either of those formats.

My Mac *IS* the media hub for my entire home and although I have been purchasing more of my content from iTMS recently a *vast* majority of it is from other sources. My Apple TV makes it very easy and convenient to access it all from my TV.

Don't buy an Apple TV. It's not for you. Big deal, you seem to be taking it as a personal insult. Go buy one of the many products out there that can do everything you want for much, much cheaper.
I'm not taking it as a personal insult, I'm being realistic. If I want to watch my movies through the Apple TV and follow the law, my only option is to purchase them from the iTunes Store (even if I already own the DVD).

I really do love the concept, but at this point in time, it's just not very practical.
 

xnu

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2004
502
1,177
I have had the ATV since Friday...
Pros-
1. easier to set up than the 42" Toshiba HDTV it is hooked up to.
2. interface is as simple as it should be, no one in my family had trouble using it. (myself-38, my wife-32, my son-8, my daughter 3 1/2.) I love the remote, really comcast's remote is obscene it has like a thousand buttons... Only problem is when I use the remote my wife's Macbook starts firing up front row. (I have work on that)
3. I have it hardwired to my home network so I can't testify to the wireless capabilities, but it was very fast syncing 26mb of data.
4. Has multiple options for syncing movies and TV show, like the last five downloaded, or unwatched.
5. music and photos are great. Caught my wife playing music through it today and was pleasantly suprised.
6. Playback has been flawless, even the trailers directly streamed. I have a $50 dvd player which barely plays dvds from netflicks, it gets hung about halfway through any movie. (its only 3 months old also.)
7. For the price it really makes me love my TV. I mean, I really only watched a couple of TV shows, football and an occassional movie. Now I really don't mind plunking down a few bucks for some stuff from the iTunes store, before I would just buy something to watch on a plane once in a while.
Cons-
1. Would be great if it were a dvr. But with comcast I already have one that works well, and I have an eyetv on a mac. Would love it if eyetv worked with it but I would think the quality of my eyetv would not be that great (SD)
2. It would be better if you could purchase directly through it.
3. Needs more content on iTunes, with better quality. I am sure blue-ray or HD disks would be better quality, but I am not running out to buy one either, not even with a game system. I already have an Xbox, PS2 and Wii and really need another game system like a tax audit.
4. 33mb of space is puny, but managed correctly probably isn't a problem. more storage would be a benefit.
5. As an Apple product it is solid, but not crazy brilliant as we all are accustomed.

Overall, I have to say I really love it, not just from a fanboy, it is just a solid product that I really never thought I would enjoy so much. Its usefullness is really amazing for $299 (+19.95 for a cable) it really brought all my media into another room of my house. Instead of watching dvd's and other things on my wife's Macbook or my Macbook Pro, or sitting in my office which I usually do, I finally get to use my widescreen tv.
 

MaximusAurelius

macrumors newbie
Mar 25, 2007
18
0
As much as I am a long-time Apple supporter, I have to say this is probably one of the most half-assed products I've seen Apple introduce in a long time.

No surround-sound support, no built-in support for older sets, a 32 GIG HARD DRIVE?!!! For movies? And TV Shows? Seriously you must be joking. Apple can do better than this. You can BUY 300GB hard drive for under $100 at a consumer rate, surely Apple get something larger than 32GB! With the exception of whatever processor they're using, I could assemble a much more marketable machine for less at a consumer price tag.

As much as I love Apple, they're going to have to come out with a new model pretty quickly to redeem me on this thing.

I totally side with Stowaway. And I am too a major Apple supporter.
To me, the Hard Drive isn't necessarily the main issue, especially because the AppleTV product is to merely hub a stream, and also because a comparable device, such as the Xbox360, sports a small 20GB Hard Drive and still is a shiner.

I strongly feel Apple TV is overpriced for its value and lacking feature (worse than a score of 10 out of 20, IMHO) in comparison to other devices. If Apple TV receives a more positive value due to some "tweakings" to get a standard 480i that does NOT come included with the product's advertised features, then the Xbox 360 downfalls will be accordingly reduced to minimum, so to speak.

