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I just don't get women

floyde

floyde

macrumors 6502a
Original poster
Apr 7, 2005
808
1
Monterrey, México
Please read last posts. Advice is no longer needed, thanks!

If you read the friend zone thread you know that I told my friend/platonic love that I needed some time apart from her. I wanted to see her a lot less while I tried to diminish my romantic feelings, but I told her that she could count on me as a friend for anything she might need.

It's only been four days... In this time I've obviously been much colder toward her (as I told her I would), but I haven't been rude or anything. Today she logged on to MSN and she didn't say hello or anything. I thought to myself that I've already payed enormous amounts of attention to her, and so if she wants to talk to me, she might as well be the one to start the conversation. She usually greets me first on MSN, but it's simply because I usually log on earlier. Apart from that, I'm always the one who calls and takes the initiative, etc.

Four hours later she says "Hi" followed by "so you wont greet me anymore?". I told her that she could've greeted me too. Then she said that she wouldn't bother me anymore and just like that, she left. Usually a scene like this would've been followed by me calling her frantically (she wouldn't answer her phone immediately) trying to apologize (for what? I don't know).

Am I being a jerk here? Or is she trying to get my attention because she's hurt?

P.S. Please excuse my grammar, I'm at work and I had to write this very quickly
 
floyde said:
If you read the friend zone thread you know that I told my friend/platonic love that I needed some time apart from her. I wanted to see her a lot less while I tried to diminish my romantic feelings, but I told her that she could count on me as a friend for anything she might need.

It's only been four days... In this time I've obviously been much colder toward her (as I told her I would), but I haven't been rude or anything. Today she logged on to MSN and she didn't say hello or anything. I thought to myself that I've already payed enormous amounts of attention to her, and so if she wants to talk to me, she might as well be the one to start the conversation. She usually greets me first on MSN, but it's simply because I usually log on earlier. Apart from that, I'm always the one who calls and takes the initiative, etc.

Four hours later she says "Hi" followed by "so you wont greet me anymore?". I told her that she could've greeted me too. Then she said that she wouldn't bother me anymore and just like that, she left. Usually a scene like this would've been followed by me calling her frantically (she wouldn't answer her phone immediately) trying to apologize (for what? I don't know).

Am I being a jerk here? Or is she trying to get my attention because she's hurt?

P.S. Please excuse my grammar, I'm at work and I had to write this very quickly
Click to expand...

It's a tough call. These kinds of things in life are things you have to deal with, but are of course, hard. It's not just women, though...I have found myself talking to ex-girlfriends and then dropping little things into the conversation to antagonise or get something or what-have-you. If she respects you and your feelings, she'll just be a friend, and if she doesn't, who needs friends like that? I don't understand the situation fully, so don't dump her as a friend because she's upset. All you can really do is analyse the situation as best you can, maybe talk to her a bit more, and decide what to do.
 
Ask yourself: did you tell her that you wanted some distance because you really wanted the distance? Or was it because you wanted to test her?

Sure, whether or not the romantic feelings are reciprocal, she is hurt. It sounds as if you mean a lot to her. Was this the effect you were after?

Just make up your mind. Do you want to go on with it? You may not get what you want, is it wise to stop it as soon as possible, to keep yourself from getting hurt even more?

Does she mean enough to you to keep it up and just go on being a supportive friend, hoping some day the relationship will grow to be more than just a friendship? Is that hope realistic?

Does she mean enough to you as a friend to try and forget about your romantic feelings? Is that possible?

Try to answer these questions for yourself and make up your mind. Don't pay attention to whatever happens on MSN. To be honest, the whole 'who says hi first' think and the frantic calling afterwards sounds pathetic, and I'm sure it doesn't improve the image she has of you either.

You're not a jerk. I recognize the feelings you have and I know it's more difficult than how I sum it up here. Just give yourself a while to think about it, make up your mind and be strong.

Good luck!
 
ZiggyPastorius said:
.... I don't understand the situation fully...
Click to expand...

Well, some more background: I'm in love with this girl, but she just wants to be friends. I respect her decision, but I need some time apart from her (it's only temporary) because right now it hurts too much when I'm near her (she's a reminder of broken dreams or something like that). So I treat her like treat all of my friends, i.e. I don't greet them everyday but that doesn't mean I don't care for them, and she gets upset :confused:. If she needs me I'll be there for her, if she talks to me I'll listen, but I simply can't seek her so much anymore because it's bad for me :(
 
MacNeXT said:
Ask yourself: did you tell her that you wanted some distance because you really wanted the distance? Or was it because you wanted to test her?

