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Superken7

macrumors member
Feb 13, 2011
55
0
I want to complain about all the conspiracies that have caused Gas prices to go up, causing vegetables to become very expensive too.

What's the problem with Apple wanting a 30% Cut? They are providing the mechanism to sell the product, with tons of expenses: NOC, Bandwidth, Store Front, Shopping Cart, Web presence, advertising, large customer base, etc.

Someone try to do all these alone to sell an eBook or App, and profit will be close to nothing.

This is getting a bit offtopic, but the problem isn't Apple wanting a 30% cut. It's that Apple _forces_ people to use their iBook Store, not letting any way around it, thus making their 30% mandatory, even if the publisher does not wish to use the iBook Store.

Remember that mess a few months ago with the new clauses that don't allow in-app purchases that don't go through the App Store? Yep, that's it. Several publishers effectively had to close down because they could not compete if they had to increase their prices by 30%.
See here for more info: http://goo.gl/ba1cq
 

dsut4392

macrumors member
Jun 29, 2006
89
56
The only thing that surprises me in discussions of price fixing is that no one mentions how there's almost zero variance in Apple product prices no matter where you shop.

Must be magic....

It's hardly "magic", more like "market economics" and "retail 101". Even in China and Hong Kong, the home of ripoffs, forgeries and black market batches off the production line, I've seen queues of people lining up for city blocks waiting to pay full price for iPads. With demand like this, only an idiot would charge less than full price...

For Apple Inc. company owned stores, they can set whatever price they like, including the same price across all stores. For third party resellers, whether "authorized reseller" or not, multiple factors drive the pricing:
1) They can charge the same price as Apple, because people are prepared to pay it
2) They're not inclined to discount to get market share from competitors because a) see 1 above b) retail margins on many products are actually pretty slim c) their (few) competitors are affected by the same market factors.
3) Why annoy your supplier by driving down perceived market value of their product?
4) Why crap in your own nest by driving down the perceived market value of the products you're selling?

All that said, there are independent authorized resellers who do undercut Apple stores and offer discounts on some Apple items, the amount of the discount varying based on traditional retail factors (e.g. varying from $5 off current gen. MB Air, to free time capsule (previous model) when you sign up for Apple care, to 20% discounts on previous gen. iMacs and MB Airs etc).
 

*LTD*

macrumors G4
Feb 5, 2009
10,703
1
Canada
We've been seeing more and more of this lately from Apple's competitors (which apparently includes their shills as well):
 
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PinkyMacGodess

Suspended
Mar 7, 2007
10,271
6,226
Midwest America.
It is pretty harsh to pay sticker price, or slightly under for a 'book' that comes from a single file on a server (servers) somewhere. There is nothing else involved in the process. The burp of data only take seconds. Paying the overhead and what not that you (hopefully) pay for a real paper book for something that has no intrinsic cost to deliver except for the small amount of power to keep things running, and the cost is split on both ends!

It's like paying 'retail' for Microsoft Open License software that has no manuals and no paper or other involvement at all...

The feeling of getting ripped of is there for sure...

How many e-published books do you have to sell for $24.99 before you have made a tonne of money...
 

appleguy123

macrumors 604
Apr 1, 2009
6,863
2,541
15 minutes in the future
Don't forget:
All the costs associated with printing (if book is available in both formats)
re-layout of design.
New artwork
Cover design
Increased network utilization

But that is not the point. Again, people look at the raw cost of production and make the simple minded assumption is that is what drives value. That is anything but true. Value is based on the actual words in the book. The ordering and combination of the words actually builds and creates value. You then set a price for that value. The cost of re-production (in any format) is really inconsequential.
All of the physical things add value to the reading experience. A nice hard cover, the ability to lend it indefinitely to your friends, quality paper; they all add to the experience and add value.

It's like those dented box models at retail stores. Ebooks should be cheaper in the same way.
 

wizard

macrumors 68040
May 29, 2003
3,854
571
You have a silly perspective.