If you have both a mac and an Xbox360, a software called "Connect360" will be your ultimate iLife mediator for $20 to receive full HD movies, all of your iPhoto libraries and iTunes playlists and songs (w/out iTune movies) on your full 1080p TV the way they are on your mac. You are even able to copy these media files onto your Xbox360. You can browse and play your iTunes music by song, artist, album, genre or playlist. As you add and remove content to/from your iTunes library, it keeps your Xbox360 up to date. You can even listen to your iTunes songs while playing a game on your Xbox 360. These are the following formats accepted on the 360:
Music: MP3, AAC, WAV, AIFF and Apple Lossless.
Photos: JPEG, RAW, GIF, PNG, BMP and TIFF.
Video streaming, currently only WMV+WMA files are supported (but how many macs don't have Flip4Mac installed today? besides, AppleTV restricts video formats just as much as the 360 does, so they virtually balance each other off).

To stream from a mac to an Xbox360 is as easy as:
1) Connect your xbox360 to an airport express / its own wireless card
2) Click 'Connect' through system preferences (and boom, you're on)

While AppleTV is truly absolutely zero configuration, the Xbox360 isn't that much of a lesser friendly device.

Needless to mention how the Xbox360 is a phenomenal next-generation console with excellent gaming libraries and ground breaking exclusive titles, let alone play DVDs (or HD DVDs through a separated player) with the ability to actually download and play 720p HD movies and TV shows. I understand the goal of Apple is to keep the focus of the media center on the mac, but if we only follow through such a narrow angle, then AppleTV is possibly a decent purchase.

I think that for $100 more (ok, $120 more if you include the mac software), the Xbox360 is a far more valuable streaming device for your HD / widescreen Tv. You are able to play DVDs, there is an impressive quality and quantity of download content for games and media - all on top of your streamed iLife. The Xbox360 goes natively for ALL TV formats, regardless of their format of standard, widescreen or HD, so you do NOT have to replace your TV to a widescreen one. Additionally, you are able to view 1080p with certain TVs through PC input, which isn't rare on most TVs, although I would consider the lack of an HDMI as a negligible downfall, since new HDTVs effectively blur the analog / digital quality difference.

If you consider buying a 360 as a "switch to the dark side", then you're lost.

Apple has to either drop the price or provide double the features on AppleTV.
 

GadgetDon

macrumors 6502
May 11, 2002
316
259
I have had the ATV since Friday...
Only problem is when I use the remote my wife's Macbook starts firing up front row. (I have work on that)
If you don't want to ever use front row with the MacBook, go to System Preferences, Security. There's a checkbox to disable remote control infrared receiver.

If you want to use frontrow with the MacBook with the remote that came with the laptop, there's a way to "pair" that remote up with the computer. Search apple support for pair remote.
 

longofest

Editor emeritus
Jul 10, 2003
2,924
1,682
Falls Church, VA
This is totally false - Apple TV supports Dolby Pro Logic II (aka "surround sound"). What it does not support (at this time) is Dolby AC-3 (aka "discrete channel surround sound"). It looks like the "HUGE oversight" here is made by the MacRumors review.

Dolby Pro Logic II takes a stereo signal and splits it into 5 channels. It is done in the Amplifier, not in the Apple TV. Pro Logic II is a hack job compared to discrete 5.1 surround.

In the end, Apple TV outputs a stereo signal, so the review is 100% correct. When DVD players and other media players on the market output true surround sound, the Apple TV's stereo output is still a huge omission, and I stand by my review.
 

MUCKYFINGERS

macrumors 6502a
Jun 7, 2005
769
15
CA
How can you call the Xbox 360 and PS3 competing products?

Those machines are gaming consoles w/the extras as a plus. Apple TV has a completely different audience.
 

GregA

macrumors 65816
Mar 14, 2003
1,249
15
Sydney Australia
Dolby Pro Logic II takes a stereo signal and splits it into 5 channels. It is done in the Amplifier, not in the Apple TV. While Pro Logic II is a hack job compared to discrete 5.1 surround.
Note that dolby pro logic has a single rear channel (ie same sound from back left and back right). Dolby digital not only explicitly defines what sounds go to each speaker, it has different back-left and back-right.
 

imacdaddy

macrumors 6502a
Feb 2, 2006
661
0
What resolution does your old samsung plasma actually present at.

Any chance of comparing the quality when you set your AppleTV to your plasma's native resolution? Can you pick a difference?
Thanks
Greg
ps. Same goes for 720p. If your TV is actually 720p maximum (as most plasmas are), then converting up to 1080i which your TV then has to undo may not give the best result!

