Apple Testifies on Mobile Privacy, Location Cache Encryption Coming to iOS

Full of Win said:

Yes, by Federal law, cell phones have to be locatable to a degree. However, the difference, the big difference, that you gloss over is accessibility of the data. There is a layer of protection that surrounds the location data from my iPhone (and iPad) logged in this way with the telco verses none with the logging of location done by Apple that is stored locally on the computer and device. Another point that you seem to not mention is disclosure. It is well know that phones are tracked to a degree as part of E911. However, what Apple did, collecting location data for its own purposes even after location services was turned off, was not disclosed to the user. This was wrong.

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LOL! I sooooo disagree. My goodness... do they need to disclose every single cached file for every application? Maybe our government will insist on a 10 page document in 2pt type disclosing all the file structure techniques for every application on your phone, on your computer, etc...

You just love to find something to complain about.

Like I said before... want my file? I'll give it to you. Tell me where I live and send you a $50 gift certificate for dinner. Just mail me a self addressed return envelope and I'll send you the gift card.

This is so freak'n ridiculous.

42streetsdown said:

except the location cache still wouldn't tell them where you've been

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bikemonkey said:

But it was stated by Apple (link not at hand I'm afraid) that it cached WiFi/cell towers up to 100 miles away. So, really, nothing substantial can be proven. Also, let's not forget that (AFAIK) it's only caching the location of the hotspots and not the triangulated data of your exact position.

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Is there really still this much confusion over the issue? Of course, the location cache can tell people where you've been. Have you not seen the plotted maps generated from the cache?

Yes, the cell tower locations only indicate that you've been within 100 miles or so of the tower. But what's the range on WiFi? A couple hundred feet at best? That's a pretty narrow location. If I sync with my work computer and the wifi network at our largest competitor shows up in my logs, my employer might have some questions. And, of course, the combination of all the different information in the cache provides an even more precise location. That's why it's there!

Just to be clear, I don't think Apple did anything nefarious here. Their response was relatively quick and dealt with the privacy concerns appropriately. They could have, or possibly even should have, anticipated these concerns, but they didn't. Conspiracy theories aside, Apple gained nothing from this data.

But the privacy concerns were real and appropriate.

aiqw9182 said:

You can watch it here:
http://cspan.org/Events/Congress-Looks-into-Protecting-Mobile-Privacy/10737421417-1/

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Bud Tribble's testimony begins at around 1:19:00

BaldiMac said:

Is there really still this much confusion over the issue? Of course, the location cache can tell people where you've been. Have you not seen the plotted maps generated from the cache?

Yes, the cell tower locations only indicate that you've been within 100 miles or so of the tower. But what's the range on WiFi? A couple hundred feet at best? That's a pretty narrow location. If I sync with my work computer and the wifi network at our largest competitor shows up in my logs, my employer might have some questions. And, of course, the combination of all the different information in the cache provides an even more precise location. That's why it's there!

Just to be clear, I don't think Apple did anything nefarious here. Their response was relatively quick and dealt with the privacy concerns appropriately. They could have, or possibly even should have, anticipated these concerns, but they didn't. Conspiracy theories aside, Apple gained nothing from this data.

But the privacy concerns were real and appropriate.

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How is your boss going to get the file on your iPhone or on your back-up???

The privacy concerns are overblown and paranoid. Good to see them fixed, but there are a heck of a lot more things to worry about than some generic and vague data on the iPhone location log.

DocNYz said:

Apple doesn't gather our private information then sell it to advertisers without asking or letting us know the way facebook and google do ...

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Remember that free iOS update that included iAd?

Facebook and Google don't sell your information to someone else. They sell the fact that they have it, and use it to place ads more effectively. They are the go between for advertisers and their customers (or users). They hold enormous amounts of demographics and data.

You make an ad campaign, and pick the demographics who you want to target, and google and Facebook take care of the rest. Facebook ads can get scary accurate. Apple would be insane to run an ad network and not do something similar. There would be no reason to advertise with them if they were many times less effective than their competitors.

Popeye206 said:

The privacy concerns are overblown and paranoid.

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Don't worry, others will protect your rights for you.

Popeye206 said:

Good to see them fixed, but there are a heck of a lot more things to worry about than some generic and vague data on the iPhone location log.

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There is always something bigger to worry about. If people took that viewpoint, nothing small would ever get done.

macinnv said:

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.