Good! I hope they win.
A win here would really be of benefit to nobody.
It's ridiculous that ebooks cost the same or MORE than physical books.
I don't disagree with this on some levels. On the other hand people often trot out examples that have nothing to do with reality. Books that sit on the shelf for a long time tend to get cheaper as sales drop. You can see this in any book story you walk into as you pass the discount tables. At some point publishers have to dump that which they have invested in.
Fact is this is collusion on pricing, and publishers are trying to protect the layers of middle men no longer needed.
Not at all. The publishers are trying to cover their own back sides while the market transitions to greater use of electronic distribution.
Many many authors who turned to ebooks self published report they make the same money selling ebooks at $2/book as they did using publishers of physical books.
Exactly which indicates one thing, there is a free market still. The reality is self publishing or even small time publishing can now be extremely competitive even in the shadows of the big boys.
ebooks are NOT worth $10 or higher. More like half that (at MOST). Until then, everyone should pirate the ebooks.
Well frankly screw you! You may not believe this but there is a considerable amount of effort that goes into publishing a book and frankly many jobs depend upon the industry. You are suggesting a position that not many can support as not only is it illegal, it is unethical and immoral.

The fact is the free market is at work as we speak. Self publishing is no longer a long shot nor does it require a personal investment that many of us don't have. Nor is it an impossibility for a small publisher to start up and actually compete with the capital of a large publisher.

In the end what I see is opportunity while people like you see conspiracy or collusion.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
All of the physical things add value to the reading experience. A nice hard cover, the ability to lend it indefinitely to your friends, quality paper; they all add to the experience and add value.

It's like those dented box models at retail stores. Ebooks should be cheaper in the same way.

Distribution and printing are pennies in comparison to the costs of editing, marketing, layout and design, legal, etc - all of which take place no matter WHAT form the book is in.
 

spazzcat

macrumors 68040
Jun 29, 2007
3,663
4,759
Amazon was selling books below their cost. I don't see how this lawsuit will stand up???
 

Zimmy68

macrumors 68000
Jul 23, 2008
1,991
1,611
I'm all for this lawsuit.

There is no way I was going to pay $12.99 - $14.99 for a new e-book when you can get the dead tree version cheaper.

As a result I passed on the following books...

Life - Keith Richards
2% Wall Street Tampa Bay Rays book
ESPN (latest book)

I didn't wait for a price reduction, I got them elsewhere.

I would have paid the normal $9.99 price in a hot second if offered.

Laugh it up Apple fanboys, but it would be like Google getting into music industry, signing agreements with the labels and Apple being forced to charge $4 for a single instead of 99 cents.
 

aottke

macrumors newbie
May 18, 2010
20
27
This was truly one of the most evil things Apple did, not too long after Steve Jobs publicly proclaimed that "Nobody reads books anymore."

Until he realized that he can ride to higher profits on the burgeoning e-book sales, that is.

I hope the suit wins. It will be better for all consumers.


I'm sorry. You're absolutely wrong. It's a ridiculous suit. Look at who the suit is against. Publishers are struggling these days -- no question. No one reads books anymore -- that's generalized, but true (and Jobs meant physical books, by the way...). Everyone's online or on an iPad or Kindle or whatever they have. They read snippets, not novels, too. That's another issue.

But you'd rather companies like Amazon depreciate the value of books (both electronic and physical copies), so that consumers expect prices to be low. Then publishers will have issues selling books at any profit whatsoever and they'll start going under. That's a great way to DECREASE competition. Amazon-like companies are complaining because Apple and a few publishers found a way to change the business, increase sales, and STAY in business. That's good for us. We want more publishers (we being the consumers).

Media is changing -- okay, media is staying the same, but the way we buy and sell and license and transfer media is changing. And companies like Apple are at the forefront of that change. And they haven't been doing a bad job at all. They're profiting -- and it's hard to find anyone that works with them complaining about their relationship. Why? Apple makes everyone money. And in the long run, they'll save you yours, too.

You can't have a judge somewhere pound his gavel, calling this anti-competitive behavior and essentially saying companies can't sell books at the prices they want to. It's their book. Your choice is the choice to buy. As soon as a judge starts limiting the price of books (which is essentially what'll happen if this thing wins), we're not capitalist any more (well, I'm not sure we have been for the last few years, anyway). You'd let our ideals go to save a few bucks on a book? You can't expect anything to be free. Earn it. And quit complaining. This better be dismissed.

People need to quit complaining about how expensive ebooks are. You were never paying for the physical pages. Publishing a physical book costs something, sure. But do you buy a book so you can carry home a heavy pile of paper, or for the media within it that some author worked his a$$ off to write. Be fair to the authors, too, here. Media comes at a cost -- to the creator and consumer -- especially when it's good. Don't expect it to be handed out. That's what today's government is there for...
 