My TV can display 480p/576p/720p/1080i. Not sure if it 720p max then converting up to 1080i. I can tell you that I see no difference in terms of sharpness and picture resolution/size from 720p to 1080i. The Spiderman 3 trailer looks absolutely the same in both resolution settings set in :apple: tv
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
401
Don't you think that Apple is using less than 640x480 content because that is all that they currently have available for purchase from iTunes. Apple doesn't sell 720p content so they don't demo it.

They could have at least used 640x480 content because that IS what they're selling on iTunes Store currently. But instead, they used content at resolutions lower than that.

My bigger problem however was the usage of inferior Bravia LCD displays. Sony may have a partnership and ate the cost while getting distribution support for their TV episodes (launched right along with the AppleTV) but instead of sending three crappy Bravia's they could have set up one SXRD XBR that wouldn't make the content being displayed look worse than it is.
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
401
I like the Apple TV. It works great, even over Wireless G. I've noticed that mine runs really hot. Anyone else notice this?

I noticed it and I've read a few complaints about not being able to stack it because of the temperature issues but I have thought about it and here's my response...

There are numerous audiovisual components that aren't pure solid-state and do have mechanical or other parts (e.g. tubes in an analog amplifier). No sensible audiophile (and by "sensible" I don't mean the ones that read all the snake-oil magazines like Stereophile, buying $300 cables, etc.) stacks their components like that. Each heat-generating component should be shelved individually with plenty of open air space to radiate heat off the device.

So I noticed the AppleTV casing is hot... and I began to think about it. There's actually some ingenuity involved.

The exterior casing which seems to be made from aluminum gets hot. Notice that the drive, which is not a solid state device and is the primary source of heat, is harnessed to the metal casing. This isn't by accident. The unit has no fans... so it can only cool itself by bleeding off heat by passive conduction or convection. I'll get back to the fans in a second...

The drive being harnessed to the metal casing transfers the heat to the exterior casing. The exterior casing seems to be made of a good deal of thick aluminum. Aluminum is very efficient at losing heat, rather than retaining it. This makes it an excellent exterior heatsink. The result is, without an internal fan to accelerate cooling the unit loses heat to the outside of the casing very quickly through the aluminum. Apple used aluminum in the Powerbook/Macbook Pro and G5/Mac Pro for the same reason... Those devices have fans but they run slower using less power because of the efficient design.

Here you have a device that more or less runs silent, and the fact that it feels hot on the outside means that it's losing heat to the outside, rather than keeping it entirely contained (which would certainly kill the drive).

Now, why did they design it this way? Well, as it's designed to be near your home entertainment system, running silent is a huge advantage from a design standpoint... to mitigate the ambient noise of your viewing/listening area.

To me, that's just brilliant design. Also, much of the heat radiates through the top. Note that the iMac was redesigned to vent air straight up... Heat rises, and many fan schemes have been used to port the air out all kinds of illogical locations to accomodate aesthetically pleasing designs... but Apple managed to keep it aesthetically pleasing AND use the most energy efficient method of releasing heat by not trying to fight basic physics.

Pure genius.
 

imacdaddy

macrumors 6502a
Feb 2, 2006
661
0
The biggest waste of space on this machine is the Component connectors. This is OLD technology. Apple should have skipped the component connection in favor of either s-video or composite so those with analog connections could use the damn things. That would leave space for several other interesting connections or ports. Use your imagination.
LMAO! Component connector is OLD technology? What's s-video and composite then? Seems the only OLD technology is your TV. ROTFLMAO
 

GregA

macrumors 65816
Mar 14, 2003
1,249
15
Sydney Australia
My TV can display 480p/576p/720p/1080i. Not sure if it 720p max then converting up to 1080i. I can tell you that I see no difference in terms of sharpness and picture resolution/size from 720p to 1080i. The Spiderman 3 trailer looks absolutely the same in both resolution settings set in :apple: tv
Being an old plasma, a HD must have cost a bundle.

I'm still not sure you've got what you think... but you may well! My parents got a plasma with the house they bought and I thought it was 1080i... since that's what it said on the "compatible input list" (or similar). Unfortunately, in very fine print which I saw later, it said that it only displayed those at 480. I also learned that all Plasmas are progressive (they simply can't do interlaced, so they have to convert). It seems that these days, the true HD displays are more easily identified in comparison to displays that simply can accept a HD signal (but actually downconvert it).