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"This is a version of the very popular “The innocent have nothing to fear” argument, which is wheeled out whenever authorities wish to bring in new measures which increase surveillance or limit freedoms in the name of increasing security. For example, someone demands to search your luggage. You object to this intrusion on your privacy, but you are told that if you are innocent, you have no reason to object. After all, what are you trying to hide?

The argument is a particular species of false dichotomy. You are presented with a simple either/or choice. Either you’re guilty, and so should be exposed; or you are innocent, in which case nothing will be exposed, and so you have nothing to worry about. Either way, you have no legitimate reason to be concerned. Like all false dichotomies, the problem is that there is at least one more option than the two offered in the either/or choice. — Julian Baggini

BaldiMac said:

I don't understand this argument.

For one obvious example, if a battered woman's crazy ex-husband was able to find everywhere she's visited in the last year by stealing her iPhone, that's a problem. Extreme example, sure. But it's not always strangers that you have to worry about.

How about a simpler example. I take the iPhone given to me by my current employer and synced to my work computer to a job interview. Nothing wrong with that. But I don't want my current employer to know where I've been, but IT would have direct access to the location cache backed up on my computer.

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You are assuming that the iPhone tracks your exact location witch it does not. All the IT department would see is that you where in an area of the city where you where registered with several Cell towers. So unless you are trying to get a job at McDonalds or Starbucks, witch is the only business with several locations within a few miles of each other. Your employer would never now what building, what floor or how long you were there for.

Lol!

See image below.

What's not amusing? Google joins California Do-Not-Track opposition lobby

Fair is fair...

Steve Jobs asked to be left alone about his health issues. He wanted privacy. The industry, press and Apple fanatics alike respected that request (generally).

I want my privacy respected. I don't care what anyone else thinks about how important or identifying or specific or relevant or accurate or recent the data is. I don't care about how private internet browsing is, or other ways someone can track my movements with or without an iPhone. That's not the issue. The data is mine, and I don't want it collected let alone transmitted without my permission.

I have an iPhone 3G for which Apple did not provide an update. The logging still happens on my phone, every day, right now even. No way for me to shut it off. Steve gets to opt-out for privacy, we don't.

If anyone with an iPhone 4 thinks I am paranoid and would like to trade phones, I'd be more than happy.

turnit off

BaldiMac said:

If I sync with my work computer and the wifi network at our largest competitor shows up in my logs, my employer might have some questions.

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If you go to your largest competitor for an interview leave your phone in your desk, at home, turn it off, drain the battery so it shuts down before you leave work.

These are some of the ideas generated by a ten year old to solve the theoretical question of not being tracked by your cellphone. Seems some people want to find a bogeyman to the exclusion of all reason and commonsense.

damage00 said:

Steve Jobs asked to be left alone about his health issues. He wanted privacy. The industry, press and Apple fanatics alike respected that request (generally).

I want my privacy respected. I don't care what anyone else thinks about how important or identifying or specific or relevant or accurate or recent the data is. I don't care about how private internet browsing is, or other ways someone can track my movements with or without an iPhone. That's not the issue. The data is mine, and I don't want it collected let alone transmitted without my permission.

I have an iPhone 3G for which Apple did not provide an update. The logging still happens on my phone, every day, right now even. No way for me to shut it off. Steve gets to opt-out for privacy, we don't.

If anyone with an iPhone 4 thinks I am paranoid and would like to trade phones, I'd be more than happy.

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The data is never transmitted, and thus never leaves your possession. So how exactly is this an invasion of privacy if your the only one with access to it?

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPad; U; CPU OS 4_3_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8H7 Safari/6533.18.5)

damage00 said:

Steve Jobs asked to be left alone about his health issues. He wanted privacy. The industry, press and Apple fanatics alike respected that request (generally).

I want my privacy respected. I don't care what anyone else thinks about how important or identifying or specific or relevant or accurate or recent the data is. I don't care about how private internet browsing is, or other ways someone can track my movements with or without an iPhone. That's not the issue. The data is mine, and I don't want it collected let alone transmitted without my permission.

I have an iPhone 3G for which Apple did not provide an update. The logging still happens on my phone, every day, right now even. No way for me to shut it off. Steve gets to opt-out for privacy, we don't.

If anyone with an iPhone 4 thinks I am paranoid and would like to trade phones, I'd be more than happy.

