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Old Mar 16, 2011, 10:06 AM   #26
Peterkro
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Originally Posted by R.Perez View Post
I suggest everyone read the book "Imagined Communities"


Nationalism is a lie.
I notice nobody has commented on your post so far.It's hard to take part in a discussion when the parameters are limited to "nation states".The broad left has had at it's heart Internationalism since the nineteenth century,unfortunately for us Capitalism has cottoned on to this in the last fifty years and are using it to increase exploitation.The only way to fight back is our Internationalism,so yes indeed Nationalism is a lie.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 10:10 AM   #27
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Perhaps you could remind this sad and pathetic individual exactly how US adventurism and hegemonic ambition in South America, the Philippines, Iran, Somalia, Egypt, Israel, Cuba, Afghanistan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, and Vietnam has expanded freedom, liberty, prosperity and small government in those areas?
I advocate a non-interventionist foreign policy. As such, I would put such things into the 'Are we perfect? No.' category.
Since Woodrow Wilson, we've increasingly pushed ourselves further and further into foreign conflicts, it's a very bad thing generally.



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Fivepoint, some of us radical, leftist, marxist, commie, red-bastards you hate so much actually fight for things like your right to post what you just did. We (radical lefties) fight for religious freedom, including the freedom to be free of religion. We fight for individual liberties, including, in many cases, the freedom to have firearms (admittedly, there are differences of opinion on whether to impose reasonable or more restrictive regulations). We fight for internet neutrality. We fight for neutral judges who actually rule based on the merits of cases. We fight for average workers. We fight for the right of a business to operate, but we also fight to make sure that their operations don't kill people.

Personally, I love my country, but I'm not so stupid to think that we are as a people, a nation, automatically better than everyone else. In 1776, we fought hard to establish a great country, and then we had to fight to keep it and defend it. Now, the radical, right-wing, tea-bag, fringe wants to eliminate many of the things that make us great. And, you're defending them, and saying those of us fighting against corporate interests and elimination of protections for the American people are the bad guys.

America doesn't have its exceptionalism automatically. We have to fight for it. You want to just give it away. I'll be at my voting booth doing my part to cancel out your vote. Why? Because I actually love my country and I care about my neighbors.
Mcrain, I believe you to be a good Democrat. A moral left of center individual. What I also believe is that you're a bit naive as to the individuals that are actually in control of your party and the direction the left in this country is taking us. There are many on the left who think religion should be pushed out of society whereever possible, that firearms should be made illegal, that the government should regulate the internet/radio/etc. and content therein, that think that judges should be free to invent new law where they personally see it as moral even if it directly refutes the constitution. There are many on the left that take fighting for 'workers' way to far ala Marx and see it as a battle between the haves and the have-nots (class warfare in it's simplest form), etc. Every political party has it's extremists, but yours is being over run by them. Many of the policies advocated by the modern Democrat party (and supported by many neo-cons) are things that are wholly against the true American spirit and what set us apart as a nation. I think good common sense Democrats can realize this if they really think about it. Also, the tea party isn't extreme, it's fundamental in it's support for all of the principles I stated earlier. They want to get us back to the values that made this country great, and you make them out to be evil. Sad, I think you're better than that.

You're EXACTLY right that America doesn't have its exceptionalism automatically. And frankly, we're losing it more and more every day. The solution is to go back and talk about the things that made us great, the things we still have going for us, not to say that America is just another country... because it isn't.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 10:26 AM   #28
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What I also believe is that you're a bit naive as to the individuals that are actually in control of your party and the direction the left in this country is taking us.
Assume you're right. Assume that I'm naive as to the individuals that are in control of the Democrats. What does that say about you? Either you are naive and you blindly support the Republicans and their agendas, or you aren't naive, and you support them anyway.

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There are many on the left who think religion should be pushed out of society whereever possible, that firearms should be made illegal, that the government should regulate the internet/radio/etc. and content therein, that think that judges should be free to invent new law where they personally see it as moral even if it directly refutes the constitution.
And there are tea party members and republicans who think blacks are less intelligent, mexicans can't read and shouldn't be allowed to vote, dinosaurs never existed, science is a scam, etc... I'll take my parties nuts over yours.

