iPod touch 1.1.1 & Week 38 are no guarantee

aidanpendragon · Oct 2, 2007

Long story short - my saga with Apple over the phone to replace my W.37 Touch was entering its 2nd week of "it'll ship in 3 days...until the next time you call, then it resets to 3 days from then."

Getting sick of this after my 4th or 5th call, I asked the phone rep to call my local store & have them hold a replacement. Of course, this turned out to be another Week 37 (but w./Macy Gray), which I insisted on testing. Even with the (stock!) 1.1.1 firmware, I could definitely see problems with the blacks.

My "smell test": does it look better if you tip back & to the left? Then the screen's bad.

I told them I couldn't accept it, and did they have any Week 38s? They had 1 (among a big batch of 37s - I actually asked for a Wk. 39). Unboxed that - first they said "if you don't like this one, we'll have to give you a full refund, since we can't open every one." The Wk. 38 was better but not great, on the meager fare that the store iTunes could provide, and didn't seem to handle friend Jay-Z well.

At home, loaded up some video I'd had problems with, and tried the "smell test" again: no dice. Not as bad as my Wk.37 w./1.1 firmware, but not great - and back-left tilt revealed much more detail, both on video and on Jay-Z.

I'm so wracked with uncertainty as to "am I just holding it wrong" that I put the Touch on top of a flat dresser & backed it with the box, so it would be guaranteed level (vertically), then looked at it head-on. It's not AS bad, but still far from great or acceptable.

So, back it goes - I'm going to do one last try with Apple (phone) for their promised refund. Hope it's a Wk. 40, at this rate. If not, I'm going to take up the Store for their generous offer of a full refund, no restock fee.

Two other observations:

-Auto-brightness definitely works on the Wk. 38/1.1.1. It registers whenever you change modes at all, even if a paused video dims & then resumes. This may be a firmware or hardware fix.

-Maybe it's the 1.1.1, but video that looked great (other than blacks) on my Wk.37 looks like absolute artifacted crap on the Wk. 38. Plus, everything is more washed out (yay hardware crutch!).

Thanks to my local Apple Store staff for their patience in unboxing not one but two replacement Touches, then still offering me a full refund, no restock if I wasn't satisfied.

aidanpendragon · Oct 3, 2007

Do you always have to tilt back-left?

IMPORTANT QUESTION for everyone with a good Wk. 38 or later - do you still get a better picture when you tilt back-left?

Even on this new one, there's a Stargate clip (for example) that has 2 characters framed from shoulders up, in jumpsuits over T-shirts. Head-on, the t-shirts shimmer, and the collar on 1 jumpsuit is very dark - you can't make out the zipper. Tilt back/away, and the shimmering gets better, but you still can't see the collar.

But tilt back-left from center, and not only does the shimmering disappear, but you can make out the collar & zipper quite clearly. The Touch obviously can do a good picture - at some angle.

So again, the question is: is this "normal" behavior? That you'll get a better image at a tilt than head-on? Apple Store genius claimed it was "within spec" when I complained.

If it is, I need to cash out and get an Archos or a (shudder) Zune or something. But if not, I may just wait until Week 45 or so. It's clear the big delays in shipping the Touch have to do with a totally re-jiggered line. They must have had far more problems than they let on, beyond the "initial batch."

jmpage2 · Oct 3, 2007

aidanpendragon said:
Long story short - my saga with Apple over the phone to replace my W.37 Touch was entering its 2nd week of "it'll ship in 3 days...until the next time you call, then it resets to 3 days from then."

Getting sick of this after my 4th or 5th call, I asked the phone rep to call my local store & have them hold a replacement. Of course, this turned out to be another Week 37 (but w./Macy Gray), which I insisted on testing. Even with the (stock!) 1.1.1 firmware, I could definitely see problems with the blacks.

My "smell test": does it look better if you tip back & to the left? Then the screen's bad.

I told them I couldn't accept it, and did they have any Week 38s? They had 1 (among a big batch of 37s - I actually asked for a Wk. 39). Unboxed that - first they said "if you don't like this one, we'll have to give you a full refund, since we can't open every one." The Wk. 38 was better but not great, on the meager fare that the store iTunes could provide, and didn't seem to handle friend Jay-Z well.

