Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > Mac Blog Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Mar 7, 2011, 06:11 PM   #26
roosta
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: May 2005
apple even acknowledges this through a page on their website about installing ram on the late 2008 macbooks

http://support.apple.com/kb/ht1651#link2
__________________
2012 mac mini,16 gb ram | 2006 Mac Pro, 12gb ram | 2008 unibody macbook, 500 gb, 8gb ram | 2006 intel imac 20", 250 gb, 2gb ram | iPad mini 32gb | 60gb iPod video, and a cat named snap
roosta is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 06:30 PM   #27
glimp7
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Austin, Texas, US
Send a message via Skype™ to glimp7
Wait a GD second!

In OSX, there's no way to disable the paging file (virtual memory). This is a real problem is if you have an SSD, because half the memory is allocated on the hard drive. That means your SSD will be toast in a few years. It doesn't matter how much stuff you have open (how much memory is allocated). The operating system is always writing memory to the hard drive. Does that seem counter-productive? When you open an app, the whole point is for it to be accessible in real time, right? And you don't want it destroying your SSD slowly over time!?

In Windows 7, you can disable the paging file, and all your memory can be allocated in physical memory. It's nice just to have the option. Apple, however, loves to hide these little details, so they force you too use whatever primary hard drive for virtual memory allocation, even if it's an SSD with a questionable life span, or even an HDD.

And the argument that you don't use more than 4GB of RAM, ever, is ridiculous! Maybe you're not commanding the system to by opening a bunch of apps, but the SYSTEM will be!

Yes. In Windows, if you go over the physical RAM amount and the paging file is turned off, you'll BSOD. But if you have enough RAM, you won't! Unless you run multiple VMs or several games at once, this won't be a problem.

Apple needs to allow users to decided whether they want a paging file, especially with the cost of SSDs. If one dies and it's not on warranty, it's not a good day. And I'm more than ready to blame it on virtual memory allocation.
__________________
iPhone 5
iPad (4th-generation)
15" Retina Macbook Pro
glimp7 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 06:56 PM   #28
xraydoc
macrumors Demi-God
 
xraydoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: 192.168.1.1
Nice. I probably would have bought an 8GB kit about 5-6 months ago when I added more RAM to my machine had I known about this, but I find the 6GB in it instead to be enough for my needs. That, plus the 120GB SSD I put in it about 3 months ago and it flies. Fast enough that I'm not looking to replace it any time soon (though the 11" MBA sure looks slick).
__________________
3.5GHz i7 27" iMac • Surface Pro 3 i5 • 2.5GHz i5 Mac mini + 27" Thunderbolt display • Nexus 5 • Nexus 7
xraydoc is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 07:02 PM   #29
jettredmont
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by toromac View Post
who needs 8gb, sheesh. i barely use 2gb of my 4gb of ram as it is. even using photoshop, I have never seen it max out.
As a developer, running our web app and my development environment, I'm maxing out 8GB of RAM fairly frequently. Were I also running our DB (which would have to be silo'd off in a VM running Windows as Oracle no longer supports OS X) 12GB RAM would be necessary, min.

My wife's machine has 4GB RAM and Flash enabled, and frequently starts showing 3.9GB+ "used" memory and things start stuttering. Hers will be getting an 8GB upgrade soon (and Click2Flash perhaps as well ...).
jettredmont is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 07:18 PM   #30
Eidorian
macrumors Penryn
 
Eidorian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cuidad de México
Send a message via AIM to Eidorian
Quote:
Originally Posted by toromac View Post
who needs 8gb, sheesh. i barely use 2gb of my 4gb of ram as it is. even using photoshop, I have never seen it max out.
It is dirt cheap and you do not get much of a price benefit purchasing lower density DIMMs.

