Become a MacRumors Supporter for $50/year with no ads, ability to filter front page stories, and private forums.

andiwm2003

macrumors 601
Mar 29, 2004
4,382
454
Boston, MA
in the case of apps I can see the 30% justified because apple does the file hosting, distribution and updating process as well as some marketing through the app store.

however with subscriptions I don't think apple does this or at least it's not necessary and useful for WSJ and the consumer. In this case the 30% cut is simply a middleman fee that I don't want to pay directly or indirectly.
 

fifthworld

macrumors 6502
Oct 22, 2008
268
5
Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't most retailers charge both a shelf-space fee (cost of the store carrying it) and a per-sale fee (cost of processing the transaction)? It still seems like what Apple's doing is standard fare.

True, but retailers don't ask you to buy shelves, or retail space, just products. Is Apple giving away the iOS devices for free?
 

Erwin-Br

macrumors 6502a
Feb 6, 2008
603
62
The Netherlands
Translation: Even though Apple provides an excellent experience for our readers, it provides a lousy experience for the WSJ since we don't get access to our reader's personal data which we can then sell for lots of money.

Don't you think it's more likely that the information will be used to determine the direction of the bookstore? For instance, as a seller I would like to know which kinds of books sell best. Or how much a customer is willing to pay for a book. There are all kinds of metrics that a retailer needs to steer on when running a store. This is important data for the store itself, I'm sure it isn't going to sell this valuable information to a competitor.
 

Sharkus

macrumors member
Apr 1, 2005
87
10
Firstly, pop over to the Canadian App Store and read a certain review for the Kobo app (it might also be on the US App Store as well). It explains in a bit more depth exactly what is going on behind the scenes with the store removal, along with the removal of the ability to create a new account.

Secondly, Kindle has just updated their application to remove the store button.
 

kallisti

macrumors 68000
Apr 22, 2003
1,751
6,670
Yes, the really big question has already been asked here: what about Kindle?

A great many of us use the iPad mostly for reading books and magazines. We enjoy being able to choose between various bookstores - I've found books in the Amazon/Kindle store that were cheaper than Apple's - and vice versa.

If Amazon is forced to change their app to comply with Apple's policy, I can't help seeing this as a big old negative for Apple. Many of us will bite the bullet and simply buy a Kindle and be done with it.

Oh - and Kobo's move was a major bummer, too.

Why would you buy a Kindle rather than just go to Amazon's site in a browser, buy your book, and have it sent to your iPad?
 

cozmot

Guest
Mar 16, 2008
235
0
Washington, DC
Why would you buy a Kindle rather than just go to Amazon's site in a browser, buy your book, and have it sent to your iPad?

I buy my Kindle books on Amazon's web site and have them delivered to my iPad. Apple won't be getting any in-app purchases from me for newspapers and books until they stop this insane policy of shaving off 30% from already-thin margins.
 

RollTide1017

macrumors 6502
Sep 28, 2009
264
102
Montgomery, AL
I don't really have an issue with Apple taking a portion of the sales through the app store, I just think 30% is way too high. Should be something like 10% or even less IMO.
 

cozmot

Guest
Mar 16, 2008
235
0
Washington, DC
This whole thing is bad for customers. Because of that, I don't see this being good for Apple. I'm already displeased with Apple because of this.

Subscriptions are not the same as other items. Subscription pretty much always means a reduced rate for a long term agreement, paid in advance.

Therefore, the 30% cut that might be reasonable at per issue pricing, is not reasonable for a subscription. Apple needs to get something for providing the store, but 30% when it comes to subscriptions is too high - they should look at something closer to 15%.

I quit buying iBooks after this policy emerged. If I can't find it on Kindle or Google Books, and other ebook publishers, I just trot on over to Amazon and buy a used copy of the book I want on the cheap. My iBook shelf is looking mighty sparse nowadays.
 

nwcs

macrumors 68030
Sep 21, 2009
2,722
5,262
Tennessee
I don't see how this is bad for consumers. Don't get me wrong, I don't see it as good either. But it's just a very minor inconvenience. We're just starting into this realm of connected devices and appliances. In 10 years I'm sure the model will have evolved quite a bit.
 

voidptr

macrumors regular
Jan 11, 2007
127
0
in the case of apps I can see the 30% justified because apple does the file hosting, distribution and updating process as well as some marketing through the app store.

however with subscriptions I don't think apple does this or at least it's not necessary and useful for WSJ and the consumer. In this case the 30% cut is simply a middleman fee that I don't want to pay directly or indirectly.

The problem is, there's a easy way around paying Apple the initial distribution fee if they make the IAP cut less than the app purchase cut.