At home, loaded up some video I'd had problems with, and tried the "smell test" again: no dice. Not as bad as my Wk.37 w./1.1 firmware, but not great - and back-left tilt revealed much more detail, both on video and on Jay-Z.

I'm so wracked with uncertainty as to "am I just holding it wrong" that I put the Touch on top of a flat dresser & backed it with the box, so it would be guaranteed level (vertically), then looked at it head-on. It's not AS bad, but still far from great or acceptable.

So, back it goes - I'm going to do one last try with Apple (phone) for their promised refund. Hope it's a Wk. 40, at this rate. If not, I'm going to take up the Store for their generous offer of a full refund, no restock fee.

Two other observations:

-Auto-brightness definitely works on the Wk. 38/1.1.1. It registers whenever you change modes at all, even if a paused video dims & then resumes. This may be a firmware or hardware fix.

-Maybe it's the 1.1.1, but video that looked great (other than blacks) on my Wk.37 looks like absolute artifacted crap on the Wk. 38. Plus, everything is more washed out (yay hardware crutch!).

Thanks to my local Apple Store staff for their patience in unboxing not one but two replacement Touches, then still offering me a full refund, no restock if I wasn't satisfied.

At this point I think that the "perfect" screen on an iTouch is something that possibly does not exist. My week 38 has bad pixels and still has SOME contrast issues but is 10X better than he week 36 that I exchanged for.

Dark scenes are definitely watchable with only the occassional loss of detail in dark material.

The screens aren't perfect. It's still (in my opinion) the highest quality screen on a small device like this that I've ever seen.

If you find the screen quality unaccepteable after trying several units then the best option is probably to simply get a refund and wait for the next generation or other improvements that might occur 12-18 months from now.

gkarris · Oct 3, 2007

aidanpendragon said:
IMPORTANT QUESTION for everyone with a good Wk. 38 or later - do you still get a better picture when you tilt back-left?

Even on this new one, there's a Stargate clip (for example) that has 2 characters framed from shoulders up, in jumpsuits over T-shirts. Head-on, the t-shirts shimmer, and the collar on 1 jumpsuit is very dark - you can't make out the zipper. Tilt back/away, and the shimmering gets better, but you still can't see the collar.

But tilt back-left from center, and not only does the shimmering disappear, but you can make out the collar & zipper quite clearly. The Touch obviously can do a good picture - at some angle..

What clip are you talking about - I can check on my iPhone, the original batch being the ones with the nicest screens compared to the new iPhone's and Touch's...

aidanpendragon · Oct 3, 2007

gkarris said:
What clip are you talking about - I can check on my iPhone, the original batch being the ones with the nicest screens compared to the new iPhone's and Touch's...

Actually Stargate SG-1 TV show, Season 5, Between 2 Fires, at about 10:14-10:15 in (sorry if you thought I meant the movie; EDIT: duh, have noticed your sig before, of course you're on the same page).

O'Neill's ("two 'l's!") zipper & a horizontal seam going "in" from it are hard to see straight-on. Tilt just back, and the zipper gets clearer; but to see the seam, you have to tilt back until the picture starts to get bluish from the angle.

By contrast, a simple back-left tilt from "normal" lets you see all the details w/out getting blue.

And, if you first tilt back and have a better-but-not-great picture, then also tilting left or back-left further improves the picture.

This also can be seen at 0:25 in this episode, on Daniel's suit jacket, or around 2:39 or so (on all of SG-1's coats/uniforms, esp. fold on right of Daniel's black coat - this looks better than it did on my Wk.37/1.1, but still not great).

In fact, I've tried a few SG-1 episodes, and they're noteworthy for simultaneously having good-looking bright colors, in light scenes, with hard-to-see blacks/darks - and requiring so much tilt that you're always just a hair away from blue.

I simply don't think a product that looks just OK if you tilt it, and good only if you tilt back & away at some odd angle, is acceptable for $400. And I can't believe that's a conscious design choice or "within spec." The screen clearly CAN look good - just not in a normal human viewing angle. WTF?

gkarris · Oct 3, 2007

aidanpendragon said:
Actually Stargate SG-1 TV show, Season 5, Between 2 Fires, at about 10:14-10:15 in (sorry if you thought I meant the movie; EDIT: duh, have noticed your sig before, of course you're on the same page).