Sure, whether or not the romantic feelings are reciprocal, she is hurt. It sounds as if you mean a lot to her. Was this the effect you were after?

Just make up your mind. Do you want to go on with it? You may not get what you want, is it wise to stop it as soon as possible, to keep yourself from getting hurt even more?

Does she mean enough to you to keep it up and just go on being a supportive friend, hoping some day the relationship will grow to be more than just a friendship? Is that hope realistic?

Does she mean enough to you as a friend to try and forget about your romantic feelings? Is that possible?

Try to answer these questions for yourself and make up your mind. Don't pay attention to whatever happens on MSN. To be honest, the whole 'who says hi first' think and the frantic calling afterwards sounds pathetic, and I'm sure it doesn't improve the image she has of you either.

You're not a jerk. I recognize the feelings you have and I know it's more difficult than how I sum it up here. Just give yourself a while to think about it, make up your mind and be strong.

Good luck!
Click to expand...

I'm just hoping that I can fall in love with somebody else and then we can just be regular friends. Unconsciously I guess I did want a reaction from her, but that's an unhealthy thought that I have to get away from. I have noticed that I do mean a lot to her, and yet she says that she is not "in love" with me. Sometimes I think she's in denial, but it's too unhealthy to find out, I just hope we can be regular friends.
 
floyde said:
Well, some more background: I'm in love with this girl, but she just wants to be friends. I respect her decision, but I need some time apart from her (it's only temporary) because right now it hurts too much when I'm near her (she's a reminder of broken dreams or something like that). So I treat her like treat all of my friends, i.e. I don't greet them everyday but that doesn't mean I don't care for them, and she gets upset :confused:. If she needs me I'll be there for her, if she talks to me I'll listen, but I simply can't seek her so much anymore because it's bad for me :(
Click to expand...

Yeah, I read the original thread after I posted this (haha, pretty stupid). I think for the most part, my advice still stands..If she's not willing to just let go with the space, then you've got a problem. To be honest, if it were me, I just wouldn't go out of my way to talk or not talk to the person, I'd just live my life normally. I know that's not very good advice, and impossible to follow 100%, but if you just kind of do your daily things, and if she says hi or something just be like "hey, what's up" and try to have a normal conversation, it'll work out better.Try not to get dragged back into the drama either on your own, or if she incites it. Good luck.
 
Is the thread title meant to be ironic?

My advice is somewhere around that statement...
 
blackfox said:
Is the thread title meant to be ironic?

My advice is somewhere around that statement...
Click to expand...

I believe you mean "is it meant to be a pun?" The word ironic means the opposite of what is expected in a situation, and the double entendre in the title is obviously not the opposite of what you'd expect, as the title is inferring a problem with women, for which there is no real opposite expectation upon entering.
 
floyde said:
I'm just hoping that I can fall in love with somebody else and then we can just be regular friends. Unconsciously I guess I did want a reaction from her, but that's an unhealthy thought that I have to get away from. I have noticed that I do mean a lot to her, and yet she says that she is not "in love" with me. Sometimes I think she's in denial, but it's too unhealthy to find out, I just hope we can be regular friends.
Click to expand...

Falling in love with someone else is indeed the best remedy. But that's easier said than done. You can be sure that that will happen eventually. Maybe you should make it as easy as possible for yourself to deal with the time it takes before you do.

Like you say, thinking that she is in denial is not very constructive. It is a state of cognitive dissonance. Of course you can't know such a thing. If she says she just wants to be friends than you should believe that. Do you have reason to believe she's not being truthful when she says that?

This is one of the ugly parts of life, I think, but it's been important to me: Sometimes you have to decide to remove someone from your life, for your own sake. To admit someone only makes your life miserable (even though she doesn't mean to). It's a tough decision, but take it if it's necessary.

On the other hand: if she means more to you than that, go for it. But then you will have to accept the fact that you're a doormat kind of friend right now and you might not get what you want in the end - and be hurt even more than you're now.

I don't think I (or anyone) should tell you what to do. But again, just think about it, make up your mind and be strong.
 