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Every political party has it's extremists, but yours is being over run by them.
Um, you support the tea party! That makes this the quote of the day in my book. Dripping in irony.

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Also, the tea party isn't extreme, it's fundamental in it's support for all of the principles I stated earlier.
Except, they support the Michigan GOP efforts to steal democracy away from the voters, they support citizens united, they support radical policies that are very clearly unAmerican and unConstitutional (like AZ anti-immigrant laws) and efforts to limit voting rights.

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They want to get us back to the values that made this country great, and you make them out to be evil. Sad, I think you're better than that.
I don't think they are evil, I think they are self-serving, greedy, and very, very scared of anyone who doesn't look like them or pray like them. There is a difference.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 10:27 AM   #29
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The solution is to go back and talk about the things that made us great, the things we still have going for us, not to say that America is just another country... because it isn't.
I'm afraid it is, you know. It is just another crappy nation state run by corporations and their lying politicians for their own benefit.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 10:51 AM   #30
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I advocate a non-interventionist foreign policy. As such, I would put such things into the 'Are we perfect? No.' category.
Since Woodrow Wilson, we've increasingly pushed ourselves further and further into foreign conflicts, it's a very bad thing generally.





Mcrain, I believe you to be a good Democrat. A moral left of center individual. What I also believe is that you're a bit naive as to the individuals that are actually in control of your party and the direction the left in this country is taking us. There are many on the left who think religion should be pushed out of society whereever possible, that firearms should be made illegal, that the government should regulate the internet/radio/etc. and content therein, that think that judges should be free to invent new law where they personally see it as moral even if it directly refutes the constitution. There are many on the left that take fighting for 'workers' way to far ala Marx and see it as a battle between the haves and the have-nots (class warfare in it's simplest form), etc. Every political party has it's extremists, but yours is being over run by them. Many of the policies advocated by the modern Democrat party (and supported by many neo-cons) are things that are wholly against the true American spirit and what set us apart as a nation. I think good common sense Democrats can realize this if they really think about it. Also, the tea party isn't extreme, it's fundamental in it's support for all of the principles I stated earlier. They want to get us back to the values that made this country great, and you make them out to be evil. Sad, I think you're better than that.

You're EXACTLY right that America doesn't have its exceptionalism automatically. And frankly, we're losing it more and more every day. The solution is to go back and talk about the things that made us great, the things we still have going for us, not to say that America is just another country... because it isn't.
Yeah. The Tea Party is neat:

http://news.change.org/stories/the-t...o-gay-marriage
http://thinkprogress.org/2010/08/31/...-boehner-ohio/
http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plu...at_odds_w.html

Some great values right there that make this country great.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 11:52 AM   #31
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Anything that isn't about gay "rights?"
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 11:54 AM   #32
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Mcrain, I believe you to be a good Democrat. A moral left of center individual. What I also believe is that you're a bit naive as to the individuals that are actually in control of your party and the direction the left in this country is taking us. There are many on the left who think religion should be pushed out of society whereever possible, that firearms should be made illegal, that the government should regulate the internet/radio/etc. and content therein, that think that judges should be free to invent new law where they personally see it as moral even if it directly refutes the constitution. There are many on the left that take fighting for 'workers' way to far ala Marx and see it as a battle between the haves and the have-nots (class warfare in it's simplest form), etc. Every political party has it's extremists, but yours is being over run by them. Many of the policies advocated by the modern Democrat party (and supported by many neo-cons) are things that are wholly against the true American spirit and what set us apart as a nation. I think good common sense Democrats can realize this if they really think about it. Also, the tea party isn't extreme, it's fundamental in it's support for all of the principles I stated earlier. They want to get us back to the values that made this country great, and you make them out to be evil. Sad, I think you're better than that.

You're EXACTLY right that America doesn't have its exceptionalism automatically. And frankly, we're losing it more and more every day. The solution is to go back and talk about the things that made us great, the things we still have going for us, not to say that America is just another country... because it isn't.

Comedy gold.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 11:55 AM   #33
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Anything that isn't about gay "rights?"
Can you post anything substantial? That issue affects me directly and impacts my life.