O'Neill's ("two 'l's!") zipper & a horizontal seam going "in" from it are hard to see straight-on. Tilt just back, and the zipper gets clearer; but to see the seam, you have to tilt back until the picture starts to get bluish from the angle.

By contrast, a simple back-left tilt from "normal" lets you see all the details w/out getting blue.

And, if you first tilt back and have a better-but-not-great picture, then also tilting left or back-left further improves the picture.

This also can be seen at 0:25 in this episode, on Daniel's suit jacket, or around 2:39 or so (on all of SG-1's coats/uniforms, esp. fold on right of Daniel's black coat - this looks better than it did on my Wk.37/1.1, but still not great).

In fact, I've tried a few SG-1 episodes, and they're noteworthy for simultaneously having good-looking bright colors, in light scenes, with hard-to-see blacks/darks - and requiring so much tilt that you're always just a hair away from blue.

I simply don't think a product that looks just OK if you tilt it, and good only if you tilt back & away at some odd angle, is acceptable for $400. And I can't believe that's a conscious design choice or "within spec." The screen clearly CAN look good - just not in a normal human viewing angle. WTF?

Thanks - will rip the DVD when I get home, put on my iPhone, and post pics for you to look at.

Note that some week 38's (probably a very small amount) still have a crappy screen. Get a week 39 if you really want to be sure...

aidanpendragon · Oct 3, 2007

gkarris said:
Thanks - will rip the DVD when I get home, put on my iPhone, and post pics for you to look at.

Note that some week 38's (probably a very small amount) still have a crappy screen. Get a week 39 if you really want to be sure...

Thanks!

Believe I converted that particular episode at Mpeg-4, 1000kbps.

Yeah, hopefully my last stab at an Apple replacement will net me a Wk 39 or better - as it's shipping directly out of Asia, vs. whatever stock they have in-store. If not, I'm cashing out and either waiting 2 months or getting an Archos.

gkarris · Oct 4, 2007

aidanpendragon said:
Actually Stargate SG-1 TV show, Season 5, Between 2 Fires, at about 10:14-10:15 in (sorry if you thought I meant the movie; EDIT: duh, have noticed your sig before, of course you're on the same page).

O'Neill's ("two 'l's!") zipper & a horizontal seam going "in" from it are hard to see straight-on. Tilt just back, and the zipper gets clearer; but to see the seam, you have to tilt back until the picture starts to get bluish from the angle.

By contrast, a simple back-left tilt from "normal" lets you see all the details w/out getting blue.

And, if you first tilt back and have a better-but-not-great picture, then also tilting left or back-left further improves the picture.

This also can be seen at 0:25 in this episode, on Daniel's suit jacket, or around 2:39 or so (on all of SG-1's coats/uniforms, esp. fold on right of Daniel's black coat - this looks better than it did on my Wk.37/1.1, but still not great).

Here's "Between Two Fires" at 2:39 and 10:14 on an original iPhone with a good screen. Hopefully, they'll get good screens on the new iPhones and Touches again...

aidanpendragon · Oct 4, 2007

Thanks!

I'm not 100% sure, but that's pretty much the image I get when I tilt back-left (I assume your pix are straight-on?). O'Neill's zipper & the horizontal seam running in from it are visible, and their T-shirts aren't shimmery. I can get close to that just by tilting back, but it's a hair away from blue-tint territory.

I know, I know, any Touch won't look as good as an original iPhone screen - but it's still helpful. Thanks again.

robertma1 · Oct 5, 2007

aidanpendragon said:
Long story short - my saga with Apple over the phone to replace my W.37 Touch was entering its 2nd week of "it'll ship in 3 days...until the next time you call, then it resets to 3 days from then."

Getting sick of this after my 4th or 5th call, I asked the phone rep to call my local store & have them hold a replacement. Of course, this turned out to be another Week 37 (but w./Macy Gray), which I insisted on testing. Even with the (stock!) 1.1.1 firmware, I could definitely see problems with the blacks.

My "smell test": does it look better if you tip back & to the left? Then the screen's bad.

I told them I couldn't accept it, and did they have any Week 38s? They had 1 (among a big batch of 37s - I actually asked for a Wk. 39). Unboxed that - first they said "if you don't like this one, we'll have to give you a full refund, since we can't open every one." The Wk. 38 was better but not great, on the meager fare that the store iTunes could provide, and didn't seem to handle friend Jay-Z well.