Depending on the speed 4 GB x 2 hovers around the $59-99 sweet spot. I remember buying my 4 GB back in 2007 and this was in the age of 1 GB in Apple's notebooks.
__________________
Core i5 750 / 16 GB RAM / 500 GB SSD / HD 7950 / Windows 8.1
13" Retina MacBook Pro
Eidorian is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 07:27 PM   #31
voyagerd
macrumors 65816
 
voyagerd's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: Folsom, CA
Send a message via AIM to voyagerd Send a message via MSN to voyagerd Send a message via Yahoo to voyagerd Send a message via Skype™ to voyagerd
I wish I could get 8GB for my Early 2008, but it's probably the memory controller in Intel's chipset limiting it.
__________________
15" MacBook Pro / 2.6GHz C2D / 4GB / 750GB SSHD / 8600M GT
SR-2 Hackintosh / Dual Intel® Xeon® X5680@4.3GHz / 48GB RAM / 2x 480GB Intel SSDs / GeForce GTX 780
64GB iPhone 5S, 120GB iPod Classic
voyagerd is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 07:35 PM   #32
Amdahl
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Quote:
Originally Posted by glimp7 View Post
In OSX, there's no way to disable the paging file (virtual memory). This is a real problem is if you have an SSD, because half the memory is allocated on the hard drive.
It should be an option, definitely.

But, if you check Activity Monitor, System Memory tab, you can see how much has actually been swapped out. On my system, which has been up almost 3 days, it says 80KB. Even though it says I have 4MB of swap file 'in use,' and have 478MB of swap-ins. The discrepancy is likely partially due to executable code, which doesn't get swapped; it just gets thrown out, and reloaded from the executable file if needed. My actual swapfile is 64MB as allocated on disk.

So, if you do have enough RAM, OS X doesn't appear to be over-eager in writing to the swapfile to an extent that an SSD would have any reduced lifetime. But there is probably plenty of other places to look, such as temporary files, needless rewriting of large sections of data, web browser caches, etc.
Amdahl is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 07:56 PM   #33
nunes013
macrumors 65816
 
nunes013's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Connecticut
Quote:
Originally Posted by LimeiBook86 View Post
I have a 2.66 15" Late 2008 MacBook Pro, my firmware matches the upgraded listing to allow 8GB of RAM. Pretty cool
actually the computer you are talking about was an early 2009 upgrade. they upgraded to a 2.66 ghz on the mbp 15" and also more on the 17" mbp. i have the same computer and got confused because the computer thinks its a late 2008 when apple considers it an early 2009. however it was still one that only supported up to 4 gb until this upgrade. cant wait to add 8 gb. just waiting to find some that are on sale for like $80

http://www.everymac.com/systems/appl...ody-specs.html
__________________
15" 2012 Retina MacBook Pro, 2.3 Ghz Intel Core i7, 8 GB Ram, 256 GB SSD; iPhone 6+
nunes013 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 08:20 PM   #34
smithrh
macrumors 68020
 
smithrh's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Amdahl View Post
It should be an option, definitely.

But, if you check Activity Monitor, System Memory tab, you can see how much has actually been swapped out. On my system, which has been up almost 3 days, it says 80KB. Even though it says I have 4MB of swap file 'in use,' and have 478MB of swap-ins. The discrepancy is likely partially due to executable code, which doesn't get swapped; it just gets thrown out, and reloaded from the executable file if needed. My actual swapfile is 64MB as allocated on disk.

So, if you do have enough RAM, OS X doesn't appear to be over-eager in writing to the swapfile to an extent that an SSD would have any reduced lifetime. But there is probably plenty of other places to look, such as temporary files, needless rewriting of large sections of data, web browser caches, etc.
Unfortunately I cannot remember where I read this (believe it was Anandtech) but the fear of burning out any decent SSD is vastly overblown - it would take many years (10?) at 24x7 heavy use to even approach it.