If she has issues about who greets who first then you most likely don't want to date her. It would definitely make me second guess entering into a mutual romantic relationship with such a person. Of course, the picky-ness prevelant in my first two sentences may indeed explain why I have relatively few romantic relationships. (That or it is my third thumb that is in the middle of my forehead...)

Though you may have taken her original statement out of context and your rather blunt reply was what made her flee. I hate text messaging/AIM/etc. as text leaves so many human variables out of a conversation and often makes the intent of the author as an ambiguous statement to the reader.
 
floyde said:
If you read the friend zone thread you know that I told my friend/platonic love that I needed some time apart from her. I wanted to see her a lot less while I tried to diminish my romantic feelings, but I told her that she could count on me as a friend for anything she might need.

It's only been four days... In this time I've obviously been much colder toward her (as I told her I would), but I haven't been rude or anything. Today she logged on to MSN and she didn't say hello or anything. I thought to myself that I've already payed enormous amounts of attention to her, and so if she wants to talk to me, she might as well be the one to start the conversation. She usually greets me first on MSN, but it's simply because I usually log on earlier. Apart from that, I'm always the one who calls and takes the initiative, etc.

Four hours later she says "Hi" followed by "so you wont greet me anymore?". I told her that she could've greeted me too. Then she said that she wouldn't bother me anymore and just like that, she left. Usually a scene like this would've been followed by me calling her frantically (she wouldn't answer her phone immediately) trying to apologize (for what? I don't know).

Am I being a jerk here? Or is she trying to get my attention because she's hurt?

P.S. Please excuse my grammar, I'm at work and I had to write this very quickly
Click to expand...
You told her you needed space but you'd be there for her whenever she needed. You aren't giving yourself that space then, are you? What other mixed messages could you possibly send?

She always greeted you and then she gets upset that you don't greet her?
Dude, really. You said you were taking space and so you don't greet her but you ponder why she hasn't greeted you. Are you serious?

It is clear to me that you are confused about what space really is. It is also clear to me that you took the role of the doormat, she let you, and now you're not there to be her doormat. She is hurt, no doubt. She'll live.

All I can say as a woman is that we're strange. No more strange than men but we tend to voice our emotions more so we look like we're stranger. I can tell you men confuse me too and if you did that to me I'd slap you around (not the way you'd like to be slapped either). You see, you wanted something, she may or may not have been clear that she wanted it to. She's drama. You're actually drama too. You two should date! Fact is that if you want space take your space. Don't **** around with her and say "oh but I'll be there." Seriously man, you won't be there. Move on because the relationship will never be and unrequited love is just painful. Trust me, I've fallen for the wrong person before and frankly it is a waste of time but never have I said "I'm no longer talking to you but I'll always be there for you." When it is over it is over.

So now that you know she is hurt just let it be. She's going to have to go through doormat withdraws but in the long run she'll only be stronger (and still drama). You...you'll still be drama but next time it'll be over something else and hopefully someone else.

Oh and a final thought. If a woman or a man is ever confusing you and sending you mixed messages then they're dicking you around for sport. They're not the type of people you want to associate yourself with. I only say that from personal experience (on the man front that is).

AceWilfong said:
I don't like her tactics. My guess is, if you manage to stay together, you will watch her gradually turn into her mother.
Click to expand...
I can't believe you dated her mom.
 
jessica. said:
You told her you needed space but you'd be there for her whenever she needed. You aren't giving yourself that space then, are you? What other mixed messages could you possibly send?

She always greeted you and then she gets upset that you don't greet her?
Dude, really. You said you were taking space and so you don't greet her but you ponder why she hasn't greeted you. Are you serious?
Click to expand...

Wait, it's not me who's sending mixed messages, I was pretty straightfoward. And I wasn't pondering why she didn't greet me, I just let it be. She was the one who complained.

jessica. said:
It is clear to me that you are confused about what space really is. It is also clear to me that you took the role of the doormat, she let you, and now you're not there to be her doormat. She is hurt, no doubt. She'll live.

