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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:09 AM   #1
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Samsung Lawyers Also Struggle to Tell iPad and Galaxy Tab Apart




Developments continue in the wide-ranging patent dispute between Apple and Samsung, with judges in both the United States and the Netherlands making statements in favor of Apple although questions still remain.




Reuters reports that U.S. District Court Judge Lucy Koh yesterday ruled that Samsung's Galaxy Tab devices do infringe upon Apple's iPad patents, but noted that Apple must still show that its patents are valid in order for any action to be taken against Samsung. Koh repeatedly cited the distinct similarities between the iPad and the Galaxy Tab, even challenging Samsung's lawyers to differentiate between the two products.
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Koh frequently remarked on the similarity between each company's tablets. At one point during the hearing, she held one black glass tablet in each hand above her head, and asked Sullivan if she could identify which company produced which.

"Not at this distance your honor," said Sullivan, who stood at a podium roughly ten feet away.

"Can any of Samsung's lawyers tell me which one is Samsung and which one is Apple?" Koh asked. A moment later, one of the lawyers supplied the right answer.
Meanwhile, Reuters also reports that a Dutch judge has denied Samsung's request for an injunction barring sales of Apple's iOS devices utilizing 3G technology. Counterclaims by Apple were also denied, with each party ordered to pay the other's court costs.

According to NU.nl, the judge indicated that the 3G patents cited by Samsung cover essential technologies that must be licensed under FRAND (fair, reasonable, and non-discriminatory) terms, but the terms Samsung had reportedly proposed to Apple were seen as high enough that they were not compliant with FRAND requirements.

Article Link: Samsung Lawyers Also Struggle to Tell iPad and Galaxy Tab Apart
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:15 AM   #2
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:17 AM   #3
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To be fair I doubt Samsungs lawyers give a toss about the tablets. They are just there to win and get paid.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:22 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by MonkeySee.... View Post
To be fair I doubt Samsungs lawyers give a toss about the tablets. They are just there to win and paid.
The point here is that the average user cannot tell the difference, therefor copying is clearly evident - which is the point of the lawsuit to begin with....
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:28 AM   #5
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The more Samsung's legal moves are reported, the more they seem like clowns with a legal team made up of dancing bears.

Correction as per the response to my post:

It all starts with management. The lawyers simply do their bidding, which is in general true of retained lawyers.

Last edited by *LTD*; Oct 14, 2011 at 10:26 AM.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:31 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by thewitt View Post
The point here is that the average user cannot tell the difference, therefor copying is clearly evident - which is the point of the lawsuit to begin with....
I'm not agreeing with either side (as I haven't read enough about the patents in question), but if someone was to pick up two similarly sized black HP/Compaq/Dell laptops or black Sony/Samsung/Toshiba TVs, I wouldn't be able to tell them apart from 10 feet.

Not sure why tablets should be the unique flower here, but I'd be happy to be corrected by someone with more knowledge of the lawsuit(s).
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:32 AM   #7
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so basically courts across the globe are saying:
1. samsung is ripping off apple
2. samsung is trying to bully apple with their 3G patents

and yet its the apple that gets the most flak
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:39 AM   #8
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At Ten Feet Away

And held above head height, I doubt most people would be able to distinguish between the two devices. Hardly a scientific or legally valid test.

I have placed both devices together, handled both, and the difference is more than evident. The Galaxy has a rather cheap plastic feel to it, and lacks the substantive quality feel of the iPad.

On a side note, a friend of mine bought one and popped over to show me his new purchase. We compared the two as objectively as possible and both came to the conclusion that the Tab was an attempt at copying the iPad. It doesn't really come close though, but from a legal standpoint I think Apple have a case here. We shall see as the lawyers get richer.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:41 AM   #9
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Originally Posted by *LTD* View Post
The more Samsung's legal moves are reported, the more they seem like clowns with a legal team made up of dancing bears.
It's not really their legal team that is made of clowns. I've no doubt that it's made up of excellent lawyers. However, I suspect executive management has decided to force them to try and argue a case which has never had any chance of winning, all so that they can prove they didn't copy.

I'd hate to be a Samsung lawyer right now. They're literally working with nothing (apart from that other patent which they're sure Apple has violated, but that's another case).

I think Samsung could have avoided this by paying a fair share to Apple right from the start. They've clearly copied many aspects of the iPad. Instead, they chose the long and potentially more expensive route of legal battles.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:57 AM   #10
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 09:57 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by Macman45 View Post
And held above head height, I doubt most people would be able to distinguish between the two devices. Hardly a scientific or legally valid test.

I have placed both devices together, handled both, and the difference is more than evident. The Galaxy has a rather cheap plastic feel to it, and lacks the substantive quality feel of the iPad.

On a side note, a friend of mine bought one and popped over to show me his new purchase. We compared the two as objectively as possible and both came to the conclusion that the Tab was an attempt at copying the iPad. It doesn't really come close though, but from a legal standpoint I think Apple have a case here. We shall see as the lawyers get richer.
They have a different screen aspect ratio. They have a different look when you turn both on. The Tab doesn't have a button where the iPad does. You use the Tab in Landscape Mode while you use the iPad in Portrait. How can one not tell the difference?