Option A: I sell an app for $10, Apple takes $3 for hosting the app and future updates, I get $7 that covers development and maintaining any other content it needs to download.

Option B: I put the app on the App store for free, and charge either a $10 subscription or in-app purchase to unlock it completely. The burden hasn't changed on either party for who distributes what, only when money changes hands.

If Apple took less of a cut for In App Purchasing than buying the initial app, there's a loophole where everyone would just give the app away for free, and use IAP to unlock it later. For a popular app like Kindle or NetFlix, the $99 developer fee probably doesn't cover the distribution costs alone.

The current compromise is somewhere in the middle.. Apple eats the cost of distributing these apps, but doesn't do so in a way that results in everyone giving away free apps to skirt the App store cut.

The better option might be to allow developers to opt in to a lower transaction % cut, but pay for the distribution costs. Instead of 30%, pay 4% on IAP + $0.20/GB or so whenever someone downloads your app or an update. However, that's no where near as simple as the current mechanism.
 

reden

macrumors 6502a
Aug 30, 2006
716
824
I actually hope Apple comes out last in the mobile arena at the end of the day, just like what happened with Mac OS. They think they can run the world, and have everyone feed off the palm of their hand, and smack them if they try to take too much. Tell me really, how is taking 30% revenue from in-app transactions justifying the costs involved for that one purchase a user is making through an app? Unbelievably greedy.
 
Last edited:

The Phazer

macrumors 68030
Oct 31, 2007
2,997
930
London, UK
The beginning of the end for the iOS ecosystem. Truly one of the most stupid things Apple has ever done. Very sad to see - but Apple have just decided that it's okay to create a terrible user experience that doesn't work, just for the sake of destroying competition to their own inferior minority product.

Phazer
 

Porchland

macrumors 65816
Apr 26, 2004
1,076
2
Georgia
I actually hope Apple comes out last in the mobile arena at the end of the day, just like what happened with Mac OS. They think they can run the world, and have everyone feed off the palm of their hand, and smack them if they try to take too much. Tell me really, how is taking 30% revenue from in-app transactions justify the costs involved for that one purchase a user is making through an app? Unbelievably greedy.

1. Apple supplies the platform and, therefore, sets the terms. Kindle gets enormous exposure from the iOS platform. If Amazon doesn't want to play the game and pay Apple 30% for in-app transactions but still wants to provide kindle customers with an alternate platform for viewing purchased material, that's a pretty good outcome for Apple and Amazon.

2. Something that does not get said enough in this debate: Amazon does not provide a mechanism for either buying or reading Apple's iBooks content on Kindle, but people call it greed when Apple continues allowing kindle customers to read their kindle books for free on iOS.

3. I wish Apple and Amazon would work something out for in-app purchases or retaining the link, but both companies have interests to protect.
 

Erwin-Br

macrumors 6502a
Feb 6, 2008
603
62
The Netherlands
I don't see how this is bad for consumers. Don't get me wrong, I don't see it as good either. But it's just a very minor inconvenience. We're just starting into this realm of connected devices and appliances. In 10 years I'm sure the model will have evolved quite a bit.

It is a minor inconvenience, true. The uproar is more about the principle, I think.

Apple prides itself as all being about "user experience". But when it comes to making money, their principles go right out of the window. Bottom line: Apple cares more about that 30% cut, than it cares about the user experience.
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
2. Something that does not get said enough in this debate: Amazon does not provide a mechanism for either buying or reading Apple's iBooks content on Kindle, but people call it greed when Apple continues allowing kindle customers to read their kindle books for free on iOS.

You're kidding, don't you?
 

reden

macrumors 6502a
Aug 30, 2006
716
824
1. Apple supplies the platform and, therefore, sets the terms. Kindle gets enormous exposure from the iOS platform. If Amazon doesn't want to play the game and pay Apple 30% for in-app transactions but still wants to provide kindle customers with an alternate platform for viewing purchased material, that's a pretty good outcome for Apple and Amazon.

2. Something that does not get said enough in this debate: Amazon does not provide a mechanism for either buying or reading Apple's iBooks content on Kindle, but people call it greed when Apple continues allowing kindle customers to read their kindle books for free on iOS.

3. I wish Apple and Amazon would work something out for in-app purchases or retaining the link, but both companies have interests to protect.

I'm not just talking about the relationship between Amazon and Apple here. This was a general comment I made on the overall situation with in-app transactions. Okay, fine, Apple provides the platform for more exposure, totally understand. Why is it 30%? Really, if I buy a stupid virtual hat for $1.99 in a iOS game for my cat, Apple gets 30% of that why? Just for exposure? No matter how you put it, the percentage has always been flat out greedy because without developers that "App Store" is NOTHING. They're basically laughing at the people that are making them rich, developers.