Anyway, good to hear if you've got an old, but-still-HD, plasma. I would assume it'd be 768lines - it certainly is not 1080i which it would have to convert to either 1080p (very expensive even today), 768p (getting cheaper now), or 480p (standard def).

ps. The important thing, of course, is how good it looks to you.
 

aristobrat

macrumors G5
Oct 14, 2005
12,292
1,403
Now, why did they design it this way? Well, as it's designed to be near your home entertainment system, running silent is a huge advantage from a design standpoint... to mitigate the ambient noise of your viewing/listening area.
Maybe they learned from reading the TiVo forums. The fan noise from the TiVo (which, in my opinion, is pretty low) really irritates some people, esp. those who spent a lot of money soundproofing their "media room". The AppleTV, compared to a TiVo, is dead slient. :)
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
401
Dolby Pro Logic II takes a stereo signal and splits it into 5 channels. It is done in the Amplifier, not in the Apple TV. Pro Logic II is a hack job compared to discrete 5.1 surround.

In the end, Apple TV outputs a stereo signal, so the review is 100% correct. When DVD players and other media players on the market output true surround sound, the Apple TV's stereo output is still a huge omission, and I stand by my review.

I've mentioned it before but I'll mention it again for clarity here...

The AppleTV does have the hardware to support AC-3. I'm guessing they'll issue software updates to enable it once they have multichannel AAC content that can be transcoded to AC-3.

The fundamental difference between Dolby Digital and Dolby Surround is not that Dolby ProLogic II decoders take a stereo signal and split it arbitrarily... I'm sorry to pick nits, but your explanation could be misconstrued to mean that there only exists a stereo signal but that isn't exactly true.

Dolby Surround is an analog quadrature. That is, the surround channel information really does exist, and it's muxed into the left and right channels just like digital AC-3 bitstreams are muxed on level. The difference is that digital encoding systems use discrete values rather than continuous values used in an analog encoding system.

Dolby Surround works like this... The surround channels are phase-shifted by 90 degrees and matrix encoded into the front left and right channels in a stereo mix. When a Dolby Digital decoder or Dolby ProLogic II decoder receives the signal, using a process similar to a fourier transform where it strips the phase-shifted signal(s) out of the left and right channels and sends the phase-shifted signal to the surround channels while the in-phase signal stays with the front left and right.

It is a true multichannel format, but encoded in an analog method using continuous values.

Other differences include the lack of metadata parameters encoded into Dolby Digital bitstreams, such as Dynamic Range Control and dialogue normalization, but when properly implemented, Dolby Surround analog has tremendous capabilities as one of the best analog perceptual coding systems ever developed and its dynamic range is just 2-3dB narrower than Dolby Digital.

If you want to hear a recording that pushes the limits of Dolby Surround, download some of Isao Tomita's works from iTunes Music Store. The analog matrix encoded surround is still there. Tomita fiddled with surround in its early days and pushes its dynamic range and channelization to limits you wouldn't imagine possible from an analog surround format.
 

Avatar74

macrumors 68000
Feb 5, 2007
1,608
401
LMAO! Component connector is OLD technology? What's s-video and composite then? Seems the only OLD technology is your TV. ROTFLMAO

He has it backwards partially because I think he may be thinking of SCART/RGB Component Video. Component Video when commonly discussed in terms of NTSC/ATSC applications is not RGB/SCART but Y/Cb/Cr Component Video. This is a newer standard for Component Video proliferating in the US, featured on some late model SDTVs and standard on most EDTVs and all HDTVs.

Actually he has a few things wrong. S-video IS a component video signal with chrominance and luminance values sent over separate wires in the cable.

With Y/Pb/Pr Component Video, the chrominance channels are subsampled often at a fraction of the rate of the luminance channel. Common color subsampling includes 4:4:4 (uncompressed HD), 4:2:2 (D9), 4:2:0 (PAL DV, and HDV consumer HD), 4:1:1 (DV25; DVCPro, DVCAM, MinDV).

Composite video doesn't separate chrominance and luminance values, and neither Composite nor S-Video can support HD.
 

digitalbiker

macrumors 65816
Apr 24, 2002
1,374
0
The Road
They could have at least used 640x480 content because that IS what they're selling on iTunes Store currently. But instead, they used content at resolutions lower than that.

This brings up an question I have with the Apple store. How do you know what quality of movie you are downloading? I don't see specs anywhere on any of the movies or tv shows.

Weren't some of these at much lower resolution for the ipod? I didn't think that they had even brought them all up to 640x480 yet but I don't see anywhere how you find out.

