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Old Dec 28, 2012, 08:16 PM   #1
katewes
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Fallacy: "If you don't like Apple, don't buy" - Fallacy of escaping the walled-garden

I am sick to my teeth, when reading of complaints of Apple's new direction, some joker comes along and says, "If you don't like the product, don't buy it".

Until you realise that those pat arguments apply to operating systems where there is freedom of movement, but not to walled-gardens, of which Apple is the master of creating benevolent Iron Curtains.

When Tom Hank's character is stranded on a deserted island, and he's sick of the island, imagine saying to him: "If you don't like the island, don't stay here" (before he found the sail).

This doesn't take into account that Apple, for more than a decade, has been doing everything - that comes from the resources of $120 million cash pile - to design a wall that you cannot climb out of.

If you say to a user of Microsof Windows -- if you don't like that Samsung laptop, don't buy.

The phrase "don't buy" is short for "don't buy this one; choose one of the other options".

It is inappropriate to fob off someone by saying, "don't buy" - when, inside OSX, Apple is the only one making hardware.

OSX is the wall of the garden. The over-grown mess of Windows 8 means the garden, walled, is the logical place to stay.

I think there are two options Apple could have taken, and we know which one it has taken:


(1) Go for the option that makes most money, and stuff everyone (can't please everyone) who wants hardware options that don't make Apple tons of money, e.g. no matte, anti-glare screens for all Apple desktop hardware.

(2) The responsible citizen approach where Apple realise that, having created an OS where it is a walled-garden, and they are the only suppliers of hardware, they have a responsibility - particularly with $120 billion cash - to offer hardware options that smaller segments of user community need for their work, e.g. non-reflective, non-glossy screens for desktop hardware.


When Apple takes the approach of taking only one design approach per genre - e.g. all-reflective screens for desktop hardware - and says we're only going to make hardware for the majority -- plus, Apple works most diligently on the wall around the garden ... the point of this post is to say, we don't need people coming and saying, "If you don't like Apple, don't buy".

It's sicking when people in the majority just fob off the minority with patronising comments.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 08:19 PM   #2
MisterKeeks
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What they mean by "don't buy" is-
If the product is not what you are looking for, don't buy it. Buy one that you are looking for, be it the next generation or one of the previous generations. If I think the battery on the iPad Mini is poor, I won't buy it.
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Old Dec 28, 2012, 08:30 PM   #3
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I do think the "buy something else" dismissive behavior is rude and annoying, and somewhat wrong. However, companies do tend to stick their hands into anything they think their customer might be interested in. See IBM, Xerox, Google, Microsoft, et all. Just because you like Macs doesn't mean you have to buy everything that Apple makes.

There are times where it sucks not having an option, like with the notebooks. Then again, I think glossy vs matte is actually extremely overblown, and that's with myself preferring matte screens.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 12:50 AM   #4
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People, up to now, fail to realize that Apple– who only makes a handful of products in their categories– creates products that don't suit them. They'll continuously bash Apple.

And because they haven't realized that people are different and have different expectations of a product, they'll bash the people buying Apple product. Calling them "blind followers" and "sheep". So if someone says "don't buy it", its another way of saying that "Don't bother complaining because the product is not for you."

Anyways, thats what I think people mean.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 01:16 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by adildacoolset View Post
People, up to now, fail to realize that Apple– who only makes a handful of products in their categories– creates products that don't suit them. They'll continuously bash Apple.

And because they haven't realized that people are different and have different expectations of a product, they'll bash the people buying Apple product. Calling them "blind followers" and "sheep". So if someone says "don't buy it", its another way of saying that "Don't bother complaining because the product is not for you."

Anyways, thats what I think people mean.
That only applies to people who have yet to buy into the...oh god...ecosystem. Like if you're out shopping for a new cell phone, and haven't committed to a single platform yet, then you really don't have much room to complain. If you don't like it, nothing is forcing you to buy it.

But if you've bought in, have a ton of apps, and Apple starts making changes you don't like, then it's flat out annoying having some idiot say "well if you don't like it, move to Android".

...and what? Have to port over all my files, retailor everything I've set up, and eventually lose access to all the apps I've bought? Because they think Apple knows best, and I have no room to complain?

Contrary to what the recent plague of Apple Hater Accusers believe, some people complain about products they otherwise like because they want their platform to do more than it's currently capable of.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 02:17 AM   #6
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That only applies to people who have yet to buy into the...oh god...ecosystem. Like if you're out shopping for a new cell phone, and haven't committed to a single platform yet, then you really don't have much room to complain. If you don't like it, nothing is forcing you to buy it.

But if you've bought in, have a ton of apps, and Apple starts making changes you don't like, then it's flat out annoying having some idiot say "well if you don't like it, move to Android".

...and what? Have to port over all my files, retailor everything I've set up, and eventually lose access to all the apps I've bought? Because they think Apple knows best, and I have no room to complain?

Contrary to what the recent plague of Apple Hater Accusers believe, some people complain about products they otherwise like because they want their platform to do more than it's currently capable of.