At home, loaded up some video I'd had problems with, and tried the "smell test" again: no dice. Not as bad as my Wk.37 w./1.1 firmware, but not great - and back-left tilt revealed much more detail, both on video and on Jay-Z.

I'm so wracked with uncertainty as to "am I just holding it wrong" that I put the Touch on top of a flat dresser & backed it with the box, so it would be guaranteed level (vertically), then looked at it head-on. It's not AS bad, but still far from great or acceptable.

So, back it goes - I'm going to do one last try with Apple (phone) for their promised refund. Hope it's a Wk. 40, at this rate. If not, I'm going to take up the Store for their generous offer of a full refund, no restock fee.

Two other observations:

-Auto-brightness definitely works on the Wk. 38/1.1.1. It registers whenever you change modes at all, even if a paused video dims & then resumes. This may be a firmware or hardware fix.

-Maybe it's the 1.1.1, but video that looked great (other than blacks) on my Wk.37 looks like absolute artifacted crap on the Wk. 38. Plus, everything is more washed out (yay hardware crutch!).

Thanks to my local Apple Store staff for their patience in unboxing not one but two replacement Touches, then still offering me a full refund, no restock if I wasn't satisfied.

I have a week 38 that is the exact same thing. If you tilt the right-side forward it looks better. Tilt the left side foward and dark scenes go completely black. The viewing angle is off straight ahead somehow. Is it possible the LCDs are angled wrong? I still say its some coating they put on the class.

gkarris · Oct 5, 2007

aidanpendragon said:
Thanks!

I'm not 100% sure, but that's pretty much the image I get when I tilt back-left (I assume your pix are straight-on?). O'Neill's zipper & the horizontal seam running in from it are visible, and their T-shirts aren't shimmery. I can get close to that just by tilting back, but it's a hair away from blue-tint territory.

I know, I know, any Touch won't look as good as an original iPhone screen - but it's still helpful. Thanks again.

Yea, straight on. The way the screen is supposed to be is look great straight on. I get the "negative blacks" when I tilt the screen...

If you are unhappy, definitely go get it fixed and shoot for a week 39+.

And, actually, the Touches I've seen at the Apple store have just about as good a screen as my iPhone...

davidjearly · Oct 5, 2007

aidanpendragon said:
...It's clear the big delays in shipping the Touch have to do with a totally re-jiggered line. They must have had far more problems than they let on, beyond the "initial batch."

Not clear. This is subjective again. You have no idea what is causing the apparent delay in shipping.

jmpage2 said:
At this point I think that the "perfect" screen on an iTouch is something that possibly does not exist.

Again, this a ridiculous statement. Both mine and my partner's iPod Touch displays are perfect with no dead pixels, no lack of contrast, and no dodgy viewing angles.

I think this is really quite simple and it was totally unnecesarry for the OP to start a new thread about this. If you get a bad iPod Touch, take it back and exchange it. If you get another bad one, get a refund and buy something else. But there is no need to continue posting threads like this as there are plenty of iPod Touch's that function perfectly.

David

aidanpendragon · Oct 5, 2007

davidjearly said:
Not clear. This is subjective again. You have no idea what is causing the apparent delay in shipping.

Again, this a ridiculous statement. Both mine and my partner's iPod Touch displays are perfect with no dead pixels, no lack of contrast, and no dodgy viewing angles.

I think this is really quite simple and it was totally unnecesarry for the OP to start a new thread about this. If you get a bad iPod Touch, take it back and exchange it. If you get another bad one, get a refund and buy something else. But there is no need to continue posting threads like this as there are plenty of iPod Touch's that function perfectly.

David

Do you go out of your way solely to find & criticize posts I & others make as "subjective"? There's obviously a useful troubleshooting dialogue going on here. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it. Criticizing 3 days after it's first posted is what's unnecessary.

And yes, sorry if 1 or 2 other threads discuss this. I didn't realize that until I waded through the first 5 pages of "Week 38=Good" to see some people start posting that they had bad Week 38s. I do think having to go through 4 of any product to (hopefully) get a decent one is a bit much.