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Comedy gold.
Rather surreal, isn't it?
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 12:08 PM   #34
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That issue affects me directly and impacts my life.
Which is, at the core, why you don't like them. i.e. you're biased.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 12:10 PM   #35
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Anything that isn't about gay "rights?"
Well it seems pretty hypocritical for a group that preaches liberty and freedom to support legislation that would take away the liberties and freedoms of another group of people.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 12:15 PM   #36
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Which is, at the core, why you don't like them. i.e. you're biased.
Biased? WTF? Yeah, I don't take too kindly to people who target my rights. I don't find people like that to be very nice. What do you find difficult to understand about that?

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Well it seems pretty hypocritical for a group that preaches liberty and freedom to support legislation that would take away the liberties and freedoms of another group of people.
Sure does.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 12:18 PM   #37
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Which is, at the core, why you don't like them. i.e. you're biased.
I don't like them either, because I do not agree with discrimination based on sexual orientation. Am I biased?
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 01:45 PM   #38
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I advocate a non-interventionist foreign policy. As such, I would put such things into the 'Are we perfect? No.' category.
Since Woodrow Wilson, we've increasingly pushed ourselves further and further into foreign conflicts, it's a very bad thing generally.





Mcrain, I believe you to be a good Democrat. A moral left of center individual. What I also believe is that you're a bit naive as to the individuals that are actually in control of your party and the direction the left in this country is taking us. There are many on the left who think religion should be pushed out of society whereever possible, that firearms should be made illegal, that the government should regulate the internet/radio/etc. and content therein, that think that judges should be free to invent new law where they personally see it as moral even if it directly refutes the constitution. There are many on the left that take fighting for 'workers' way to far ala Marx and see it as a battle between the haves and the have-nots (class warfare in it's simplest form), etc. Every political party has it's extremists, but yours is being over run by them. Many of the policies advocated by the modern Democrat party (and supported by many neo-cons) are things that are wholly against the true American spirit and what set us apart as a nation. I think good common sense Democrats can realize this if they really think about it. Also, the tea party isn't extreme, it's fundamental in it's support for all of the principles I stated earlier. They want to get us back to the values that made this country great, and you make them out to be evil. Sad, I think you're better than that.

You're EXACTLY right that America doesn't have its exceptionalism automatically. And frankly, we're losing it more and more every day. The solution is to go back and talk about the things that made us great, the things we still have going for us, not to say that America is just another country... because it isn't.

I am perfectly fine with class war. In fact, the rich have been in a class war with the poor for decades now. It is about time that the poor start fighting back.

Also posting on macrumors and talking down on net neutrality is a little insane. Net Neutrality is not about government "regulating the internet", it is about stopping corporations from limiting people's free and open access to it.

The "great America" you speak of, our period of largest economic growth was when we had a upper income tax bracket of 70%.

A Tea Party America is not "real America", it is a neo-liberal economic disaster waiting to happen.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 02:02 PM   #39
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I am perfectly fine with class war. In fact, the rich have been in a class war with the poor for decades now. It is about time that the poor start fighting back.

Also posting on macrumors and talking down on net neutrality is a little insane. Net Neutrality is not about government "regulating the internet", it is about stopping corporations from limiting people's free and open access to it.

The "great America" you speak of, our period of largest economic growth was when we had a upper income tax bracket of 70%.

A Tea Party America is not "real America", it is a neo-liberal economic disaster waiting to happen.


I find if you mentally put 'duh, winning' after each of his posts, they make that much more sense. YMMV.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 02:08 PM   #40
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Also posting on macrumors and talking down on net neutrality is a little insane. Net Neutrality is not about government "regulating the internet", it is about stopping corporations from limiting people's free and open access to it.
Quickly, answer these two very simple questions!

1) What is the single best media resource for information, interaction, sharing, developing, etc. with people from all over the world today?
2) Which media resource for information today is the single least regulated by our government, and most representative of free market values?

DING DING DING! The answer in both cases is THE INTERNET! Coincidence? I think not.
Net Neutrality is a solution in search of a problem. Look what gov't did to TV, to radio. Why not keep the internet free of such BS?
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 02:17 PM   #41
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Quickly, answer these two very simple questions!