That, I agree.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 03:07 AM   #7
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I've always used tech from different companies. Being 'loyal' to a company is something I refuse to do, walled garden or not. I don't think I would be satisfied if I replaced my devices with Apple's entire line up, as I think quite a lot of Apple's popular stuff actually sucks in comparison to the competitor.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 09:05 AM   #8
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I've always used tech from different companies. Being 'loyal' to a company is something I refuse to do, walled garden or not. I don't think I would be satisfied if I replaced my devices with Apple's entire line up, as I think quite a lot of Apple's popular stuff actually sucks in comparison to the competitor.

It's not so much a case of loyalty to Apple - although I can't deny that's in there - but rather that I so much prefer Apple's OSX and its gorgeous design of its hardware.

Hence, when Apple stuffs some of us up by not having matte screens, or removing DVD drives, or dumbing down the OS, it's not a simple matter of saying I'll just switch to Windows.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 01:22 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
That only applies to people who have yet to buy into the...oh god...ecosystem. Like if you're out shopping for a new cell phone, and haven't committed to a single platform yet, then you really don't have much room to complain. If you don't like it, nothing is forcing you to buy it.

But if you've bought in, have a ton of apps, and Apple starts making changes you don't like, then it's flat out annoying having some idiot say "well if you don't like it, move to Android".

...and what? Have to port over all my files, retailor everything I've set up, and eventually lose access to all the apps I've bought? Because they think Apple knows best, and I have no room to complain?
Roll back the clock a few years and this is precisely the response that Dos/Windows users would give to Mac users for not switching.

For myself, I have been thinking about a laptop, but looking at the MBP pricing and lack of upgradablity, I am seriously considering that my next purchase will be for a Linux-based machine.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 01:17 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by katewes View Post
self entitled tripe
Apple or any other company doesn't owe it to you to build your perfect device. There is no way that Apple or any other company can meet every single person's unique requirements.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 01:22 AM   #11
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Back in the day...Let's say a decade the "walled garden" argument was sort of a valid one. Now? Not really...Platform crossing apps ( Itunes for one) make it a lot easier for people who don't want / can't afford Mac's to join the Apple eco-system.

I don't knock Windows, Android etc. If people wish to use them then fine by me. My entire workflow is Apple based, and it would cost me just as much to replace everything in order to cross over to Windows as it does to maintain my Apple products.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 10:35 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by katewes View Post
I am sick to my teeth, when reading of complaints of Apple's new direction, some joker comes along and says, "If you don't like the product, don't buy it".
What they really mean is: "I am absolutely fine with exactly the thing you are complaining about. You are wrong, but you won't listen to any argument, and I've had enough of arguing about it. ". Lots of irrational complaints are coming from people who are not buying anyway.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 10:46 AM   #13
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Why do you think it is a walled garden?
Following your analogy, some gardens have different flora and fauna, and people allergic to them.

You get into it only if you want to, no one is forcing you to do anything.

You are just limiting the forum complaint to your own and particular point of view.
iMacs are not the only desktops that you can buy from Apple.
If you want a non-glossy monitor, buy one, or apply something on the glass to make it non-glossy.

Have you wrote to Apple asking for what you want?
Have you talked with the Apple employees at the Apple stores?
Used the social networks?
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 10:52 AM   #14
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OS X is not the walled garden you think it is.

iTunes content is available on Windows.
Most OS X apps are also available on Windows.
It's pretty trivial to get your data off the mac and into Windows.

And contrary to the trolling you may see, Windows 7 is a SOLID operating system. Stability wise better than OS X in my experience.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 02:12 PM   #15
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After having used apple products all my life, I didn't find it very hard to intergrate a samsung tablet into my ecosystem. There were few ios features/apps that I couldn't find an android equivilent for
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 03:30 PM   #16
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I think a big part of the argument has to do with things like Final Cut Pro and its related apps. A lot of businesses and individuals built their operations around a piece of software that Apple then decided to completely change, and others, eliminate altogether.

In pure terms, Apple doesn't owe the people their software, but that doesn't mean that it's the "right thing to do" to go completely off the deep end with a product like that. Same thing goes for the OS. I have thousands of dollars invested in apps. I haven't been a fan of the most recent OSX releases, as they are going towards an iOS feeling, which I don't want on my desktop. But switching means losing a good number of the apps I have purchased.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 10:32 PM   #17
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When you buy from vendors with proprietary products, that's what you get. Vendor lock-in. Then when the vendor moves on or moves in a direction you don't like : You're stuck.

Live and learn.

While I use Macs, most of my files use open formats that are multi-platform. That way, if Apple even decides not to ship hardware that pleases, well I'm off to Dell or Sony or HP or whatever other vendor and lost none of my data.

The lesson here is : buy the hardware as long as it suits you, but don't buy into closed ecosystems. OS X is a 100% UNIX system, it can open/read/write open formats, stick to that instead of the crud Apple sells in its iTunes store.
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Old Dec 29, 2012, 10:45 PM   #18
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The walled garden is real IMO.

But I'm okay with it as Apple has made the experience a top priority. If that should change then it would be a problem.

And the experience they've targeted is seamless integration between phone, tablet, laptop/desktop.