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The Apple mouthpiece said, under oath, it was fixed with an update. If he did not give the total truth, and lied about older iPhones, then I think the correct action is to contact the Department of Justice and ask them to investigate this for possible action.  It all depends on how he said it thought, but if he said it was fixed....but neglected to say that tens of millions of devices were kept in a trackable state, then it's time to begin a full investigation. 

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPad; U; CPU OS 4_3_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8H7 Safari/6533.18.5)

lfc said:

damage00 said:

Steve Jobs asked to be left alone about his health issues. He wanted privacy. The industry, press and Apple fanatics alike respected that request (generally).

I want my privacy respected. I don't care what anyone else thinks about how important or identifying or specific or relevant or accurate or recent the data is. I don't care about how private internet browsing is, or other ways someone can track my movements with or without an iPhone. That's not the issue. The data is mine, and I don't want it collected let alone transmitted without my permission.

I have an iPhone 3G for which Apple did not provide an update. The logging still happens on my phone, every day, right now even. No way for me to shut it off. Steve gets to opt-out for privacy, we don't.

If anyone with an iPhone 4 thinks I am paranoid and would like to trade phones, I'd be more than happy.

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The data is never transmitted, and thus never leaves your possession. So how exactly is this an invasion of privacy if your the only one with access to it?

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You are incorrect, at least this does not match what The Wall Street Journel says on this issue

This is a quote from them...

Apple, meanwhile, says it "intermittently" collects location data, including GPS coordinates, of many iPhone users and nearby Wi-Fi networks and transmits that data to itself every 12 hours, according to a letter the company sent to U.S. Reps. Edward Markey (D-Mass.) and Joe Barton (R-Texas) last year.

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According to this WSJ, this was taken from a letter to Congress last year on this issue. Looks to me that this data is being transmitted to Apple. Also, this information was collected with Location Services off, another violation on the part of Apple.

diamond.g said:

It was an interesting hearing. I am curious to see the outcome of it. It kinda sounds like the gov wants Apple to adopt the Google Installation window to notify users of what data the app will want access to.

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And make Google screen their apps better. And make them warn customers each time an app is asking for the GPS.

macinnv said:

If you have nothing to hide, you have nothing to fear.

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This is a totally stupid attitude and completely misses the whole point. Everybody has lots of things to hide. If you have nothing to hide, please post your name, address, social security number, your mother's maiden name, and all your bank account details.

The real point is that there are plenty of idiots who get all excited and don't understand risks and don't understand _what_ they should fear. They get excited about data that isn't actually accessible to anyone by themselves, and that couldn't be used to hurt them except in their craziest phantasies if it was accessible, when there are plenty of real dangers.

There are ten million credit card numbers in the hands of some hacker. There is some vague location information that is in the hand of the people who rightfully own it.

kdarling said:

For extreme example, consider if such info had been used to help find bin Laden's courier's travels. It wouldn't be necessary to know all his exact coordinates. Just knowing the towns or heck, even the country in this case, is a huge benefit.

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You are confusing "privacy concerns" with "forensic evidence".

LegendKillerUK said:

It's only centred on devices with cellphone radios. So you are fine.

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Not true. I'm on an iPhone 3.g (not supported by iOS 4.3) and I still have a device that stores my whereabouts.
I consider Apple's info on this as untruthful through ill will

bikemonkey said:

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; U; CPU iPhone OS 4_3_2 like Mac OS X; en-us) AppleWebKit/533.17.9 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.0.2 Mobile/8H7 Safari/6533.18.5)



But it was stated by Apple (link not at hand I'm afraid) that it cached WiFi/cell towers up to 100 miles away. So, really, nothing substantial can be proven. Also, let's not forget that (AFAIK) it's only caching the location of the hotspots and not the triangulated data of your exact position.

That all said and done, if you're really bothered about this kind of stuff then you shouldn't be using your computer to surf the net...

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But iTunes, iphoto and imovie also dial home with locations, are they portable? hmmmm
Install the demo of little snitch on a desktop and have a look at locations dial out.

Your point is valid if you agree Apple refunds customers who where not told that their devices would collect locations illegally, where as Google and facebook fished information by offering a FREE service apple sold devices, i hope they pay 16k for every single device they located., thats over 35 billion dollars in fines, im sure a few million to hire a staff online to make them smell like roses is the next move Apple would have as liars.

