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scoobydoo99

Cancelled
Mar 11, 2003
1,007
353
Don't be stupid. How do you think the money we bring in can go to a "Select few?" Corporations are not Mafia. Every director's compensation is transparent and the stock granting is reported to SEC and shareholders. There are independent directors on the board overseeing everything.

What makes you think if a company gets to move money, their own money, from one country to another, then suddenly some fat cats will get millions of dollars?

Use some common sense otherwise you are the one who is insane and delusional. If you work in Appe as a VP of iPhone for example, your salary is fixed, your stock options is fixed, and any extra incentives are PERFORMANCE based. Just because your company make a lot of money one day it doesn't mean your will get a huge bonus. If that is true, then it means if your company cannot move foreign deposit into the US, then you are not getting paid as much money as you should, then why would you still work for your company? If companies really do that they will not be able to retain employees.

Public traded companies are not evil groups of rich people ok? If anything they are the most transparent and honest business entities because of so many laws and check-balance mechanism. Discrimination or sex harassment are all strictly not tolerated fearing of huge law suits. They are made out of tens of thousands of employees, regular folks liek you and me, having kids and wives and they want to hold onto their jobs but their companies can only afford to hire employees in foreign HQs because the company can pay these people 30% less!!!

Do you understand this now?

^ Case in point :rolleyes:
 

rdrr

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2003
532
1,243
NH
Don't be stupid. How do you think the money we bring in can go to a "Select few?" Corporations are not Mafia. Every director's compensation is transparent and the stock granting is reported to SEC and shareholders. There are independent directors on the board overseeing everything.

What makes you think if a company gets to move money, their own money, from one country to another, then suddenly some fat cats will get millions of dollars?

Use some common sense otherwise you are the one who is insane and delusional. If you work in Appe as a VP of iPhone for example, your salary is fixed, your stock options is fixed, and any extra incentives are PERFORMANCE based. Just because your company make a lot of money one day it doesn't mean your will get a huge bonus. If that is true, then it means if your company cannot move foreign deposit into the US, then you are not getting paid as much money as you should, then why would you still work for your company? If companies really do that they will not be able to retain employees.

Public traded companies are not evil groups of rich people ok? If anything they are the most transparent and honest business entities because of so many laws and check-balance mechanism. Discrimination or sex harassment are all strictly not tolerated fearing of huge law suits. They are made out of tens of thousands of employees, regular folks liek you and me, having kids and wives and they want to hold onto their jobs but their companies can only afford to hire employees in foreign HQs because the company can pay these people 30% less!!!

Do you understand this now?

Remember Adelphia, Bear-Sterns, Enron? Yeah those weren't companies that hid things and gave it to America in the rear.
 

mdriftmeyer

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2004
3,810
1,985
Pacific Northwest
Here's a compromise:

We'll lower it to half or 17.5%.

All these corporations have kept the US Economy in a sluggish state. They can return the money for half the current rate just this one time.

Then we eliminate all corporate tax loopholes and make it a level playing field for corporations and consumers with a complete tax overhaul.

Corporations will pay the same rate as the highest wage earners.

If it's 28% for the top end, so be it. Corporations will get incentives to lower it to 20%, if they reinvest into the US.
 

emaja

macrumors 68000
May 3, 2005
1,706
11
Chicago, IL
Two points...

First, no business with any sense pays ANY taxes. They pass it all along to consumers as part of their business expenses in the form of higher prices or lower wages or even layoffs or cutting benefits. Businesses don't pay. We do.

Second, we rail against those big businesses with their record profits, yet scream to high heaven when our 401Ks tank when those profits are down or losses are incurred.

You can't have it both ways.
 

paduck

macrumors 6502
Jul 5, 2007
426
0
A corporation pays 30% income tax, then pay salary to employee with the remaining 70% of money. These employee then pay 40% of tax again, before they could invest in stock. Then if they make money in stock, they pay tax again. If they give the money to their kids, they pay tax again.