All I can say as a woman is that we're strange. No more strange than men but we tend to voice our emotions more so we look like we're stranger. I can tell you men confuse me too and if you did that to me I'd slap you around (not the way you'd like to be slapped either). You see, you wanted something, she may or may not have been clear that she wanted it to. She's drama. You're actually drama too. You two should date! Fact is that if you want space take your space. Don't **** around with her and say "oh but I'll be there." Seriously man, you won't be there. Move on because the relationship will never be and unrequited love is just painful. Trust me, I've fallen for the wrong person before and frankly it is a waste of time but never have I said "I'm no longer talking to you but I'll always be there for you." When it is over it is over.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure I'm getting what you mean. Anyway, I'm not ****ing around, I always mean what I say. And I'm not sure you got me either, perhaps you think that she's the one in love with me. But I can't possibly **** around with her since I don't even have that kind of sway over her emotions.

I know it's hard to believe, but I can still be her friend. What I can't do is see her every weekend and talk to her every single day. But that doesn't mean that I can't talk to her at all or help her out when she needs me.

(No longer a response to jessica.)Anyway the more I try to get advice for this problem, the more I lose faith in humanity. It seems being good = doormat most of the time. Some **** up world we live in. Perhaps I shouldn't be so worried about being a jerk, apparently that yields much better results and it's much more practical.
 
floyde said:
It seems being good = doormat most of the time. Some **** up world we live in. Perhaps I shouldn't be so worried about being a jerk, apparently that yields much better results and it's much more practical.
Click to expand...

That's not only pretty far off the mark, but it's pretty passive aggressive too. It's not your fault you're a pushover, you're just trying to be a good boy, it's everyone else's fault for making the world such a big bad mean place.

Being good, or rather, being a good, empathetic, sympathetic and reliable friend, has zip to do with being a doormat. In fact, being a doormat is actually being a really terrible, terrible friend. Doormats are enablers. Doormats breed co-dependency. Doormats retard personal development. Doormats are the security blankets for adults who have been so pampered or spoiled that they're not capable of hacking it in the real world.

Being there for your friends doesn't mean being there for them all the time. (FYI, that doesn't mean you're there for your friends, it means you're your friend's bitch). Being there for your friends means you're there for them when they actually need you, and that you're not just a nodding yes-man. It also means that if someone is co-dependant on you, you have to be man enough to give them tough love and the honesty they need so that they stop relying on other people to solve their problems.

Which means if you really want to be her friend, you can't be there for her all the time. She has got to learn to be there for herself. And you have to learn to be there for yourself, which means you stop taking crap and you stop letting people walk on you. My advice may be harsh, but it's right, and having the guts to be honest to someone who might not take it well is having what it takes to be a real friend.
 
Iscariot said:
That's not only pretty far off the mark, but it's pretty passive aggressive too. It's not your fault you're a pushover, you're just trying to be a good boy, it's everyone else's fault for making the world such a big bad mean place.

Being good, or rather, being a good, empathetic, sympathetic and reliable friend, has zip to do with being a doormat. In fact, being a doormat is actually being a really terrible, terrible friend. Doormats are enablers. Doormats breed co-dependency. Doormats retard personal development. Doormats are the security blankets for adults who have been so pampered or spoiled that they're not capable of hacking it in the real world.

Being there for your friends doesn't mean being there for them all the time. (FYI, that doesn't mean you're there for your friends, it means you're your friend's bitch). Being there for your friends means you're there for them when they actually need you, and that you're not just a nodding yes-man. It also means that if someone is co-dependant on you, you have to be man enough to give them tough love and the honesty they need so that they stop relying on other people to solve their problems.

Which means if you really want to be her friend, you can't be there for her all the time. She has got to learn to be there for herself. And you have to learn to be there for yourself, which means you stop taking crap and you stop letting people walk on you. My advice may be harsh, but it's right, and having the guts to be honest to someone who might not take it well is having what it takes to be a real friend.
Click to expand...

Brutally honest as always, I appreciate that :(. But I never meant to be a doormat, I was genuinely trying to be good to someone I cared about. Of course, I had never thought about it that way. I didn't realize my behaviour was so harmful. But I don't understand how I can be such a terrible friend without malice. And no, I wasn't good to her just so she would be with me, I never had any hope for that happening. I remember one day thinking that I could really help her, next day I woke up here in this mess.

I didn't mean for her to be dependent on me. I didn't mean to be her security blanket or to stop her personal development. As far as I can remember I always had good intentions. You may or may not believe that, but at least consider that it's possible to screw up big time even when trying to do good.