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wizard

macrumors 68040
May 29, 2003
3,854
571
This is plain garbage.

I'm in no way forced to use the iBook Store. This is the most twisted statement in this whole thread. NO ONE is forced to use iBook Store.

This is getting a bit offtopic, but the problem isn't Apple wanting a 30% cut. It's that Apple _forces_ people to use their iBook Store, not letting any way around it, thus making their 30% mandatory, even if the publisher does not wish to use the iBook Store.

Remember that mess a few months ago with the new clauses that don't allow in-app purchases that don't go through the App Store? Yep, that's it. Several publishers effectively had to close down because they could not compete if they had to increase their prices by 30%.
See here for more info: http://goo.gl/ba1cq

This is also garbage. There is nothing to stop them from adjusting their price to maintain profitability. Even then they could simply sell outside the Apple infrastructure and let people load the books into iTunes, or whatever E-Book rear they prefer themselves. It is exceedingly easy to do you know.
 

gwangung

macrumors 65816
Apr 9, 2003
1,113
91
And they should be. There is no where NEAR the same overhead needed for an ebook as is needed to produce and distribute a physical book.
:apple:

I think you are QUITE mistaken.

Bulk of costs for a book are not in production or distribution; it's on the editorial side.

Ignorance is not bliss.
 

DisMyMac

macrumors 65816
Sep 30, 2009
1,087
11
Random House was concerned the agency model would lead to a price war between the publishing houses.

A "price war" is competition. They are practically pleading guilty if that's their defense.
 

Kwill

macrumors 68000
Mar 10, 2003
1,595
1
All this double talk is giving me a headache. If the existing model was indeed outdated and ineffective then it would make sense to investigate and develop (R&D) new profitable technologies. Why is someone filing a class-action law suit because companies want to make profits?

This lawsuit sound like it's the product of a bratty child who wants everyone to give him what he wants for free. When one reaches adulthood, the realization of payment for services is generally appreciated.

Publishers quickly realized that if market forces were allowed to prevail too quickly, these efficiency enhancing characteristics would rapidly lead to lower consumer prices...

Publishers were concerned that Amazon's aggressive $9.99/book pricing strategy -- where the bookseller sold books for a loss...

This lawsuit alleges that as a "direct result of this anticompetitive conduct as intended by the conspiracy, the price of eBooks has soared" ...
 

Benjamins

macrumors 6502a
Jul 15, 2010
668
137
As far as Amazon goes, it has fairly little to do with Apple.

Publishers only used Apple as leverage to put pressure on Amazon.

Apple basically said, you guys set the price, and I get 30% cut. Apple is under no obligation to do whatever Amazon did.
 

wizard

macrumors 68040
May 29, 2003
3,854
571
Bratty child is a good analogy.

The one thing that bothers me here is that people act like there is no competition. In fact there is plenty of competition in both the electronic and paper form. Even on the iPad it is possible to read documents in iBooks sourced from outside the Apple infrastructure.

As to Apple I'm not convinced that the agency model was even their idea. Honestly it looks like it was forced upon them. If that keeps the publishing companies going I don't really see a problem. Frankly it is very easy these days to compete with such companies so frankly I don't expect the high prices to be around for long.


All this double talk is giving me a headache. If the existing model was indeed outdated and ineffective then it would make sense to investigate and develop (R&D) new profitable technologies. Why is someone filing a class-action law suit because companies want to make profits?

This lawsuit sound like it's the product of a bratty child who wants everyone to give him what he wants for free. When one reaches adulthood, the realization of payment for services is generally appreciated.
 

aristotle

macrumors 68000
Mar 13, 2007
1,768
5
Canada
Maybe some lawyer could explain this to us. How can Apple be accused of price fixing if they are using the agency model? Under the agency model, the publisher rather than the seller dictates the price of the book (ie not Apple) whereas under the old wholesale model, not only did the seller (Amazon) dictate the price (price fix) but they also could change the price if it was not selling well causing the publisher to possibly incur a loss.
 