A good analogy here would be Movie Theaters. How do people perceive movie theaters in general? Greedy. However, it's not their fault. They have to raise prices in their concessions because of the studios. While the studios laugh their way to the bank, raising ticket prices, some theaters are left with not making any money, or making enough to stay afloat. The more expensive tickets get, the less chances people are willing to spend more money for popcorn etc.

Reality is, in the Movie industry, Theaters' success is dictated by the studios because you can't find another Transformers to play in your theater for a cheaper price unless China starts replicating movies too. In the app world, you can go develop for other platforms. That means developers will probably have to raise prices for in-app purchases, to offset the percentage Apple's eating, or just flat out abandon the platform.
 
Last edited:

Sharkus

macrumors member
Apr 1, 2005
87
10
The problem is, there's a easy way around paying Apple the initial distribution fee if they make the IAP cut less than the app purchase cut.

Option A: I sell an app for $10, Apple takes $3 for hosting the app and future updates, I get $7 that covers development and maintaining any other content it needs to download.

Option B: I put the app on the App store for free, and charge either a $10 subscription or in-app purchase to unlock it completely. The burden hasn't changed on either party for who distributes what, only when money changes hands.

If Apple took less of a cut for In App Purchasing than buying the initial app, there's a loophole where everyone would just give the app away for free, and use IAP to unlock it later. For a popular app like Kindle or NetFlix, the $99 developer fee probably doesn't cover the distribution costs alone.

The current compromise is somewhere in the middle.. Apple eats the cost of distributing these apps, but doesn't do so in a way that results in everyone giving away free apps to skirt the App store cut.

The better option might be to allow developers to opt in to a lower transaction % cut, but pay for the distribution costs. Instead of 30%, pay 4% on IAP + $0.20/GB or so whenever someone downloads your app or an update. However, that's no where near as simple as the current mechanism.

Part of the problem here would be charging users for an app that was previously free. Unless it's some super-duper Pro/HD version of the app with a heck of a lock more functionality. So you then force users to upgrade, or lose out on features.

People baulk at 99cent apps, so if you were to suddenly charge ten bucks for it they would be seriously annoyed. Plus you would get seriously crappy reviews for suddenly putting a price on a previously free app.

As for the second option, I'm not sure if IAP guidelines allow you to do this. I think subscriptions cannot be used to unlock an app, they have to be recurring and not one time, so what, a yearly fee? hmm, interesting, but as said, pretty sure you cannot use subs in this way.

Your suggestion about a lower fee instead of the 30% would be fantastic, but it's not going to happen. Apple knows full well what it is doing, it knows about the 70 / 30 split, it came up with Agency Pricing. It's plan is to try and kill off all ebook apps bar iBooks on iOS, and on that score it is doing a tremendous job, which is very unfortunate, especially if you happen to work for one of the competitors.

Oh, and in case the review I mentioned goes missing (seems it's not appeared on the US App Store yet, probably won't either), have a read of it here. It explains some of the behind the scenes things that app developers have had to go through to deal with the new guidelines.
 

NebulaClash

macrumors 68000
Feb 4, 2010
1,810
0
Don't you think it's more likely that the information will be used to determine the direction of the bookstore? For instance, as a seller I would like to know which kinds of books sell best. Or how much a customer is willing to pay for a book. There are all kinds of metrics that a retailer needs to steer on when running a store. This is important data for the store itself, I'm sure it isn't going to sell this valuable information to a competitor.

No. Those things you mention are valuable to have, but have little to do with this disagreement between content providers and Apple. If you want to follow Apple's terms, you can get that information just fine. What kinds of books sell best? Check your sales and you'll know. How much will a customer pay? Experiment and find out.

This issue is about the content providers wanting your personal information so they can aggregate it and sell it to advertisers and make even more money. Apple insists this be done as Opt In, the content providers insist it must be Opt Out since they know hardly anyone will take the trouble to do that.

Apple is sticking up for users, and content providers are quite typically pretending this is an issue about Apple.
 

Oletros

macrumors 603
Jul 27, 2009
6,002
60
Premià de Mar
No. Those things you mention are valuable to have, but have little to do with this disagreement between content providers and Apple. If you want to follow Apple's terms, you can get that information just fine. What kinds of books sell best? Check your sales and you'll know. How much will a customer pay? Experiment and find out.

This issue is about the content providers wanting your personal information so they can aggregate it and sell it to advertisers and make even more money. Apple insists this be done as Opt In, the content providers insist it must be Opt Out since they know hardly anyone will take the trouble to do that.

Apple is sticking up for users, and content providers are quite typically pretending this is an issue about Apple.

And how this applies to Amazon or B&N?
 
Register on MacRumors! This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.