When they start introducing 720p movies are they going to provide multiple download choices or how is that going to work exactly?
 

imacdaddy

macrumors 6502a
Feb 2, 2006
661
0
They could have at least used 640x480 content because that IS what they're selling on iTunes Store currently. But instead, they used content at resolutions lower than that.

They should also download some HD content from Quicktime for their demos.
 

polishmacuser

macrumors 6502a
Jan 17, 2007
799
0
Los Angeles
i can only say this for the apple tv is that its useless for movies. Apple better put hd content or there is really no point to apple tv. thats all i have to say:mad:
 

aristobrat

macrumors G5
Oct 14, 2005
12,292
1,403
I don't know. My roommate bought The Prestige from the iTunes Store the other night and it looked just as good on the AppleTV->50" plasma as a regular DVD does on the same TV.
 

mangis

macrumors member
Jan 23, 2002
76
0
Wrong component connector

After taking al closer look at my TV in Japan, I found that it doesn't have HDMI at all.

I stand by my idea that the component connectors on apple TV take up too much space. On TVs in Japan, there is a connector they call a D1, which is component video wrapped up in a nice tight plug about the size of a firewire plug. It's the same quality as component, and the guy at the TV shop said it is component.

My Bose system has the same crappy 3 jack connector as the apple TV, but you can buy a cable with the RGB component connectors (that look like RCA jacks) on one end, but the newer (standard in Japan) smaller component connector on the other. There are several ways to make apple TV way smaller that were neglected. This is one. Having the 3 required plugs just for composite video is a complete waste of space when a smaller plug would have provided the same quality. Since you have to buy it seperately anyway, it wouldn't change the price of Apple TV. It would have made it better.

While I'm at it, might as well complain that a USB 2.0 port is on it instead ofa firewire port. Apple sold us for years on firewire before abandoning those who supported them in favor of the USB of the evil empire. My new Nano won't even let me connect to my mac with an older firewire.
 

imacdaddy

macrumors 6502a
Feb 2, 2006
661
0
Just downloaded the new 118MB 3 minute SpiderMan3 Trailer3 exclusively hosted by Comcast and find a fantasticly high quality example of 24fps 1280 by 720P that exceeds AppleTV's maximum allowable bit rate by a mere 454 kbps (5453.58 kbps). Here's an example of how Apple has ignored what bit rates Hollywood is using to post their movie trailers. I don't see why the appleTV maximum bit rate couldn't have been 6Mbps instead of 5 do you?

Hi Multi, what's AppleTV's maximum allowable video/audio playback settings? For kicks, I just downloaded a 720p HD clip from Quickime HD Gallery (Animusic - Resonant Chamber") but cannot be seen from the AppleTV. Total bit rate on that clip is 8793 kbps.

The Spiderman trailer had a bit rate of 5448 kbps and is viewable on AppleTV. Also the bit rate on the AppleTV's intro movie is 6024 kbps. http://www.mcwiggin.com/AppleTVHacks/Intro.mov I added this file to iTunes and AppleTV was able to play it of course.
 

GadgetDon

macrumors 6502
May 11, 2002
316
259
After taking al closer look at my TV in Japan, I found that it doesn't have HDMI at all.

I stand by my idea that the component connectors on apple TV take up too much space. On TVs in Japan, there is a connector they call a D1, which is component video wrapped up in a nice tight plug about the size of a firewire plug. It's the same quality as component, and the guy at the TV shop said it is component.

My Bose system has the same crappy 3 jack connector as the apple TV, but you can buy a cable with the RGB component connectors (that look like RCA jacks) on one end, but the newer (standard in Japan) smaller component connector on the other. There are several ways to make apple TV way smaller that were neglected. This is one. Having the 3 required plugs just for composite video is a complete waste of space when a smaller plug would have provided the same quality. Since you have to buy it seperately anyway, it wouldn't change the price of Apple TV. It would have made it better.

While I'm at it, might as well complain that a USB 2.0 port is on it instead ofa firewire port. Apple sold us for years on firewire before abandoning those who supported them in favor of the USB of the evil empire. My new Nano won't even let me connect to my mac with an older firewire.

Minor difference...at least in the US, you can find the component cables anywhere. In fact, you can use audio left/audio right/composite video cables as the component video cable.

I have no idea where I'd find that cable you describe.

The USB port is not for customer use, so why does it matter?
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.