Tell me how Samsung Copied Apple rather than "it has a screen on it with a black border" Because Samsung did it way before iPad came out.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/09/s...-movies-music/
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:00 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by MonkeySee.... View Post
To be fair I doubt Samsungs lawyers give a toss about the tablets. They are just there to win and get paid.
This case is about whether an ordinary consumer could be confused by similarities between an iPad and a Samsung tablet. A well-prepared Samsung lawyer should be able to keep them apart from two hundred yards away, blindfolded, or he isn't doing his job and should be fired on the spot.


Quote:
Originally Posted by FNi View Post
I'm not agreeing with either side (as I haven't read enough about the patents in question), but if someone was to pick up two similarly sized black HP/Compaq/Dell laptops or black Sony/Samsung/Toshiba TVs, I wouldn't be able to tell them apart from 10 feet.
Owning a Samsung TV, I can say that it looks definitely different from a Sony TV (haven't ever looked at Toshiba closely). Different enough that a Samsung lawyer should recognise it from quite a distance.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman45 View Post
And held above head height, I doubt most people would be able to distinguish between the two devices.
Exactly Apple's point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Macman45 View Post
Hardly a scientific or legally valid test.
It's not whether you can distinguish between them. If a friend visits you with an iPad shortly before your birthday, and you tell your mother that you would like an iPad just like that for your birthday, what are the chances that she would buy the wrong one for you? Or if your mother watched you using your iPad and tried it, and she goes to a store to buy one for herself? If she goes to a Sony store, and the Sony salespeople convince her that the Sony tablet, which looks very much different to her, will serve her just as well or better than an iPad, and she buys it, that's proper competition. But if she buys a Samsung tablet _thinking_ that she is getting an iPad, that is a rip-off.

Last edited by gnasher729; Oct 14, 2011 at 10:10 AM.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:01 AM   #13
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Besides the devices themselves, don't forget that Samsung copied other things as well like the packaging, the look of apps and app icons, even things like the charging plug. There are pictures online showing the similarities, and it's obvious that it's intentional copying.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:02 AM   #14
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The Legal Argument

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Originally Posted by thenerdal View Post
They have a different screen aspect ratio. They have a different look when you turn both on. The Tab doesn't have a button where the iPad does. You use the Tab in Landscape Mode while you use the iPad in Portrait. How can one not tell the difference?

Tell me how Samsung Copied Apple rather than "it has a screen on it with a black border" Because Samsung did it way before iPad came out.

http://www.engadget.com/2006/03/09/s...-movies-music/
Is conceptual rather than physical as I understand it. Patent law is so damn complex and I wasnt taking sides in my post above, just making an observation. Perhaps Apple are too litigious but they have the right to defend themselves in court if they wish.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:06 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Macman45 View Post
Is conceptual rather than physical as I understand it. Patent law is so damn complex and I wasnt taking sides in my post above, just making an observation. Perhaps Apple are too litigious but they have the right to defend themselves in court if they wish.
I think you raise a good point, though. If you remove the brand logo, can you tell a box of Kleenex apart from the Walmart brand tissue paper? Can you tell a Firestone tire apart from a Yokohama tire without the logo on it? Can you tell a Dell mouse apart from an HP mouse?

You've got a screen and a back casing. Not that this is the conclusion they are suggesting, but it's an absurdity to argue that a device whose physical appearance is that simple needs to have some physically distinguishing feature to be different. Certainly, although there are many similarities, no one has trouble telling Android apart from iOS on visuals, and it would be pretty easy to tell which is which when they're on and unlocked.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:07 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by milo View Post
Besides the devices themselves, don't forget that Samsung copied other things as well like the packaging, the look of apps and app icons, even things like the charging plug. There are pictures online showing the similarities, and it's obvious that it's intentional copying.
Samsung didn't copy the packaging. Nintendo DS had the same packaging that Apple is using. http://videogames.techfresh.net/wp-c...panese-box.jpg

As for your Samsung copying the charging plug, virtually all accessory hardware is made by just a few manufacturers, then repackaged and rebranded for different companies. So internally, those two charger are very likely the exact same hardware, probably made at the same facility. The boxing and branding is added after the fact by whoever buys the hardware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gnasher729 View Post
This case is about whether an ordinary consumer could be confused by similarities between an iPad and a Samsung tablet. A well-prepared Samsung lawyer should be able to keep them apart from two hundred yards away, blindfolded, or he isn't doing his job and should be fired on the spot.
You're making it seem like the lawyers should have magic powers that allows them to tell the difference even when blindfolded..
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:07 AM   #17
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Still don't understand why Samsung copied Apple in every regard. From the cable to the charger, to the box, to the device. Copied, Copied, Copied.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:11 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Macman45 View Post
Is conceptual rather than physical as I understand it. Patent law is so damn complex and I wasnt taking sides in my post above, just making an observation. Perhaps Apple are too litigious but they have the right to defend themselves in court if they wish.
The design of the iPad is basically(On the outside), a touch screen with a bezel around it. And that's pretty much what a tablet is. There's no other way to design it. Apple should just stop suing. :|
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:28 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by zin View Post
It's not really their legal team that is made of clowns. I've no doubt that it's made up of excellent lawyers. However, I suspect executive management has decided to force them to try and argue a case which has never had any chance of winning, all so that they can prove they didn't copy.
You're quite right, actually. It all starts with management.