And decent incentive with the App Store as that 70/30 is working out pretty well for both apple and the developers. So programming remains strong. And again the app requirements (interface, etc) that the walled garden brings keeps those apps solid.

It seems to me anything android related is, overall, fractured.
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Old Dec 30, 2012, 09:08 PM   #19
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The walled garden is real IMO.

But I'm okay with it as Apple has ...
I believe your statement "I'm ok with it" hits it on the nail. That's how I feel mostly about Apple. It is ok. Actually, it's great. And that is the definition of a walled garden, when most things are ok, such that you cannot leave because most things are ok.

e.g. when using Windows PC for corporate work, when I was using a Hewlett-Packard, most things were ok, but I didn't like a small aspect, so I switched to IBM Thinkpads. Outside of a walled garden, we can switch for small reasons. But with Apple, you can't switch for small reasons. It'd have to be a massively big reason for you to switch. And Apple takes advantage of us because of that.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 01:00 PM   #20
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I think a big part of the argument has to do with things like Final Cut Pro and its related apps. A lot of businesses and individuals built their operations around a piece of software that Apple then decided to completely change, and others, eliminate altogether.

In pure terms, Apple doesn't owe the people their software, but that doesn't mean that it's the "right thing to do" to go completely off the deep end with a product like that. Same thing goes for the OS. I have thousands of dollars invested in apps. I haven't been a fan of the most recent OSX releases, as they are going towards an iOS feeling, which I don't want on my desktop. But switching means losing a good number of the apps I have purchased.
I remember buying Logic 8 a few years back for $800. Back then even $800 was a really good value proposition for a DAW suite because it competed with Pro Tools, which cost about $2000 - Apple was undercutting Avid by a lot. With 9, they dropped the price to $200. Everyone's been waiting for Logic X but it's not really a priority for Apple.

This is pretty much expected because Apple's strategy of devaluing software to sell hardware has been pretty consistent
  • Dropping pricepoints on their OS and first party products
  • Shifting Final Cut to a Prosumer focus
  • Commoditizing mobile software

As long as their hardware is flying off the shelf, expect software for iOS and OS X to continue to degrade over time. Apple has no reason to care about software - it doesn't make much of a profit off it and has historically applied downward pressure on the price of sw to push hardware sales.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 02:06 PM   #21
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Apple - hardware holds the OSX hostage
Micro$oft - OS holds the hardware hostage
Linux/Unix - still using archaic command line (based on early limited ascii)

In 2012 it is all a bad deal for the consumer.

I am sure plenty will disagree but that is just my take on the matter having come from early days of DOS, Win, OS2, Win/Lin and then OSX.

I'll admit I must be getting old as some of the "change" I see in OSX is not to my liking nor the hardware. However, I'll remain with OSX with virtual to run XP or 7 for the 3 apps that are not found on the OSX side. This has been my best compromise and works about as well as it can.

As for iOS, mixed bag. Nothing I dislike more than having to put on glasses to see the menus on both iPhone and iPad. On the iPad, given the real estate of the screen, one would think when you went into music, the menu options on the bottom could be made with larger and bolder fonts. Here, its form over function. I am not alone on this and as we know, Apple's motto was taken from Ford - you can have any colour you want, as long as it is black.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 03:01 PM   #22
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Linux/Unix - still using archaic command line (based on early limited ascii)
We've had this thing called X11 (or Quartz Extreme if your Unix comes from that fruit vendor) since ... well.. the 90s or 80s even. And the Command line, at least on all the Unix systems I use, are UTF-8 with support for UTF-16 if I wish. ASCII ? Heck, haven't heard of plain old 7 bit ASCII in almost 25 years, we've had Extended ASCII for quite a while...

What an uninformed post.
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Old Dec 31, 2012, 11:06 PM   #23
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We've had this thing called X11 (or Quartz Extreme if your Unix comes from that fruit vendor) since ... well.. the 90s or 80s even. And the Command line, at least on all the Unix systems I use, are UTF-8 with support for UTF-16 if I wish. ASCII ? Heck, haven't heard of plain old 7 bit ASCII in almost 25 years, we've had Extended ASCII for quite a while...

What an uninformed post.
Unix/Linux command line remains based on the limited amount of ascii when Unix first came about. Now be a good little boy and do your history and see how much larger ascii set is these days and then you just might understand what I am talking about. Yawn at flaming on line. - So passe'
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Old Jan 1, 2013, 08:10 AM   #24
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Unix/Linux command line remains based on the limited amount of ascii when Unix first came about. Now be a good little boy and do your history and see how much larger ascii set is these days and then you just might understand what I am talking about. Yawn at flaming on line. - So passe'
It seems you tried to insult knightwrx in some way, but you don't actually make any sense at all. Did you vote it up yourself?
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Old Jan 1, 2013, 08:36 AM   #25
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Unix/Linux command line remains based on the limited amount of ascii when Unix first came about. Now be a good little boy and do your history and see how much larger ascii set is these days and then you just might understand what I am talking about. Yawn at flaming on line. - So passe'
I know exactly what you're talking here.

Its called total ****.
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