Well, first off, a company pays it's taxes AFTER it pays all it's expenses, including salaries, so the 30% comes of the net profit, not the gross income. And most people in America aren't paying 40% in federal income taxes. Since the highest marginal rate is supposed to be 35% on income over $373,000 (for singles) that would be hard to do (and since they only pay Social Security on the first $107k, you just can't reach 40% in federal taxes for an individual - and we're talking MARGINAL rate here, not the real rate which is going to probably be 20%- 25% for most normal people).

If they make money on the stock, they pay tax on the PROFIT, not the gross amount. So again, that isn't double-taxation. If they die and pass the money along to their children MILLIONS of dollars are exempted from taxes, so again, money is missing out of taxation.


It's like when the unemployment was exnteded to 99 weeks, by friend who lost a job for a year told me he doesn't want to look for a retail job cuz the salary will be lower than his unemployment. Even he is very capable of working on many respectful jobs but he chooses not to, he chooese to live off unemployment...why? Because he can. People make decisions based on incentives and when you tax people a lot you remove their incentives to work hard, and when you provide social welfare too much you give them incentive to shirk.

Like the 5-year limit on welfare, the unemployment insurance that goes on forever disinclines a subset of people from looking for work. There is certainl something to be said for having a time limit on it. However, the average unemployment check in the US is $293/week. And that's taxable. That's not to say people don't get larger checks, but it doesn't last forever and $1200/month pre-tax doesn't go too far if you have a family. Not too many people getting ahead on unemployment insurance.
 

paduck

macrumors 6502
Jul 5, 2007
426
0
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the U.S have some of the lowest tax rates among industrialized nations?

The US personal tax rates are among the lowest. The US corporate tax rates aren't. And there is a good policy discussion to be had there.

Neither is "confiscatory" though. At the 30% level, that means you get to keep 70 cents for every $1 profit. That's still 70 cents you wouldn't have had. That's a pretty good incentive. Plus you get roads, post office, national parks, a military second to none, an often good educational system, health coverage for old people and social security. That's the cost of providing the ecosystem.
 

rdrr

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2003
532
1,243
NH
Solution.

Tax them 5% then put the other 30% into a escrow account that HAS to be invested into American jobs, industry, etc.
 

PinkyMacGodess

Suspended
Mar 7, 2007
10,271
6,226
Midwest America.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the U.S have some of the lowest tax rates among industrialized nations?

And so many ways to game the system. I got the story in an accounting class years ago. Corporations undervalue the stuff coming in and over value the stuff going out. It's 'common practice' and shields the corporation from taxes. The IRS supposedly, according to the prof that I had, generally looks the other way unless it gets too 'out of hand', whatever that means. I'm sure that the Bushist IRS let things get 'out of hand'...

Wasn't it Leona Helmsley that said that only the poor people pay taxes?

The sad thing about it though is that Apple isn't the only corporation sitting on huge profits and finding creative ways to get the money back in.

Apple needs new accountants. Goldman Sachs?
 

djp2

macrumors member
Jan 16, 2010
57
0
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the U.S have some of the lowest tax rates among industrialized nations?

Yeah, you're arguing with people who have drunk the corporate kool-aid. For whatever reason, they don't seem to understand that any country on this planet where anyone actually wants to live has a strong social safety net and high taxation. If they think we'd be better off with corporations paying lower taxes they should go hang out with billionaire Russian oligarchs or something. Have fun in the third world, guys! meanwhile, the rest of the world will still be trying to immigrate to places like the US, Canada, western Europe and Scandinavia - you know, places with public schools, parks, seniors' care, social security plans, healthcare, and an actual civil society.
 

johnnymg

macrumors 65816
Nov 16, 2008
1,318
7
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the U.S have some of the lowest tax rates among industrialized nations?

Yes you are wrong when it comes to corporate tax rates ......... and THAT'S what we are discussing here.

JohnG
 

KT Walrus

macrumors member
Jul 10, 2008
30
0
Repatriation of overseas cash should be taxed at capital gains rate (currently 15% max) and not at the corporate rate of 35%.
 

isserley

macrumors newbie
Feb 16, 2011
13
9
Ha ha ha! - "5% tax is temporary"

But the government isn't getting 35% of 37.2 billion. Right now they aren't getting anything because Apple and other companies are keeping the money overseas. The proposed 5% tax is temporary; I don't want the tax rate to always be at that level for corporations. But I accept that the government getting 5% of 37.2 billion NOW (just from Apple) would benefit the government greatly. Similarly, the money being brought back into the United States would also benefit the citizens and the government. Considering our current economic situation, I support initiatives that help to stimulate our economy now.

With all due respect, now that is ******* crazy.
Small companies, that need to get all the profits they reap back to the US asap pay each year those 35%.
The big ones just sit and wait, and when they have an opp to get government by the balls, they play this 1-year-tax-holiday card.
Let me see how much of a douche you are: Imagine 2011 being the year of the 5% tax holiday.
What happens in 2012, 2013 and onwards?
Will Apple and the others automagically start bringing the profits back at 35%?
If your answer is anything but a resolute "NO!", you´re a complete nutcase. All these big corps will wait another 5 - 10 years and then lobby once again for 5% (or better, even a 2%) tax holiday ...

If the governement had any balls at all, they´d play it this way (no matter if dems or reps):
"Hey corps & peeps, big and small: We´ll redo the tax systems. Now it´s 20% flat on everything, no loopholes whatsoever. - In order to support families, 5k$ income (or pick a number you like better) per capita per year in a household stay completely tax free. - Big Corps, having billions of $$ in foreign bank accounts: bring the money home at 15% within the next three months - those who not comply, we´ll the seize the money at the old 35% rate."

Cheers
i.
 

mdriftmeyer

macrumors 68040
Feb 2, 2004
3,810
1,985
Pacific Northwest
Two points...

First, no business with any sense pays ANY taxes. They pass it all along to consumers as part of their business expenses in the form of higher prices or lower wages or even layoffs or cutting benefits. Businesses don't pay. We do.

Second, we rail against those big businesses with their record profits, yet scream to high heaven when our 401Ks tank when those profits are down or losses are incurred.

You can't have it both ways.

Don't invest in a 401k. Take all that money and invest in your own choice of market funds, stocks and bonds.

A 401k is a false sense of security.
 

trevorlsciact

macrumors regular
Feb 6, 2007
210
0
Orlando FL
you are wrong. the money returned won't go into the pocket of the rich at all, but directly into US economy.

i work for one of the listed companies and we have over $30b in foreign accounts. we have had many kinds of hiring freezes for US employees for many quarters and all depts are encouraged to hire off-shore employees (India). what happens is now i have to work with many people in diff countries, staying up late at night for conf calls w/ India/Singapore, or early w/ Europe. why the shift? because my company is paying the salary for these off-shore employee w/ off-shore money. if our money is off-shore, might as well hire off-shore people. i can personally attest to you many many American people will get hired by my company if we have the money available to hire them in US. if we pay US employee, it comes from US bank account however. Tell me, what would you do if you are running a company like that? would you hire US employee to pay a minimum of 30% premium?!

and let me tell you why the money won't go into rich people's hands. all the VP, SVP, and executives have something called "salary." having the money in US or not will not change their employment agreement or salary level. Money in US will allow US companies to hire more US employees and invest in US capital such as plants, acquisitions, etc.

lastly, companies like us are not evading taxes. the items we sell already were taxed in foreign countries. why shall we pay tax twice?

it's like you buy a new Toyota Camry for $30k, and you pay $3k of tax on it. The government made $3k from a $30k car.
Now when you want to sell it used after a year for $20k, the next buyer will pay $2k of tax. Now, off the $30k car, the government is getting $5k...!!!

Why will the same car be taxed twice? Why shall a government gain $5k from a $30k car? If you think about it, double taxation happens every where. A corporation pays 30% income tax, then pay salary to employee with the remaining 70% of money. These employee then pay 40% of tax again, before they could invest in stock. Then if they make money in stock, they pay tax again. If they give the money to their kids, they pay tax again.

Eventually, out of $100, government could take 70% of it thru multiple taxation.

