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nwcs

macrumors 68030
Sep 21, 2009
2,722
5,262
Tennessee
The market rewards innovation. Apple has seen its sale go through the roof because of it. Patents exist and do protect truly innovative products, but most are highly derivative and makes patent portfolios an offensive weapon against another's products rather than a defensive weapon to protect one's products.

The market rewards innovation -- not the people who innovate. Think of it this way. Who makes more in a company: the person who invents the product or the person who sells it? It doesn't take long to find stories of someone who came up with something innovative without protecting it only to be out-maneuvered and out-spent by another company who essentially got the innovation for free.

What good is it for a company to innovate to have another company profit off of it? Good for the market, bad for the company.
 

FrozenTomato

macrumors regular
Jul 22, 2011
156
0
The problem is that so many of them are blatantly obvious to anyone in the field that it's counterproductive to allow them to be patented. Take the pinch to zoom. Touch screens had been using that maneuver a decade before apple used it on the iPhone. It was part of a standard set of widely understood gestures for existing touch screens at the time.


Doesn't matter. Apple owns the patent. Google/HTC/Motorola/Samsung should pay up.

The same way Apple paid Nokia.
 

Mattie Num Nums

macrumors 68030
Mar 5, 2009
2,834
0
USA
So its not about "Thinking Different" now, its about "Outbidding". That goes for Google, Apple, all of them. Its no longer about developing technology, its now all about buying patents.
 

cmaier

Suspended
Jul 25, 2007
25,405
33,471
California
You can use other people's patents/inventions. You just have to PAY for them.

Only if the other people let you - if you have a patent, there's no requirement that you allow anyone to use it, even if they pay you (unless you have some other contractual obligation, such as belonging to a relevant standards body).

Who thinks that the software patent system should be rehauled? The reason there are so many lawsuits in USA is because of the broken system...:rolleyes:

What does this have to do with software patents?
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
HTC's willingness to negotiate shows just how weak their position is. Add to that the legal issues with Android, and you've got an entire ecosystem - OS, vendors, everything - built out of a house of cards.

Wasn't almighty Google supposed to step in and protect them? What happened to Schmidt's brave words?

Further, the S3 patents are small potatoes compared to why Apple is going after these copiers for. You can't equate S3 patents purchased by HTC to the two Apple patents that HTC is infringing on. All patents are not the same. It isn't trade 2 for 2. The question is *what* is patented. The ones Apple has are much harder to work around than HTC's purchased patents for compression.

More generally, the difference between Apple and almost everyone else is pretty simple: Everyone else uses patents to "negotiate" deals and get licensing royalties. Apple uses its patents to prevent the competition from copying Apple's ideas and inventions, so that Apple’s products can remain unique.

If it’s not an iPhone, it’s not an iPhone.

Will there be any negotiation? There shouldn't be. Does Apple want HTC offering copycat products?
 

alent1234

macrumors 603
Jun 19, 2009
5,688
170
The problem is that so many of them are blatantly obvious to anyone in the field that it's counterproductive to allow them to be patented. Take the pinch to zoom. Touch screens had been using that maneuver a decade before apple used it on the iPhone. It was part of a standard set of widely understood gestures for existing touch screens at the time.



The market rewards innovation. Apple has seen its sale go through the roof because of it. Patents exist and do protect truly innovative products, but most are highly derivative and makes patent portfolios an offensive weapon against another's products rather than a defensive weapon to protect one's products.

then it should be easy to get a dismissal of any lawsuit by showing prior art

of course there is this pesky algorithm that apple uses that makes the iphone pinch and zoom faster than the android one and that is where the patent is
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,761
10,890
The problem is that so many of them are blatantly obvious to anyone in the field that it's counterproductive to allow them to be patented. Take the pinch to zoom. Touch screens had been using that maneuver a decade before apple used it on the iPhone. It was part of a standard set of widely understood gestures for existing touch screens at the time.

And that would be why Apple does not have a patent on pinch to zoom. They just have patents related to it.
 

goosnarrggh

macrumors 68000
May 16, 2006
1,602
20
And that would be why Apple does not have a patent on pinch to zoom. They just have patents related to it.

Exactly. Their patent has to do with the data processing that goes on behind the scenes to identify the fact that two distinct points of contact are present on the screen, as opposed to only one point of contact, or three or more points of contact.

And then it goes on to describe the data processing required to identify the fact that these two points of contact are moving.

Next, it describes the data processing required to compute the trajectories, velocity, and acceleration of each point of contact, as well as the relative angles of these two trajectories with respect to each other.

Then it describes the computational process that uses all of this data to distinguish the "pinch" gesture from any other kind of two-fingered gesture.

Honestly, the fact that the UI happens to decide that a "zoom out" operation is the appropriate response to a "pinch" gesture, is rather inconsequential compared to the specific mechanism that was employed to discover the fact that a "pinch" was being applied in the first place.

If tablets had been using that exact same set of computational processes for decades to identify the fact that a "pinch" was being applied, then frankly, Apple's patent ought to be meaningless.

On the other hand, if it can be shown that those tablets from decades ago were using even a slightly different computational process to identify the fact that a "pinch" was being applied, then they are not relevant to a criticism of the patentability of Apple's implementation.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,761
10,890
Exactly. Their patent has to do with the data processing that goes on behind the scenes to identify the fact that two distinct points of contact are present on the screen, as opposed to only one point of contact, or three or more points of contact.