But you're right, I shouldn't be blaming others for my faults. And I guess I'm doing the right thing now that I'm walking away.


Anyway, as jessica. pointed out, I'm drama. What I meant with my exaggerated comment was that jerks (i.e. mysoginists, adulterers, etc) usually do better with women than "nice" guys (i.e. sensitive, shy, respectful). And I'm talking about non-doormat nice guys. That may not be 100% true in every case, but it happens a lot more than it should.
 
floyde said:
If you read the friend zone thread you know that I told my friend/platonic love that I needed some time apart from her. I wanted to see her a lot less while I tried to diminish my romantic feelings, but I told her that she could count on me as a friend for anything she might need.

It's only been four days... In this time I've obviously been much colder toward her (as I told her I would), but I haven't been rude or anything. Today she logged on to MSN and she didn't say hello or anything. I thought to myself that I've already payed enormous amounts of attention to her, and so if she wants to talk to me, she might as well be the one to start the conversation. She usually greets me first on MSN, but it's simply because I usually log on earlier. Apart from that, I'm always the one who calls and takes the initiative, etc.

Four hours later she says "Hi" followed by "so you wont greet me anymore?". I told her that she could've greeted me too. Then she said that she wouldn't bother me anymore and just like that, she left. Usually a scene like this would've been followed by me calling her frantically (she wouldn't answer her phone immediately) trying to apologize (for what? I don't know).

Am I being a jerk here? Or is she trying to get my attention because she's hurt?

P.S. Please excuse my grammar, I'm at work and I had to write this very quickly
Click to expand...

Don't even think about this. It didn't work out between you two. There are millions of people that have had "relationships" like this. Honestly, there is nothing better than finding another girl and moving on. We, as humans, have a need to be with someone, whoever that may be. She obviously took you for granted and you didn't deserve it. Don't beat yourself up over something as little as a MSN "scuffle." Find another girl, take her to dinner, show her how great a guy you are and if that doesn't work repeat it with someone else. I'm a firm believer of the fact that everyone can find someone. I just broke up with my girlfriend of 3 years and while it is a kick in the n*ts I'm not worried about it anymore. I moved on, so did she, we're still friends and that's what is best for us. Don't get caught up over one girl. In the past few weeks I've had more fun single and going out with various girls than I ever had sitting at home with her on a weekend...
 
floyde said:
Well, some more background: I'm in love with this girl, but she just wants to be friends. I respect her decision, but I need some time apart from her (it's only temporary) because right now it hurts too much when I'm near her (she's a reminder of broken dreams or something like that). So I treat her like treat all of my friends, i.e. I don't greet them everyday but that doesn't mean I don't care for them, and she gets upset :confused:. If she needs me I'll be there for her, if she talks to me I'll listen, but I simply can't seek her so much anymore because it's bad for me :(
Click to expand...

Just tell her what you just told us regarding the treatment of friends. She doesn't want to be your girlfriend, but she wants more attention from you than a typical friend would give her. Leave her. That is all there is to it. Just do it. Telling her that you don't really want to talk to her, but you'll go to her whenever she's feeling down, hurt, crying, etc, isn't helping. How is this giving yourselves space and time apart? It's not. It's a lie. You're lying to yourself that you're giving her space. You're not giving yourself space and time away from her. You're still watching her, but from a further distance away. You're still within reach, though. Just do yourself a favour and remove yourself from her mental picture of who should be there when she needs a shoulder to cry on, or someone to talk to. You're not that guy anymore. You're not her bitch.

It's typical of these "mixed signal" relationships, and unless you want to end up like spineless doormat mgacam2 for the next 5 years, then listen to at least some of the good advice in this thread and others.

You're doing the right thing, but I don't think this "temporary" parting will make things better. Once you have given this some time, and you go back to being close to her again, things will end up being exactly the same, and you'll still be hurting.

You need to find another girl. That's it. There's your answer from me. Find one, and don't make the same mistake again.
 
floyde said:
... I never meant to be a doormat...
Click to expand...

as always, i think a Simpsons quote should clear this right up.