If you understand this you will think twice about raising tax next time. Tax is not as simple as "just another 0.25%." It has a profound and compounding effect. If I tell you every car that sells for $30k, $5k will go to government, will you still buy the car as enthusiastically as before? or will you still sell your car?

Tax simply decreases incentives to trade and compete, hindering the growth of economy.

Lower tax is not helping the rich people only....it really helps the poor too when the people have money invest and spend. If you raise a lot of tax and remove the incentive to compete by providing welfare to everyone, then why do people need to work?

It's like when the unemployment was exnteded to 99 weeks, by friend who lost a job for a year told me he doesn't want to look for a retail job cuz the salary will be lower than his unemployment. Even he is very capable of working on many respectful jobs but he chooses not to, he chooese to live off unemployment...why? Because he can. People make decisions based on incentives and when you tax people a lot you remove their incentives to work hard, and when you provide social welfare too much you give them incentive to shirk.

I have to say, even though I disagree with you, that is probably the most well thought out response on this thread so far.
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,031
7,872
Bush and Congress passed a one-year reprieve in the 2000s and billions came flowing back into the US. The real issue, though, is the high corporate tax rate in the US. At 35%, it is the 2nd highest in the world, and will soon be the highest once Japan lowers its tax. That's not counting state taxes, too. In Europe, 25% is more common.

By keeping income earned outside the US in those countries, companies can avoid paying US tax on that income (note that they will still pay foreign tax on that income)*. That gives companies an incentive to invest in their foreign subsidiaries, which is actually the intent of the current tax law. Whether that makes sense in the current environment is a public policy discussion worth having.

* Here's how it works. A company earns $1 billion in the UK, which has a 25% tax rate. They pay $250 million in UK tax. If they remit those earnings to the US, they pay an extra $100 million in US tax ($1 billion * 35% less a credit for the $250 million paid to the UK). However, if they keep those earnings in the UK, then they don't pay any extra US tax on that income.
 

razmage

macrumors newbie
Apr 1, 2010
11
0
I can understand them holding the money in the offshore accounts. And even if they bring it in it stays at the company level it wouldn't go to the execs. And if it did that tax hit would be huge. Imagine as it is now if they bring it over, pay 35% tax. Then they give that to an employee and pay another 38% on that. Thats 60%ish tax right there that goes to taxes.
 

djp2

macrumors member
Jan 16, 2010
57
0
and let me tell you why the money won't go into rich people's hands. all the VP, SVP, and executives have something called "salary." having the money in US or not will not change their employment agreement or salary level. Money in US will allow US companies to hire more US employees and invest in US capital such as plants, acquisitions, etc.

I'm gonna make a wild, crazy guess and say that AAPL won't be building a single US-based plant.;)
 

KPOM

macrumors P6
Oct 23, 2010
18,031
7,872
Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the U.S have some of the lowest tax rates among industrialized nations?

Not for corporations. Only Japan has a higher income tax than the US's 35% rate, and they are lowering their rate soon. On top of that, most states tax corporate income (adding another 5-10% or so). Sweden has a 28% tax on corporations (and 50%+ on individuals). Most of Europe is around the 25% range, and in Asia it tends to be even lower.
 

ladeer

macrumors 6502
Feb 15, 2007
391
10
Remember Adelphia, Bear-Sterns, Enron? Yeah those weren't companies that hid things and gave it to America in the rear.

those are exception to rules and bad apples in the rank of honest businesses.

if companies are going to cheat like they did, then it doesn't matter if they get this tax amnesty or not.

the fact that these company (apple and cisco) are lobbying means they are honest companies going thru legal route instead of cheat.

you can't compare the two otherwise u r just saying all corporations are evil and liar. then keep their money off-shore, what purpose does it serve?
 

KT Walrus

macrumors member
Jul 10, 2008
30
0
Apple could quite easily issue bonds to payout some of the overseas cash to shareholders. This is what Microsoft does regularly. Since Apple has the cash overseas, the bonds could be issued at a very low interest rate costing Apple next to nothing (and interest paid by Apple would be tax deductible).
 
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