1) What is the single best media resource for information, interaction, sharing, developing, etc. with people from all over the world today?
2) Which media resource for information today is the single least regulated by our government, and most representative of free market values?

DING DING DING! The answer in both cases is THE INTERNET! Coincidence? I think not.
Net Neutrality is a solution in search of a problem. Look what gov't did to TV, to radio. Why not keep the internet free of such BS?
Umm what? The ISP's have tried throttling the internet before, the government told them they couldn't. ISP's have made it perfectly clear what they want to do with the internet, they want to prioritize traffic. Net Neutrality simply says that all traffic should be treated the same, simple, its what the word NEUTRAL MEANS


Edit: You also refused to acknowledge that what tea party "activists" are calling for economically has never, ever been done in the US before. It is an economic experiment, a theory, and where it has been tried, it hasn't worked out so well. (See Chile under Pinochet)

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Milton Friedman used the term "Miracle of Chile" in reference to Augusto Pinochet's support for liberal economic changes in Chile carried out by the "Chicago Boys". Their implemented economic model had three main objectives: economic liberalization, privatization of state owned companies, and stabilization of inflation. These market-oriented economic policies were continued and strengthened by successive governments after Pinochet stepped down.[31] At the time, Milton Friedman stated that the Chilean experiment was "comparable to the economic miracle of post-war Germany."
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The economic policies espoused by the Chicago Boys and implemented by the junta initially caused several economic indicators to decline for Chile's lower classes.[47] Wages decreased by 8%.[48] Family allowances in 1989 were 28% of what they had been in 1970 and the budgets for education, health and housing had dropped by over 20% on average[48] The junta relied on the middle class, the oligarchy, huge foreign corporations, and foreign loans to maintain itself.[49] The oligarchy recovered most of its lost industrial and agricultural holdings, for the junta sold to private buyers most of the industries expropriated by Allende's Popular Unity government. This period saw the expansion of monopolies and widespread speculation.
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 02:19 PM   #42
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Umm what? The ISP's have tried throttling the internet before, the government told them they couldn't. ISP's have made it perfectly clear what they want to do with the internet, they want to prioritize traffic. Net Neutrality simply says that all traffic should be treated the same, simple, its what the word NEUTRAL MEANS
B-b-b-but...it's the government! Government always bad!
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Old Mar 16, 2011, 02:26 PM   #43
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Quickly, answer these two very simple questions!

1) What is the single best media resource for information, interaction, sharing, developing, etc. with people from all over the world today?
2) Which media resource for information today is the single least regulated by our government, and most representative of free market values?

DING DING DING! The answer in both cases is THE INTERNET! Coincidence? I think not.
Net Neutrality is a solution in search of a problem. Look what gov't did to TV, to radio. Why not keep the internet free of such BS?
What are you not understanding? The 'net is that wonderful medium because it is mostly content-neutral right now. The telecoms that manage traffic want to take that away. They want to be able to effectively restrict and expedite traffic on the basis of what they consider more or less important. Initially, it would be about pinching off the video sites that compete with the carrier's own video vendor. Then at some point, you will have to pay to move data, and it will be exactly like cell service: fees at both ends of the pipe. Eventually it would come down to the point where they could simply choke off your web site because they are angry about what you have to say.

So, yes, the problem does not exist — but it will become a reality if we ignore it, a lovely addition to your "free market".
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Old Apr 11, 2011, 06:27 PM   #44
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The last two months have indicated something very substantial if you bother to watch the news observing what Republicans are trying to achieve in government.

Average citizens asking Republicans to fix the Federal budget is like a cross between being suicidal and asking to have your throat cut. If you look at their proposals regarding taxes for the next 10 year, they want to give TRILLIONS, I said TRILLIONS to the MOST WEALTHY of this country and they want AVERAGE CITIZENS to pay for it. Come on, get into the spirit, lets all agree to work till we are 70 to help those poor folk out.

The point is a budget is made up of taxes and revenue. If you are going to extend the Bush tax cuts and give the richest 900 BILLION what credibility do you have exactly to make responsible choices?

If the Republican Party gets their way you and I are screwed.
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Old Apr 11, 2011, 07:45 PM   #45
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If you look at their proposals regarding taxes for the next 10 year, they want to give TRILLIONS, I said TRILLIONS to the MOST WEALTHY of this country and they want AVERAGE CITIZENS to pay for it.
If the average citizen includes the 40-50% (I think this is the right figure) who currently pay no income taxes, I'm all for them paying more. Even the lowest income earners should kick in a little, for their self-respect if nothing else.
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Old Apr 11, 2011, 09:23 PM   #46
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If you look at their proposals regarding taxes for the next 10 year, they want to give TRILLIONS, I said TRILLIONS to the MOST WEALTHY of this country and they want AVERAGE CITIZENS to pay for it. Come on, get into the spirit, lets all agree to work till we are 70 to help those poor folk out.
Find me a proposal that gives the wealthy money. I think you need to cut down on the rhetoric...
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Old Apr 11, 2011, 10:38 PM   #47
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The last two months have indicated something very substantial if you bother to watch the news observing what Republicans are trying to achieve in government.

Average citizens asking Republicans to fix the Federal budget is like a cross between being suicidal and asking to have your throat cut. If you look at their proposals regarding taxes for the next 10 year, they want to give TRILLIONS, I said TRILLIONS to the MOST WEALTHY of this country and they want AVERAGE CITIZENS to pay for it. Come on, get into the spirit, lets all agree to work till we are 70 to help those poor folk out.

The point is a budget is made up of taxes and revenue. If you are going to extend the Bush tax cuts and give the richest 900 BILLION what credibility do you have exactly to make responsible choices?

If the Republican Party gets their way you and I are screwed.

I am sorry, but the way this country is heading the system will collapse.. I have been saying this for years now.. We must get rid of the FEDERAL RESERVE and IRS and I am all for this.. Ron Paul even is for the end of the Federal Reserve as they are the main reason why we are in this mess.. THEN THE AMERICAN PEOPLE NEED TO TAKE POWER back from the tyrannical, anti-democratic, and ANTI-FREEDOM CORPORATIONS..

America needs to get rid of corporate rule over the people for this country to get better, otherwise we have signed its death warrant.. The key to making America a truly free nation - GET RID OF THE BANKS, get rid of the FEDERAL RESERVE - Put Bernake and his cohorts up a wall and shoot them.. Lying morons.

POWER TO THE PEOPLE!!!!!! End Corporate rule, DESTROY THE FEDERAL RESERVE!! VOTE 2012 RON PAUL.

HE MAY VERY WELL BE THE LAST HOPE THIS COUNTRY HAS.. and you all are so freaking blind to listening to the CORPORATE, EDITED RUN MEDIA... Thats why I don't watch corporate media like, CNN, CBS, NBC, ETC...

because they only report what you, the American citizen need to hear and DISTORT THE TRUTH.. Unemployment rate is not 8.9 percent, try near 15-18 percent.. These morons don't want you to know the truth, well the truth is:

GAS PRICES ARE GOING UP UP UP.. Expect close to 5 or at 5 dollars a gallon - TIME TO REVOLT.
FOOD Prices are going up - TIME TO CHANGE the system, time to take back the country from corporate nazis.

JOBS? Our once great labor force has been shipped over seas.. I firmly believe that unemployment will be extended even into 2012-2015 UNLESS SOMETHING is done to bring the jobs back from India, China, etc..

I am sorry I am ranting, but I speak the truth as I am witnessing this happen in my own state, Maryland..

No way am I going to pay 5 dollars a gallon for gas... REVOLUTION OR ENSLAVEMENT? Screw the corporations, banks, and the FEDERAL RESERVE.

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Old Apr 11, 2011, 10:51 PM   #48
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No way am I going to pay 5 dollars a gallon for gas... REVOLUTION OR ENSLAVEMENT? Screw the corporations, banks, and the FEDERAL RESERVE.
Or fix it... but the Republicans will only be able to fix things for a small minority of citizens, the ones who really don't need the help. Republicans now want to lower the tax rate for the richest of Americans back to 1930s tax rates and remove $2.9 trillion revenue for the next 10 years. We have a gi-normous deficit and we get to see Republicans looking out for the rich guys and CUTTING TAXES. Sweet. How do we balance our deficit like this? (Please no trickle down BS.) And gosh, who will make up the difference? Take a guess.