Lisa: Ever since that self-help guy came to town, you've lost your identity. You've fallen through the cracks of our quick-fix, one-hour photo, instant oatmeal society.
Bart: What's the answer?
Lisa: Well, this is your chance to develop a new and better identity. May I suggest… good-natured doormat?
Bart: Sounds good, sis. Just tell me what to do.

quit trying to fix/help/assist her, and move on. that will help her the most. really.
 
floyde said:
Brutally honest as always, I appreciate that :(. But I never meant to be a doormat, I was genuinely trying to be good to someone I cared about. Of course, I had never thought about it that way. I didn't realize my behaviour was so harmful. But I don't understand how I can be such a terrible friend without malice.
Click to expand...

Believe me, I and everyone else knows you're not trying to be a doormat, and that you've got nothing but good intentions.

floyde said:
Anyway, as jessica. pointed out, I'm drama. What I meant with my exaggerated comment was that jerks (i.e. mysoginists, adulterers, etc) usually do better with women than "nice" guys (i.e. sensitive, shy, respectful). That may not be 100% true in every case, but it happens a lot more than it should.
Click to expand...

Not to defend mysoginists and adulterers, but a lot of it happens because of precedents set within society. There are a lot of unhealthy behaviours and attitudes that are ingrained from the word "go", and not to kick you while you're down, but you are in part responsible for this. Every white knight out there who is over-protecting the girl they secretly (and it's not actually a secret, btw) love is setting her up to get taken advantage of.

And sensitive, respectful, chivalrous, these are all "nice guy" qualities that are wildly successful. It's qualities like shy, overprotective, jealousy, qualities that often go hand and hand with the aforementioned qualities that are wholly undesireable. Nobody wants to date someone who has all the qualities of a father figure.

The difference is knowing when to draw the line. Knowing when a sweet compliment is warranted, or a swift dose of reality. And not letting yourself turn into a doormat. Confidence and self-esteem are positive traits.
 
iJohnHenry said:
Holy crap, I have never seen it put so succinctly before.
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Seriously? Girls will generally turn into their mothers. If you wanna know how a girl might turn out in the future, go meet her mother. Girls will also marry their fathers (not literally obviously; men who have similar qualities as her father).
 
jessica. said:
You told her you needed space but you'd be there for her whenever she needed. You aren't giving yourself that space then, are you? What other mixed messages could you possibly send?

She always greeted you and then she gets upset that you don't greet her?
Dude, really. You said you were taking space and so you don't greet her but you ponder why she hasn't greeted you. Are you serious?

It is clear to me that you are confused about what space really is. It is also clear to me that you took the role of the doormat, she let you, and now you're not there to be her doormat. She is hurt, no doubt. She'll live.

All I can say as a woman is that we're strange. No more strange than men but we tend to voice our emotions more so we look like we're stranger. I can tell you men confuse me too and if you did that to me I'd slap you around (not the way you'd like to be slapped either). You see, you wanted something, she may or may not have been clear that she wanted it to. She's drama. You're actually drama too. You two should date! Fact is that if you want space take your space. Don't **** around with her and say "oh but I'll be there." Seriously man, you won't be there. Move on because the relationship will never be and unrequited love is just painful. Trust me, I've fallen for the wrong person before and frankly it is a waste of time but never have I said "I'm no longer talking to you but I'll always be there for you." When it is over it is over.

So now that you know she is hurt just let it be. She's going to have to go through doormat withdraws but in the long run she'll only be stronger (and still drama). You...you'll still be drama but next time it'll be over something else and hopefully someone else.

Oh and a final thought. If a woman or a man is ever confusing you and sending you mixed messages then they're dicking you around for sport. They're not the type of people you want to associate yourself with. I only say that from personal experience (on the man front that is).


I can't believe you dated her mom.
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I think this response above is right on. I also would say that your initial post came across as extremely passive aggressive. Unfortunately I can relate so I see it. You're a nice guy, you're trying and when you try to pull away, the reaction in your head and on IM comes across wrong. You want to be the friend and yet allow space. It's difficult especially when she sounds a bit confused as to how you two should now relate. The whole game of who says 'hi' first on IM is lame but says much about the complicated dynamic. I suggest being direct, honest and also not so available. Clearly you are a nice person and that is what matters and she'll come around eventually. Creating that space so that the two of you can try and mend all this is the hard part while trying to not be a jerk. For your own sanity you need a bit of distance and to not be so available. You sound like a really great person.
 
I've pretty much come to the conclusion that women and money are the root of all evil...

seriously, not trying to be an a$$ but think about what drives people to be oppressive over others?
 
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