----------

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Originally Posted by ouimetnick View Post
Still don't understand why Samsung copied Apple in every regard. From the cable to the charger, to the box, to the device. Copied, Copied, Copied.
What can you really expect from a company like this?

http://forums.macrumors.com/showpost...8&postcount=26
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:48 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by MonkeySee.... View Post
To be fair I doubt Samsungs lawyers give a toss about the tablets. They are just there to win and get paid.
To be fair, that is exactly the kind of person that must be used in this sort of test. If anything the Samsung lawyers should be very familiar with the differences since they are arguing this case on Samsung's behalf -- the average person would be even less aware. The point Apple is trying to make is that only a tech-geek knows the difference and that is not sufficient. I think the average person would require a bit a scrutiny to tell the tablets apart.

To be fair again, if this were a case between Sony and Vizio over a television I'd bet the average person could not tell which was the Sony and which was the Vizio. However, I don't think there are any design patents on those televisions.

The much more interesting ruling is out of the Netherlands with regards to the 3G technologies patents. The fact that a judge has now ruled that those patents should be subject to FRAND licensing terms AND has said that Samsung's proposed terms are not in compliance with FRAND licensing is a huge win for Apple.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 10:59 AM   #21
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so basically courts across the globe are saying:
1. samsung is ripping off apple
2. samsung is trying to bully apple with their 3G patents

and yet its the apple that gets the most flak
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 11:10 AM   #22
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Who's Winning?

If anyone wants to know the score, it's Apple-1; Samsung-0; Lawyers-8.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 11:36 AM   #23
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My aunt bought a samsung tab and genuinely thought it was an iPad. She was swindled though. The Verizon store insisted she was buying an iPad along with her phone. Obviously the biggest problem there was with the employee she encountered but she could not tell the difference herself and just believed him.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 11:42 AM   #24
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To be fair, that is exactly the kind of person that must be used in this sort of test. If anything the Samsung lawyers should be very familiar with the differences since they are arguing this case on Samsung's behalf -- the average person would be even less aware. The point Apple is trying to make is that only a tech-geek knows the difference and that is not sufficient. I think the average person would require a bit a scrutiny to tell the tablets apart.

To be fair again, if this were a case between Sony and Vizio over a television I'd bet the average person could not tell which was the Sony and which was the Vizio. However, I don't think there are any design patents on those televisions.

The much more interesting ruling is out of the Netherlands with regards to the 3G technologies patents. The fact that a judge has now ruled that those patents should be subject to FRAND licensing terms AND has said that Samsung's proposed terms are not in compliance with FRAND licensing is a huge win for Apple.
iPad has a button Tab doesn't. The average person would first look at both devices first before buying the device.(And it's usually on) iOS is way different than Honeycomb. I have no idea how an average person wouldn't tell the difference unless they think the iPad is the only tablet in the market......

To be fair an average person compares TV's in stores as well with the TV's being labeled.

The Lawyer was not in a situation that an average person would be in. He was 10 feet away from both devices. OF COURSE you wouldn't be able to see the difference.
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Old Oct 14, 2011, 12:02 PM   #25
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No matter what we think about this particular comparison, Samsung has screwed themselves.

Not only is Samsung starting to lose (or at best "tie") these battles in courts all over the globe - but they have pissed off Apple.

Samsung makes memory and processing chips. Apple was Samsung's largest customer. Apple has already started shifting to other vendors, and ultimately Samsung is going to lose significantly more than they stood to gain by suing Apple.

Samsung cut off their nose with no consideration for their face...

----------

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Originally Posted by thenerdal View Post

To be fair an average person compares TV's in stores as well with the TV's being labeled.

The Lawyer was not in a situation that an average person would be in. He was 10 feet away from both devices. OF COURSE you wouldn't be able to see the difference.
My brand new LG TV and my year old LG TV both have nicely visible "LG" logos on the front. Even though there are only so many ways you can style a TV and they all kind of look alike, LG made a bezel that was styled in a particular way to call out the TV as an LG.

Samsung could have done so with their bezel. They could slap a nice prominent Samsung logo and maybe change the color fade or style just enough. But they didn't. They released the tablet looking *exactly* like an iPad.

Sony, Microsoft, Motorola, Amazon - they would all sue anyone who did the same to them. In fact, if you made a tablet and a company made one that looked exactly like yours - you would sue them too.

Apple is not the bad guy here, no kool-aid needed.

Samsung could have altered one of a hundred design considerations and prevented this whole mess. They didn't.
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