BTW where do you live in Md? I grew up in Prince Georges County/Upper Marlboro.
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Old Apr 12, 2011, 12:02 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by obeygiant View Post
This from the man who believes that the root of ALL evil are Republicans.
Now, no one believes this to be true...mainly because it requires a level of competency the Republicans are simply incapable of.

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Originally Posted by mcrain View Post
And there are tea party members and republicans who think blacks are less intelligent, mexicans can't read and shouldn't be allowed to vote, dinosaurs never existed, science is a scam, etc... I'll take my parties nuts over yours.
And twice on Sunday.

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Originally Posted by Joshuarocks View Post
GAS PRICES ARE GOING UP UP UP.. Expect close to 5 or at 5 dollars a gallon - TIME TO REVOLT.
If I don't meet you at the corner of Lexington and Concord by the end of the month, start the revolution without me.

Time to revolt? Time to take the bus, Mario.
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Old Apr 12, 2011, 12:06 AM   #50
Joshuarocks
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
The last two months have indicated something very substantial if you bother to watch the news observing what Republicans are trying to achieve in government.

Average citizens asking Republicans to fix the Federal budget is like a cross between being suicidal and asking to have your throat cut. If you look at their proposals regarding taxes for the next 10 year, they want to give TRILLIONS, I said TRILLIONS to the MOST WEALTHY of this country and they want AVERAGE CITIZENS to pay for it. Come on, get into the spirit, lets all agree to work till we are 70 to help those poor folk out.

The point is a budget is made up of taxes and revenue. If you are going to extend the Bush tax cuts and give the richest 900 BILLION what credibility do you have exactly to make responsible choices?

If the Republican Party gets their way you and I are screwed.
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Originally Posted by Huntn View Post
Or fix it... but the Republicans will only be able to fix things for a small minority of citizens, the ones who really don't need the help. Republicans now want to lower the tax rate for the richest of Americans back to 1930s tax rates and remove $2.9 trillion revenue for the next 10 years. We have a gi-normous deficit and we get to see Republicans looking out for the rich guys and CUTTING TAXES. Sweet. How do we balance our deficit like this? (Please no trickle down BS.) And gosh, who will make up the difference? Take a guess.

I invite you to look at this link - this is what is going on right now.. but it will get worse if we don't wake up!

http://therearenosunglasses.wordpres...-even-know-it/

I am surprised, very surprised all those on these forums are so blind and brainwashed into thinking the US Government is our friend... on the contrary, it is NOT our friend.. and it has gotten too large and extremely volatile and powerful.

BTW where do you live in Md? I grew up in Prince Georges County/Upper Marlboro.
Baltimore, MD - the slum of the Earth.. Well, I reside in Baltimore County, not the slum called Baltimore City and I am really tired of all the bull and lies that our government has been doing.. We have allowed the US Government to become too large and too powerful and it only serves the 5 percent in this country while the majority of us(yes, u included) have to suffer for it. As for who will make up the difference, WE DO.. the majority who are slaves to corporate rule and corporations + Banks.

As I mentioned in a previous post in another thread, RON PAUL may very well be America's LAST hope, as he wants to totally dismantle and destroy the Federal Reserve by repealing the amendment of 1919 that Woodrow Wilson signed.. Paul is also against the IRS and calls for its dissolution as well.

He is a threat to the Republicans and tea partiers, no doubt.. and they will do everything in their power to stop him from being the next President, but Ron Paul is no fool as he knows things if they keep going the way they are, simply will get to the point that it can't be fixed or repaired and will require a complete collapse and start from scratch again - which is what they should have done in the 1st place..

Once we knock out the Federal Reserve and stop off shore banking and corporate rule, then America can truly be the free country we all love and cherish.. until then, corporate rule, totalitarian POLICE STATE rules are going to be in place..

Did you hear about the possibility of surgical micro chips being implanted in the people? BIG BROTHER IS WATCHING.

Last edited by Joshuarocks; Apr 12, 2011 at 12:12 AM. Reason: Added link..
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