And then it goes on to describe the data processing required to identify the fact that these two points of contact are moving.

Next, it describes the data processing required to compute the trajectories, velocity, and acceleration of each point of contact, as well as the relative angles of these two trajectories with respect to each other.

Then it describes the computational process that uses all of this data to distinguish the "pinch" gesture from any other kind of two-fingered gesture.

Honestly, the fact that the UI happens to decide that a "zoom out" operation is the appropriate response to a "pinch" gesture, is rather inconsequential compared to the specific mechanism that was employed to discover the fact that a "pinch" was being applied in the first place.

If tablets had been using that exact same set of computational processes for decades to identify the fact that a "pinch" was being applied, then frankly, Apple's patent ought to be meaningless.

On the other hand, if it can be shown that those tablets from decades ago were using even a slightly different computational process to identify the fact that a "pinch" was being applied, then they are not relevant to a criticism of the patentability of Apple's implementation.

I don't think Apple has a patent on that either. Link?

As far as I can tell, the only related Apple patent is on performing additional gestures to manipulate an object within a certain amount of time after performing a pinch to zoom on that object.
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
The market rewards innovation -- not the people who innovate. Think of it this way. Who makes more in a company: the person who invents the product or the person who sells it? It doesn't take long to find stories of someone who came up with something innovative without protecting it only to be out-maneuvered and out-spent by another company who essentially got the innovation for free.

What good is it for a company to innovate to have another company profit off of it? Good for the market, bad for the company.

While that may be true in some industries, the handset industry is not one of them. We are talking about very large companies with millions, if not billions, of dollars at their disposal. There is no mom and pop outfit with a genius invention that is being usurped by a large, faceless corporation. In this case, the person who 'invents' it is the one who sells it first, and then by months only usually.

Doesn't matter. Apple owns the patent. Google/HTC/Motorola/Samsung should pay up.

The same way Apple paid Nokia.

Of course. We are having a philosophical argument, not a procedural one. Your statement isn't relevant.

then it should be easy to get a dismissal of any lawsuit by showing prior art

of course there is this pesky algorithm that apple uses that makes the iphone pinch and zoom faster than the android one and that is where the patent is

As kdarling pointed out, doesn't exist.

The previous patent highlighted here on macrumors was in reference to scrolling in a pane of text inside a larger content window in a touch-based interface. Much more narrow than the encompassing idea you suggest. A more relevant example is how Lodsys is attacking everyone over in-app purchase use rights because Apple holds the rights rather than the individual developers.
 

840quadra

Moderator
Staff member
Feb 1, 2005
9,256
5,968
Twin Cities Minnesota
It comes to the point when you wonder if the combined total in possible lawsuits or licensing, will outweigh the billions spent buying these derelict companies just for their patents.
 

mabaker

macrumors 65816
Jan 19, 2008
1,209
566
I’m sick of Google paying its way to compete with Apple. As if Schmidt spying in 2006 was not enough.
 

goosnarrggh

macrumors 68000
May 16, 2006
1,602
20
I don't think Apple has a patent on that either. Link?

As far as I can tell, the only related Apple patent is on performing additional gestures to manipulate an object within a certain amount of time after performing a pinch to zoom on that object.

Indeed, I've just re-read the patent that was actually granted:
http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-...7,812,826.PN.&OS=PN/7,812,826&RS=PN/7,812,826

It has been over a year since I last read it, and the details had become rather fuzzy. You're absolutely right, the patent I was thinking about has everything to do with seamlessly allowing subsequent gestures to be performed on an object within a certain period of time after previous gestures had been performed and broken.

The document I was actually thinking about, with a much broader scope, has not been granted. It is still in the application stage:
http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph...21".PGNR.&OS=DN/20060026521&RS=DN/20060026521

If this were to be approved, it would have the potential to have an impact on a much larger multitude of multitouch systems.
 

xwk88

macrumors regular
May 3, 2005
100
1
The problem is that so many of them are blatantly obvious to anyone in the field that it's counterproductive to allow them to be patented. Take the pinch to zoom. Touch screens had been using that maneuver a decade before apple used it on the iPhone. It was part of a standard set of widely understood gestures for existing touch screens at the time.



The market rewards innovation. Apple has seen its sale go through the roof because of it. Patents exist and do protect truly innovative products, but most are highly derivative and makes patent portfolios an offensive weapon against another's products rather than a defensive weapon to protect one's products.


Im not an expert on patents by that Imean I know close to nothing..... but Ive heard that "previous art" if this has been around--- which Ive never seen it but Ive never seen a lot of things--- wouldnt that invalidate apples claim to this tech??? just wondering......
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
Im not an expert on patents by that Imean I know close to nothing..... but Ive heard that "previous art" if this has been around--- which Ive never seen it but Ive never seen a lot of things--- wouldnt that invalidate apples claim to this tech??? just wondering......

That works for the broader techs like pinch to zoom, but a lot of times there are very minor patents that cover a very specific thing that one manufacturer has locked down. These devices are incredibly complex and have rapid turn-around time and development of features, so that's why it has gotten so litigious.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,761
10,890
Im not an expert on patents by that Imean I know close to nothing..... but Ive heard that "previous art" if this has been around--- which Ive never seen it but Ive never seen a lot of things--- wouldnt that invalidate apples claim to this tech??? just wondering......

Prior art would invalidate a patent. But the poster that you quoted provided an incorrect description of Apple's patent claims. Apple has not patented pinch to zoom.
 
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