And which hands does this information go to, if a criminal knows where you are in real time he can rob your house, assassin a judge, investigator, you name it, its not authorized by the district attorneys office, no warrants, this means its allowing crimes to be committed UN TRACED, only criminals think of tracing people, police, fbi and other LICENSED law enforcement respond to their JOB ONLY, its a job, we dont live in nazi germany where citizens are obligated to act in behalf of the law UN TRAINED and making judgements based on appearance or locations or what they eat or their faith or religion, you guys are trying to play this off like its a Hollywood film where you dont see the paper work, court hearing details, coffee and toilet breaks and films where cops are heros who acted with out a warrant for justice sake

komamjutt said:

i got itunes up and running now but i cant figure out what apple mobile device service is.

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get this app called little snitch on your DESKTOP (not a mobile device) , re start itunes, it will show you that LOCATIONS want to connect to Apple, faces and iphoto thmbnails, even of fotos emptied in iPhotos trash

BY THE WAY SKYPE IS PROBABLY LAUGHING, if you guys have several devices on the same network and access to see all devices connected, SKYPE re appears with its OWN local IP, even after you stopped using it

Full of Win said:

They are tracking our location - there is nothing paranoid about it.

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No, they may be 'collecting' our location on the devices (and whatever computer you sync it to), and yes, admittedly that information should have been encrypted. BUT they are not 'tracking' our location, in the sense that they know where we are from their offices every second of the day, which is how the media are portraying the situation, and how the general public are perceiving it.

JHankwitz said:

I must live a pretty dull life. I can't think of anyplace I've gone with my iPhone in the past that would warrent concern over someone else knowing where I've been. Cell phone towers have been tracking me for about 5 years now, and I haven't found the need to complain or make a big deal about it. Is everyone else out there involved in covert national security operations, murders, or what?

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It's their own little way of finding some semblance of self importance in their otherwise mundane lives. They fantasize that what they do on a day to day basis has any effect on the world. Personally, I know that my data is boring and uninteresting.

permol said:

Not true. I'm on an iPhone 3.g (not supported by iOS 4.3) and I still have a device that stores my whereabouts.
I consider Apple's info on this as untruthful through ill will

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If I remember right, the log file you're talking about was introduced with iOS 4.X. It does not affect you.

Again... people are taking this as a personal attack and a major breach of your security and personal information, yet this information is there with all cell phones by default. The location file is not transmitted to anyone. It's on your local devices.

This is silly.

Full of Win said:

...I learned along time ago to pray for the best but plan for the worst.

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A lesson, no doubt taught to you by Windows.

I am confused about googles involvement here... It pops up a warning when you turn on location services telling you "Allow Google's location service to collect anonymous location data. Collection will occur even when no applications are running." Isn't that enough of a disclaimer? Thats why i always leave it off... and just use gps. Any apps that use your location in android tell you so when you install it. Am I missing something here??

Popeye206 said:

If I remember right, the log file you're talking about was introduced with iOS 4.X. It does not affect you.

Again... people are taking this as a personal attack and a major breach of your security and personal information, yet this information is there with all cell phones by default. The location file is not transmitted to anyone. It's on your local devices.

This is silly.

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"If [you] remember right" - then why is there a file in my back-up? iOS 4.2
I suppose you're wrong

If nothing is transmitted, then why is the data accumulated and why have Apple-executives lied about it along the way?

aimbdd said:

I am confused about googles involvement here... It pops up a warning when you turn on location services telling you "Allow Google's location service to collect anonymous location data. Collection will occur even when no applications are running." Isn't that enough of a disclaimer? Thats why i always leave it off... and just use gps. Any apps that use your location in android tell you so when you install it. Am I missing something here??

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Does the same in iOS....

It's not about that.... it's about the data that is sent to Google and Apple in the background that's sends general information for mapping and traffic updates. Opting out on an app does not stop this data from being sent. You have to shut off all location services to not send this data. But, keep in mind, this data is not ID'd to your phone. They just know that a Android or iPhone is in a general area. Google actually was more precise by sending GPS data and they sent info evert 15 minuets or so. Apple only sent evert few hours.

Also, on the iPhone, a local file that is not shared was being kept that tracked towers so it could anticipate where towers are when you're out and about. But people are upset because this file existed and by some outlandish turn of events someone could get this info and use it to see where you've been.

That's what all this is about. Silly... and it's going to hurt us now that the government is involved and wants to regulate it.