Given the rate at which technology moves forward, I can't envision using any SSD bought today for more than, say, 5 years at the very most.
smithrh is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 09:32 PM   #35
jamesryanbell
macrumors 68020
 
jamesryanbell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by toromac View Post
who needs 8gb, sheesh. i barely use 2gb of my 4gb of ram as it is. even using photoshop, I have never seen it max out.
I maxed out my 4GB late '08 system last night with three massive pictures opened in Photoshop at the same time.
__________________
iPhone 5S White/Silver 64GB AT&T
iPad Air White/Silver 16GB AT&T
MBA 11" / 27" ACD / ATV3
jamesryanbell is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 10:52 PM   #36
jav6454
macrumors G5
 
jav6454's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: 1 Geostationary Tower Plaza
Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesryanbell View Post
I maxed out my 4GB late '08 system last night with three massive pictures opened in Photoshop at the same time.
I can easily max 4GB with just Safari, EW's Multisim and some Pages working. Trust me, I need the 8GB and my Collector's Edition MacBook will be happy to get this update.
__________________
Al MacBook 2.4GHz Late '08 | 5 S⃣ | Macross Click Me
jav6454 is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 10:57 PM   #37
akm3
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by toromac View Post
who needs 8gb, sheesh. i barely use 2gb of my 4gb of ram as it is. even using photoshop, I have never seen it max out.
I have 12gb RAM in my iMac and looking at iStat, after 17 days since last reboot I've had 83,053 pageouts!!

It's heartbreaking to know my Mac is having to do all those page outs I think I'm going to call OWC and upgrade to 16GB and see if that helps...
__________________
akm3 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 11:20 PM   #38
lostngone
macrumors 6502a
 
lostngone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Anchorage
Quote:
Originally Posted by glimp7 View Post
In OSX, there's no way to disable the paging file (virtual memory). This is a real problem is if you have an SSD, because half the memory is allocated on the hard drive. That means your SSD will be toast in a few years. It doesn't matter how much stuff you have open (how much memory is allocated). The operating system is always writing memory to the hard drive. Does that seem counter-productive? When you open an app, the whole point is for it to be accessible in real time, right? And you don't want it destroying your SSD slowly over time!?

ANY reading, writing or even running a conventional spindle based HD will slowly destroy it over time.

I have long runtimes on most of my systems and I average very few pageins/outs however it is very nice to have when the systems needs it.

Running a unix system out of memory will cause bad things to happen. I think most people would much rather take a small performance hit and have the system write out to swap rather then just fall over.

With things like hardware based wear leveling and TRIM this problem is greatly reduced. Also, in this day and age most people replace hard drives every few years anyways because of space needs alone.

Last edited by lostngone; Mar 7, 2011 at 11:44 PM.
lostngone is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 11:30 PM   #39
spillproof
macrumors 68020
 
spillproof's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: USA
I have 232MB free of 4GB. Photoshop and FCE don't like eachother!

Good to know I can upgrade, but I will most likely buy a new computer by the time I need it.
__________________
I don't know what to put here.
spillproof is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 11:37 PM   #40
dbendixen
macrumors newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by toromac View Post
who needs 8gb, sheesh. i barely use 2gb of my 4gb of ram as it is. even using photoshop, I have never seen it max out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasJL View Post
What about the mid 2009 white MacBooks?

That was the last non-LED white MacBook. Is there a firmware update for that to unlock support for 8 GB RAM?
I have 4GB in my 15" MBP and I consistently max out. Anyone using a Mac in a professional setting (business or video/film/graphics) will always be able to use 4GB very quickly. Even when my primary machine was my Mac mini with 8GB, I regularly used over 6GB.

Trust me, when it maxes out you'll know it. Your smooth Mac becomes very unresponsive and sluggish...
dbendixen is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 11:39 PM   #41
dbendixen
macrumors newbie
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by lg2k7 View Post
I saw this on 9to5mac and it does work, ordered the ram on saturday from amazon and it works.
What RAM did you use? I tried to swap my memory (same specs) from my Mac mini (8GB) into my MBP and I just got the three beeps of death when I tried to turn it on. Does it have to be a specific brand and/or spec?
dbendixen is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 11:39 PM   #42
Rodimus Prime
Banned
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by toromac View Post
who needs 8gb, sheesh. i barely use 2gb of my 4gb of ram as it is. even using photoshop, I have never seen it max out.
well you have to remember the OS is going to see more ram free and be more willing to use it. It likes to keep so much free for the OS and become pickier the closer to gets to maxing it out. I would say the same thing but I have 6 gigs in my current computer and have crossed 4 gigs all the time. I can watch how quickly it will climb until it starts getting close to crossing 4 gigs then it wants to start to be a little picker and slows down its rate of climb.
Rodimus Prime is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 7, 2011, 11:45 PM   #43
Detektiv-Pinky
macrumors 6502a
 