HiRez

macrumors 603
Jan 6, 2004
6,250
2,576
Western US
IANAL, but isn't the fact that Apple still has a minority share in the eBook market (IOW, they do not have a monopoly position) make this a difficult suit to sell?
 

acorder

macrumors newbie
Sep 2, 2009
11
0
Distribution and printing are pennies in comparison to the costs of editing, marketing, layout and design, legal, etc - all of which take place no matter WHAT form the book is in.

Thank you for saying that. It drives me bananas when people whine that "there's no cost to ebooks!" It's completely idiotic. Every single thing that happens to a print book has to happen with an ebook (sometimes all over again) except for printing and shipping/warehousing.

It costs around a dollar to print a book when you do even a modest print run. So, couple that with the cost of shipping (if/when the book is sent to a bookstore or warehouse) and the nominal cost of storage over the shelf life of a book, and you're still significantly south of $2. So, you want to know what the price difference should be between print and ebook? Rationally, about $2. But then you can say that the experience is lesser (or greater), etc. So, really, for an intangible thing that gives you less physically, I'd say a discount of around $4-5 is appropriate. So, for example, a typical trade paperback should cost around $10, which is, shockingly, not an uncommon price in ebook stores.

Seriously, people. Ebooks don't just fall out of the sky completely formed and with a support structure and sales system in place. In fact, some of the understood costs of publishing actually need to be done all over again to create an ebook. Covers are often different (or need modifications), layout is completely different (and optimizing for different formats, too!), proofing usually should be done again, advertising copy needs to be tweaked, etc.
 

EricNau

Moderator emeritus
Apr 27, 2005
10,728
281
San Francisco, CA
Maybe some lawyer could explain this to us. How can Apple be accused of price fixing if they are using the agency model? Under the agency model, the publisher rather than the seller dictates the price of the book (ie not Apple) whereas under the old wholesale model, not only did the seller (Amazon) dictate the price (price fix) but they also could change the price if it was not selling well causing the publisher to possibly incur a loss.
To qualify for the iBookStore, Apple insisted that the publishers agree to the agency model for all distributers. It wasn't enough that the publisher agree to use the agency model with Apple, they had to also agree to use the agency model with Amazon, and at the same price.

Apple is dictating the price at which the publishers sell their ebooks in other stores, like Amazon. They can't do that.

If Amazon wants to sell their ebooks at no profit, it's not Apple's business to interfere unless Amazon's sole intention is to inhibit competition. That's clearly not the case, however, because it's well established that Amazon is willing to sacrifice their ebook profits to increase Kindle sales (a legitimate business strategy), and also utilized this pricing model long before Apple sold ebooks.
 

001

macrumors newbie
Jan 31, 2009
17
0
Writer, and techie, Charles Stross wrote a 9 part series on Common Misconceptions About Publisihng. And the last installment is on eBooks.

In short eBooks aren't cheaper to produce, everything you mention on your list below is still involved, except for paper and ink which are nominal expenses.

That being said I do believe eBooks are overpriced.

Costs in physical book printing(there may be more, I'm not in this industry):
-cover design
-marketing
-paper
-ink
-machinery for printing
-storage
-distribution centers
-shipping
-book store markup
-author royalties

Cost for digital books:
-Apple's 30% cut.
-Author royalties

Why aren't these savings being passed on to the consumer when the consumer has bought the device and saved the publisher all this money? I will not ever pay $14.99 for an ebook. That's what I give audible for an audiobook!
 

japanime

macrumors 68030
Feb 27, 2006
2,916
4,844
Japan
I'm a book publisher, having been in this business for 15 years (and for 25 years in mass communications).

The book publishing business is indeed struggling. But Apple's iBookstore has been a bright spot (at least for us). The Kindle Store, not as much.

Most consumers are probably unaware that Amazon charges publishers a per-megabyte fee for the delivery of ebooks. That fee is deducted from the 70 percent Amazon pays publishers for the sale of their ebooks. My company publishes image-heavy educational comics that often weigh in at 30 or more megabytes, and therefore the delivery fees Amazon charges us approach around $2 per book.

With Apple, there is none of this "delivery fee" nonsense. They pay 70 percent of the sale, no deductions whatsoever. That allows us to offer our books on the iBookstore for half off the cover price of the physical edition. The result: Our customers save money, we get a fair percentage of the sale, and our authors and artists get a larger royalty payment.

Apple iBookstore FTW
 
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