Lastly, I'm getting fairly tired of your comments that whenever anyone has a bad Touch (or other Apple product), they're just being "ridiculous" or "subjective" - but because you and/or people you know have a good one, it's "objectively" good. There clearly are problems with initial runs of this product, as even ever-in-denial Apple admits. Why don't you spend your time enjoying your good Touch, rather than berating those of us unlucky enough to have bad ones?

davidjearly · Oct 5, 2007

aidanpendragon said:
Do you go out of your way solely to find & criticize posts I & others make as "subjective"? There's obviously a useful troubleshooting dialogue going on here. If you don't like it, you don't have to read it. Criticizing 3 days after it's first posted is what's unnecessary.

And yes, sorry if 1 or 2 other threads discuss this. I didn't realize that until I waded through the first 5 pages of "Week 38=Good" to see some people start posting that they had bad Week 38s. I do think having to go through 4 of any product to (hopefully) get a decent one is a bit much.

Lastly, I'm getting fairly tired of your comments that whenever anyone has a bad Touch (or other Apple product), they're just being "ridiculous" or "subjective" - but because you and/or people you know have a good one, it's "objectively" good. There clearly are problems with initial runs of this product, as even ever-in-denial Apple admits. Why don't you spend your time enjoying your good Touch, rather than berating those of us unlucky enough to have bad ones?

Corrections:

Apple has not released ANY official press release about acknowledging faulty units.

I'm not berating you. I'm trying to point out that just because you and some others have faulty/unacceptable early models of iPod Touch, does not mean that all early models are affected which is what you continue to imply.

Subjective is the only word to use to describe your comments. For example (and I admit I am paraphrasing here as I can't be bothered looking at your thread), "Stay away from week 37 & 38 iPod Touch's".

aidanpendragon · Oct 5, 2007

davidjearly said:
Apple has not released ANY official press release about acknowledging faulty units.

They're providing me with Touch #4, my 3rd replacement, and doing the same for others. This is not being done out of the goodness of their hearts. Also, the Wall St. Journal article by company mouthpiece Mossberg is as close as they'll get.

davidjearly said:
just because you and some others have faulty/unacceptable early models of iPod Touch, does not mean that all early models are affected which is what you continue to imply.

Although I can't help what you infer, what's clearly stated is that there is a higher-than-expected or -acceptable problem rate with Week 37/38 models. This is fairly well agreed-upon in these forums. If you

davidjearly said:
can't be bothered looking at [this] thread

don't then respond to things that we aren't actually saying.

davidjearly said:
"Stay away from week 37 & 38 iPod Touch's".

Again, since you can't be bothered, the actual topic was that even a Week 38 w./firmware 1.1.1 is not guaranteed to be good. But based on my experience, yes, if you don't want to risk a lot of hassle, possible multiple returns, haggling with Apple, etc., then perhaps you should avoid Wk.37/38 models.

It's my experience. It's inherently subjective. It's not presented as otherwise. Please stop belaboring the issue. Feel free to start a "my Week 37 Touch is great!!!" thread if you want to advance a different point. But please stop debating or derailing this one.

aidanpendragon · Oct 5, 2007

To gkarris:

Thanks again for the screen caps. Just tried the slightly-ridiculous exercise of holding my Touch up for comparison. Even w./the brightness up, the picture isn't 1:1 comparable to my eMac (CRT) screen (and looks better in some regards). But the one interesting thing is that I definitely get heavy shimmers on the lower half of the Touch when it's flat/flush with the screen. Tilt into the edge of blue territory, and it definitely matches your pix.

spinstorm · Oct 5, 2007

I have a WEEK 39 Touch and it STILL has the same problem! I returned my first week 37 and now I get a new one and its still rubbish!

If you go to http://appleservedup.com you will see some very useful tests for dead pixels and the negative black problem...

Below is a picture of my new week 39 touch (left) and my week 38 iPhone (right):

As you can clearly see the box is only SLIGHTLY lighter than the background on the touch BUT very light on the iPhone.

You can also just about see the blue tinge on the iPhone compared to the totally grey bar on the touch.

I have a feeling a few people who do this test may find problems with their ipods or iphones.

As I said I am going to hold off and get it serviced later on rather than play cat and mouse with Apple and hope that I get a good screen... however if anyone from Apple was reading this then I am sure you would agree this is NOT a good situation!

aidanpendragon · Oct 5, 2007

spinstorm said:
I have a WEEK 39 Touch and it STILL has the same problem! I returned my first week 37 and now I get a new one and its still rubbish.

You make me frickin' cry.

spinstorm · Oct 5, 2007

It makes me cry!

I returned my touch to London which was two hours away from me and then wait 3 weeks to get one sent from China.

And even though its a week 39 its STILL faulty!

I have actually e-mailed steve jobs to tell him about it - I don't expect a reply but it shouldnt be that way!

Dublo7 · Oct 5, 2007

I got a 38 and everything is fine, after updating to 1.1.1

gkarris · Oct 5, 2007

aidanpendragon said:
To gkarris:

Thanks again for the screen caps. Just tried the slightly-ridiculous exercise of holding my Touch up for comparison. Even w./the brightness up, the picture isn't 1:1 comparable to my eMac (CRT) screen (and looks better in some regards). But the one interesting thing is that I definitely get heavy shimmers on the lower half of the Touch when it's flat/flush with the screen. Tilt into the edge of blue territory, and it definitely matches your pix.

No problem. Now, iPhone users with recent iPhones are starting to have quality problems (mine is a week 29 original 4 Gig I got on the closeout price).

The Touches I saw at the Apple store were just about as good as my iPhone and they were week 37's.

I think there were a mix of really good and really bad screens with the Touches. Then, with this supposed firmware "fix", it makes bad screens look "okay". So, now they are probably making the Touches and new iPhones with only so-so screens to lower manufacturing costs...

robertma1 · Oct 5, 2007

Yes the phones are having issues now also. I went threw 4 before giving up in the last 3 weeks. AT&T charged me a restocking fee on each. I complained high up with Apple and AT&T credited my account.

I switched to a touch. My first one was a week 38 with negative black problems. Believe it or not it was better than 2 of the phone screens I had.

Tonight I drove out to the apple store (1 hr) and got a week 39. While there are times I can notice wierd blacks similar to the 38 neg effect, its much less of a problem. This one is a keeper. They still have room to improve upon, but I can at least say it's not an obviously defective. For whatever reason, screendoor effect seems more apparant now. Maybe because I can actually see black shades.

BTW - this screen doesn't come close to the clarity early iphone screen I have seen but I can live with it.

My review:

Music B+ : Best iPod ever but 16GB limit must be mentioned . A+ when there's more storage but I don't mind it one bit though. I use smart playlists and the 16gb is all I really require.

Features B+ : WiFi web browsing says it all! Add youtube, calandar, contacts, touch screen and coverflow makes this the best portable media player, period. This rates A+ as soon as Apple figures out limiting apps to differentiate from the phone is stupid. Give me the Email app already!

Screen B : Widescreen woohoo, awesome touch technology but lacks in displaying true blacks. The last set of whites on a chart all blend as well. Still, it must be stated that we are talking about a touch screen here.

Video C+ : While its a step foward from the iPod video, other devices provide a better expierence watching video. Dark movies can be tough to see even on a good week 39.

Overall : B+ - bring me some more apps!!!!

On the joking side - Ability to keep clean F. lol I can grease a clean touch up in a matter of seconds.

madmaxmedia · Oct 6, 2007

robertma1 said:
Video C+ : While its a step foward from the iPod video, other devices provide a better expierence watching video. Dark movies can be tough to see even on a good week 39.

What other devices provide a better overall experience watching video?

Mine is not perfect with the blacks, but overall I enjoy watching video on this device. I've owned numerous PDA's in the past which may (or may not) do better on a LCD screen test page, but were not as nearly enjoyable to watch video on.

I had also done some research on the Archos 605, which is on the whole well-reviewed. But when I read of people directly comparing the 605 screen to the iPhone, the iPhone is generally pointed out as having the better screen. (I understand that there may be differences between old and current iPhones, but my point is that the grass is not always greener on the other side, assuming you end up with an 'acceptable' Touch unit.)

robertma1 · Oct 6, 2007

Sony PSP for one.

teerexx52 · Oct 6, 2007

I just did the test on my week 39 ipod touch I just came home with and my iphone purchased July 1. The touch seemed fine. If anything the iphone fared worse (but not awful)

iPod touch 1.1.1 & Week 38 are no guarantee

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