Detektiv-Pinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Berlin, Germany
Quote:
Originally Posted by akm3 View Post
I have 12gb RAM in my iMac and looking at iStat, after 17 days since last reboot I've had 83,053 pageouts!!

It's heartbreaking to know my Mac is having to do all those page outs I think I'm going to call OWC and upgrade to 16GB and see if that helps...
And a page is like 4 kByte? So you had 320 MByte written do disk - over 17 days? I would not think this is much.

Activity Monitor shows a nice summary of your hard disk activity. I think most people vastly overestimate the amount of data that gets written to disk...
__________________
Anecdotal evidence is an oxymoron!
Detektiv-Pinky is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 8, 2011, 12:16 AM   #44
throttlemeister
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Netherlands
Quote:
Originally Posted by akm3 View Post
I have 12gb RAM in my iMac and looking at iStat, after 17 days since last reboot I've had 83,053 pageouts!!

It's heartbreaking to know my Mac is having to do all those page outs I think I'm going to call OWC and upgrade to 16GB and see if that helps...
Boohoo.

How many page ins? Close to or over a million? If the # of page outs is < half # of page ins, there is absolutely no reason at all to upgrade memory. It won't make your system any faster or better responsive. If it is more than half, your system could use a memory upgrade and the closer the two numbers are together, the higher your need for memory.

Number of page outs are completely irrelevant and don't mean diddle squat, unless viewed in relation to the number of page ins.
__________________
Macbook Pro 2.93 | 8GB | 120GB OWC Extreme Pro + 320GB/7200rpm | 24" LED Cinema Screen
Macbook Pro Retina 2.7 | 16GB | 512MB Flash | 1TB Crucial SSD external over Thunderbolt
throttlemeister is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 8, 2011, 03:05 AM   #45
smileyborg
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: May 2009
Great deal!

Coincidentally, Newegg just launched a shell shocker for a 8GB (2 x 4GB) kit of Corsair RAM for $69.99 free shipping. Corsair is one of the major brands along with Kingston, Crucial, etc. There seem to be a few negative reviews for dead sticks on this particular product, however the RAM comes with plenty of warranties (30-day Newegg and Lifetime Corsair), so it should be fine to take the deal and just run Memtest for a while once you install it to make sure you didn't get any defective sticks.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820233081

This deal will only last for a few more hours, then it's up (10am PST).
__________________
OS X: 2012 15" Retina MacBook Pro, 2012 Mac mini, Late 2008 Aluminum Unibody MacBook
iOS: 64GB Space Grey iPhone 5s, 32GB Space Grey Retina iPad mini
Twitter: smileyborg
smileyborg is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 8, 2011, 05:48 AM   #46
blackburn
macrumors 6502a
 
blackburn's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Where Judas lost it's boots.
Quote:
Originally Posted by glimp7 View Post
In OSX, there's no way to disable the paging file (virtual memory). This is a real problem is if you have an SSD, because half the memory is allocated on the hard drive. That means your SSD will be toast in a few years. It doesn't matter how much stuff you have open (how much memory is allocated). The operating system is always writing memory to the hard drive. Does that seem counter-productive? When you open an app, the whole point is for it to be accessible in real time, right? And you don't want it destroying your SSD slowly over time!?

In Windows 7, you can disable the paging file, and all your memory can be allocated in physical memory. It's nice just to have the option. Apple, however, loves to hide these little details, so they force you too use whatever primary hard drive for virtual memory allocation, even if it's an SSD with a questionable life span, or even an HDD.

And the argument that you don't use more than 4GB of RAM, ever, is ridiculous! Maybe you're not commanding the system to by opening a bunch of apps, but the SYSTEM will be!

Yes. In Windows, if you go over the physical RAM amount and the paging file is turned off, you'll BSOD. But if you have enough RAM, you won't! Unless you run multiple VMs or several games at once, this won't be a problem.

Apple needs to allow users to decided whether they want a paging file, especially with the cost of SSDs. If one dies and it's not on warranty, it's not a good day. And I'm more than ready to blame it on virtual memory allocation.
You CAN disable paging. I have disabled on my macbook. I have 0 page outs. Now I don't know what happens if I fill the 8gb

I have also changed sleep to stop writing to the ssd, and changed the mount options to noatime.
__________________
Lenovo ThinkPad + Nexus 7 (2nd Gen)
blackburn is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 8, 2011, 06:58 AM   #47
SmileyDude
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: MA
Send a message via AIM to SmileyDude
I think (and I'm not at all qualified in GAP to say for sure one way or the other on this) that the reason Apple doesn't need to charge for this is that even though they advertised it as being able to take up to 4GB of RAM, it's not really a feature, it's a bug. The customer already has to purchase RAM on their own. It's the firmware on the device that isn't working properly with the RAM they purchased. So, Apple can slip in the fix that allows the machine to properly recognize 8GB of RAM and not have any problems with accounting procedures.

Also, Apple products are notorious for accepting more RAM than Apple advertised -- my previous MacBook2,1 had 4GB installed, which left about 3.5GB usable. Apple advertised that it's max was 2GB, but it worked just fine with 4GB in it. I know there are others as well that I had with more RAM in them than the max advertised.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stridder44 View Post
That would be such absolute BS but it wouldn't surprise me at all. "Oh, you want to be able to use more RAM in your Mac? Well that wasn't advertised when we sold it to you, so in order to be able to do that you'll need to hand over $1".
__________________
dennis
SmileyDude is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 8, 2011, 07:18 AM   #48
bentoms
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
ordered!

just got 4GB for my late 2008 macbook pro..

just ordered 8GB & will test this weekend..

good thing crucial have a 45 days returns policy
bentoms is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 8, 2011, 08:44 AM   #49
Tailpike1153
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Fort Wayne, IN
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stridder44 View Post
That would be such absolute BS but it wouldn't surprise me at all. "Oh, you want to be able to use more RAM in your Mac? Well that wasn't advertised when we sold it to you, so in order to be able to do that you'll need to hand over $1".
GAA is a mutherfu....bberinksy! I wonder if Apple says the previous 6GB cap was imposed due to a defect in design/manufacturing. The firmware update address the "memory defect" and other problems. This way with the firmware update they would be addressing the defect instead of adding a feature. Consumers keep their soda/candy money. Those 3 class action lawyers would have a field day with Apple's "covering up the defect." Just some ramblings.

Last edited by Tailpike1153; Mar 8, 2011 at 11:03 AM.
Tailpike1153 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 8, 2011, 08:50 AM   #50
toromac
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
I've never used all 4gb, but my activity monitor shows VM size as over 150gb, page ins at 3.15gb and page outs at 0. WTF? I have an SSD. Does this mean my computer is using my SSD instead of RAM and why if there is still 1-2 GB free constantly.
toromac is offline   0 Reply With Quote

Reply
MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > Mac Blog Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
RAM issues? (Late 2008 MB (aluminum)) wintercs MacBook 11 Oct 29, 2013 06:18 PM
Resolved: Does macbook (late 2007) support a maximum of 4gb RAM or 6gb RAM? ItsDaKronic MacBook 2 Sep 18, 2013 07:06 AM
Upgrading RAM Late 2008 MBP looseyjuice MacBook Pro 2 May 15, 2013 01:58 AM
Late 2012 iMac Support for 64GB of RAM? Hexley iMac 3 Feb 25, 2013 02:09 PM
3GB ram late 2008 MacBook xmarcuswildx MacBook 8 Aug 9, 2012 02:03 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:58 AM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC