They specialize in fixing logic boards...for a reasonable price. I was wondering if anyone ever used them or are they reliable, trusted, etc? I can't find much reviews on them except on their page. They are in New York, so I'm no where near them and would have to mail my laptop in if I ever needed a logic board repair...and that kind of makes me iffy. So if anyone knows anything about them, I would like to know! Thank you! (Or does anyone else know of a place who does a good job with logic board repairs and wouldn't make you pay a hefty sum?)
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L2 Computer Inc. - Anyone ever use them before?
- Thread starter aliglitterglam
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Regarding L2 Computer, Inc. and inadequate repair work
Regarding L2 Computer, Inc. and inadequate repair work
Beware of repair shops that provide inadequate warranty policies to cover up their incomplete, or sub-standard, work. If you do business with such shops, you will only expose yourself to unnecessary frustration and disappointment.
Unfortunately, L2 Computer Inc. appears to be one such computer repair shop.
L2 Computer only provides a 30-day warranty to cover their repairs. While you may think that such a chintzy warranty policy is par for the course, when you really examine it, you will conclude that it is not.
If your computer breaks down within that 30-day warranty, L2 Computer will repair it again for free. However, if your allegedly repaired computer begins to fail after 30 days and you are foolish enough to send it back to L2 Computer again to fix the problem(s) you had pre-paid them full price to fix the first time around, then they will charge you yet again to do the repairs--this time at a "discount" for half of the original price you had paid. (Plus shipping charges, of course.)
And, if your computer manages to work OK for six months, but it again becomes so dysfunctional that it drives you crazy, you can send your ailing computer back to L2 Computer, but you will have to pay full price once again, because the clock gets reset at that six-month point. So, if they don't get you for half-price after the 30 days milestone, they have a chance to milk you for more money after 6 months have elapsed--if you're dumb enough to fall for their game, that is. That's some business model!
I speak from experience. I sent a PowerPC-based iMac G5 to L2 Computer for repair, because it would not start up. I would hear a chime, but the computer would not go further than the black screen which accompanied the start-up chime.
Within about four weeks, L2 Computer returned my iMac G5 to me, and, I must admit, I was initially pleased to see that it would start up. My first impression was that I thought they were miracle workers. But that first impression soon faded with time. Although the allegedly newly repaired iMac G5 took a lot longer to start up than before, and although it would occasionally crash for no reason I could discern, for the most part, I was pleased to observe that they appeared to have breathed new life into my computer. That was my experience during the first month.
The iMac G5 was at least able to start-up (on occasion), but it definitely did not behave as if it were new, or completely fixed. Since a local shop to which I had taken the iMac G5 for repair could not do anything with it during the six months they had it in their possession but tell me that "something" was wrong with the motherboard, for which they charged me about $100 as a "diagnostics" fee, I was thankful for the small favor which L2 Computer gave me. I felt that I could tolerate an occasional freeze-up or random crash just to get the damn thing to start-up at all.
However, in the second month of service, the iMac G5 began to freeze up and crash more often. Sometimes, it would simply refuse to start-up, too. The iMac G5 would either never get to a gray screen, or if it did reach a gray screen, the gear would not spin. Or, if the gear did spin, it would stop spinning within a few seconds, but never advance beyond that point.
Sometimes, the fan would just kick in moments after I pressed the power on button.When the fan kicked in, the start-up process was doomed: the iMac G5 would never start-up after that, as if the lazy computer was laughing at me, saying "Stop trying to put me to work, I just want to stay cool and refreshed."
Sometimes, I could get the iMac G5 to start-up by holding down the Option key during the start-up process and selecting either the Leopard or Panther partition as my start-up volume. That technique did not always work, however. When it did work, the iMac G5 would hum along for a little while--maybe for a few minutes, maybe for a few hours--but it would inevitably freeze up, compelling me to perform a Forced Shut Down by holding in the Power ON button for several seconds.
By the third month of service, the frequency of the iMac's refusal to start-up increased faster than a spoiled child yelling and screaming for attention. So did the frequency of the freezes during those few times I did somehow manage--usually after several attempts--to get the iMac to start-up.
I tried to see if there was a pattern in the freezes, but there was none. The iMac would crash for no reason at all, whether I was in the Finder or browsing the web, or using some other application. The cursor would freeze; the clock would stop; the fan would kick in (or not); and my only recourse then was to force it to shut down.
For a computer as lazy as this one was turning out to be, the iMac G5 would never go into Sleep mode. This was true from the first day I received the computer from L2 Computer. Although it had no problem sleeping in its previous incarnation before the trouble occurred, now, after being "repaired" by L2 Computer, it could not go to sleep.
Often, after the screen saver kicked in due to inactivity, followed by a black screen, the computer would become unresponsive to any attempt to activate it, even though the power was on. Sometimes, the iMac would just freeze up and kick the fan on, again as if to say: "I'm tired, and I'm going to cool myself off, sucker. You better press the Power ON button now, because I'm done working today." Sometimes the computer would freeze while the screensaver was running, turning the normally flowing flurries into a static, dead image.
In my attempts to trouble-shoot the problem over these past three months without bothering the repair shop once again, I ran my hard disk maintenance utility software (TechTool Pro; DiskWarrior; Drive Genius) dozens of times, but that did not work in solving the underlying problem. Using Firewire, I would occasionally start-up the computer from the external hard drive clones created by SuperDuper, but using a different hard drive as the start-up volume did not solve the problem either.
I tried optimizing the hard drive to eliminate file fragmentation. That did not help. I rebuilt the directory dozens of times, using the DiskWarrior CD as my startup disk. That did not help.
Finally, I even used the original Leopard installation DVD to Archive and Install a fresh operating system, but did not solve the problem either. The start-up procedure is still a crap shoot: you never know for sure if this particular roll of the dice will result in a successful start-up. Even with a brand new operating system, the freezing-up occurs at random times with no discernible pattern.
After spending innumerable hours trying to trouble-shoot the problem over the three months since L2 Computer "repaired" my iMac, I reluctantly arrived at the conclusion that my iMac G5's problem must be hardware-related. Unfortunately, this means that L2 Computer had essentially failed to do the job for which I had pre-paid them. Although I might have initially been impressed with their magic, it did not take very long before I began to curse and condemn them for releasing such shoddy work to me.
When L2 Computer shipped my computer back to me, they did not include a report on what they had done. So, their "repairs" were a bit of a mystery to me. I had pre-paid them $327.15, and I had spent another $28.75 for UPS shipping. That's a lot of money. But, as I was weighing my options regarding what to do with my iMac, I had decided that repairing my old iMac G5 would be much cheaper than buying a new Intel Mac computer, especially when I had to factor in all the new software applications I'd have to get to run on it to get an equivalent level of productivity. So, I opted for the repair, with the hope and the expectation that the problem would be fixed once and for all.
By believing that L2 Computer really does have, as they declare on their website when you are about to place an order, an "over 90% success rate on our logic board repairs," I trusted them to solve my computer's problem. I now realize that I was wrong. My trust was misplacedboth in their technical expertise and in their business policy.
Additionally, I had relied too heavily on the positive testimonials posted on the L2 Computer website, all of which had, naturally, been approved ahead of time by L2 Computer management, since there were no critical comments whatsoever to give a new customer a balanced perspective. My comments are intended to balance off those glowing remarks, if, indeed, any of them are genuine.
Some people might ask, "Why did you not contact them sooner, when you first recognized problems?" My answer is that, although I did encounter all of these problems during the initial 30-day warranty period, the rate at which the start-up failures and the freeze-ups occurred, while troublesome, was not as frequent, nor as alarming, as they became after that 30 days warranty period. I thought that I could live with them.
Besides, I consider it essential that a Mac user must perform his due diligence prior to complaining to a computer repair shop that their so-called repair was nothing but a temporary band-aid that did not really or completely solve the original problem I presented to them. I needed more information, more ammunition, with which to complain to them that their work turned out to be unsatisfactory and that the ethical thing for them to do is to make good on the job for which I paid them a hefty amount of money.
Having exceeded my limit of tolerance with all the false start-ups and the random, out-of-nowhere freezes and crashes, I finally decided to call them and report my experience with my computer since they "repaired" it. In the course of my conversation, I naturally asked them to make good on their work, to give me back a fully functioning computer that would not drive me crazy every time I wanted to use it.
No, they said today (July 14, 2013), we won't do any more repairs on your iMac G5 unless you pay us once again. This time, however, we will only charge you 50% of what you originally paid, because your 30-day warranty period--during which we would have made further repairs for free--has expired. That's our policy, and we're sticking to it, the customer service rep insisted.
When I complained that L2 Computer obviously had not done the job right the first time and that, from an ethical standpoint, they ought to have the integrity to stand by their work, they steadfastly refused to make good on their work without further payment. I warned the customer service representative with whom I spoke that he better consult his manager before holding so firmly to his company's 30-day warranty policy else I would write a detailed, negative report on my dealings with L2 Computer. He put me on hold several times as he consulted with his boss, but the manager also failed to see the big picture of how important it is to make customers happy: the best his manager could do, said the rep, was to knock of $20 from their 50% repair fee, effectively asking me to pay them another $150 (plus shipping) to do the job right.
No way, I said. "Why should I pay you more money to fix a problem that you failed to adequately analyze and solve the first time around," I asked?
"Why should I pay you more money in order to once again subject myself to your unreasonable 30-day warranty period, when I have absolutely no confidence that you can do the job right, or that the computer will be fixed for the long-term, without requiring additional band-aid repairs like the one you previously performed? Do you think that I'm so foolish that I will let you milk me for money forever?"
I asked the customer service rep if he ever read the reviews customers posted on Amazon.com about products they were considering buying. He said yes, he did. I then asked him if he thought potential buyers were influenced by negative comments that exposed the weaknesses and flaws of the product. He again said yes.
To be fair, I then cautioned him that I would write a very negative report of my experience with L2 Computer. I also warned him that their failure to modify their repair policy to the point that they would truly stand by their work could end up costing them lots of lost revenue. I also told him that L2 Computer is not the only repair shop providing laptop and computer repair. My choice came down to them or a repair shop in California, I said, and I chose L2 Computer only because I live in New York, and because L2 Computer's service fee and the shipping charges were cheaper, by comparison. In retrospect, that was my first mistake!
Neither the customer service rep nor his manager would be swayed by my threat to publish a scathingly negative, but honest, review. So, the conversation with them ended, and my conversation with potential customers like you begins.
I sent them a copy of this review, and I gave them one month's grace in which to come to their senses and respond in a positive way. Since they failed to do so, I have decided to go along and publish my report for all would-be customers to take into consideration before sending them your computer.
You have just been warned! If you still want to give your business to a repair shop like that, at least you know what you will have to deal with, should you, too, find yourself at the losing end of an unsatisfactory, unfulfilling transaction. You'll have only yourself to blame for trying to beat the odds.
As for me, I will not be sending my iMac in to L2 Computer, Inc. for any additional repairs. I will either retire it, or send it elsewhere for repair. As I explained to the customer service rep, if I were to send my iMac G5 back to L2 Computer, it would be like taking my car back to a mechanic who had put inferior parts in my car--parts that would last through the 30 days of his repair shop's "policy," but whose parts would fail soon after that warranty period expired, either because his diagnosis skills were inadequate, or his parts were inferior, or both.
In short, L2 Computer fooled me once: I won't let them do it again. You'd think that after all my complaining, along with several other negative reviews written by other customers, L2 Computer would get the point and extend their warranty period to a respectable six months. If they did that, I assured him, L2 Computer would garner all of the business in the country, because a warranty like commands respect. It trumpets the fact that the technicians know their work and that the managers stand for quality.
However, instead of taking the high road, L2 Computer is electing to stick with its unfair, unethical 30-day honeymoon period warranty policy. Instead of learning from their mistakes; they want customers like me to pay for them. Well, I refuse to do that. So, I hope that this review, along with others like it, will teach them a lesson where they can best understand it: in their pocketbook, due to lost revenue from potential customers who turned away from them.
I hate to come across as stereotypical or disparaging about the economic policies which drive one of major competitor nations, but all Americans know that China floods the United States market with a lot of cheap and ultimately inferior products. L2 Computer Inc., being a Chinese owned-and-operated shop, no doubt draws upon such sub-standard manufacturing techniques and philosophies, a fact which was verified to me when I called the shop after several weeks had elapsed during their repairs on my computer to inquire about the reason for the delay. I was told that they were waiting for parts from China. Great! Just what my computer needs: a part that doesn't fit or won't work for very long.
Today, in the absence of a written report accompanying my computer, I learned that L2 Computer Inc "fixed" my iMac's original problem by installing three new capacitors and "repairing" the original video card. Then, during their testing, since the computer started-up, they considered the problem solved, so they shipped it off to me.
Obviously, they were wrong then. And they are wrong now. If L2 Computer deludes itself into believing that I will trust them to put yet more inferior replacement parts that might actually work for 30 days, but will likely fail within a short time after that, then they are behaving as irrationally as my computer is. Forcing unsophisticated customers to consider throwing more good money at a problem, which, like a calculus, they may never be able to truly and completely solve, is not a good business policy.
Since such a business policy is lacking in integrity, it certainly does not inspire confidence and respect. Regardless of the business one is engaged in, people who do good quality work always stand behind their work: they don't try to extort more money from their customers due to their incompetence and their failure to do the job right the first time!
I've lived in the Far East for over four years as a Peace Corps Volunteer, so I tend to see L2 Computer's failure to understand not so much as a cultural problem, though there may be an element of that occurring which is making it impossible for L2 Computer's management to grasp what a lousy warranty policy they have, but as a problem of individual, short-sighted, somewhat greedy human beings. Accordingly, I tend to see their short-sightedness as an example of a poorly managed business enterprise. I cannot support such a business.
On its website, L2 Computer states that they "have over 90% success rate on our logic board repairs." You would think that a company which could boast such success would also have the integrity to make good on the other 10% in order to assert their service as one to be trusted. Apparently not. Their short-sighted vision won't allow them to see that far.
Of course, who really knows what their true success rate is? L2 Computer can claim whatever they want, but to prove fraud, someone would need to examine their books and do a proper account. I'm not about to do that. Why should I bother? Just putting out the word should be sufficient to the wise.
Besides, customers desperate to have their computers fixed tend to believe success stories because that's what they want to believe: whether they're being told the truth or not is another story.
I just shared my story with you. Do with it what you will.
But, as I said in the beginning, beware. Be aware.
John-Michael Battaglia
P.S. For more revealing insights into the L2 Computer operation, you can do a Google search for "l2 computer inc review" and follow the links you find there.
I have included links to a few of those reviews below. I only wish I had come across such warnings about L2 Computer prior to electing to do business with them. Now I know that my experience with L2 Computer is not an isolated incident: it is their standard way of doing business.
L2 Computers, 9sky, dqsales: Fraud and theft. New York, New York.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/L2-Co...ales-Fraud-and-theft-New-York-New-York-747947
Better Business Bureau reports
http://www.bbb.org/NYC/business-rev...-parts/l2-computer-inc-in-new-york-ny-128132/
Yelp
http://www.yelp.com/biz/l2-computer-manhattan-2
Mac Rumors: L2 Computer Inc. - Anyone ever use them before?
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1255451/
Regarding L2 Computer, Inc. and inadequate repair work
Beware of repair shops that provide inadequate warranty policies to cover up their incomplete, or sub-standard, work. If you do business with such shops, you will only expose yourself to unnecessary frustration and disappointment.
Unfortunately, L2 Computer Inc. appears to be one such computer repair shop.
L2 Computer only provides a 30-day warranty to cover their repairs. While you may think that such a chintzy warranty policy is par for the course, when you really examine it, you will conclude that it is not.
If your computer breaks down within that 30-day warranty, L2 Computer will repair it again for free. However, if your allegedly repaired computer begins to fail after 30 days and you are foolish enough to send it back to L2 Computer again to fix the problem(s) you had pre-paid them full price to fix the first time around, then they will charge you yet again to do the repairs--this time at a "discount" for half of the original price you had paid. (Plus shipping charges, of course.)
And, if your computer manages to work OK for six months, but it again becomes so dysfunctional that it drives you crazy, you can send your ailing computer back to L2 Computer, but you will have to pay full price once again, because the clock gets reset at that six-month point. So, if they don't get you for half-price after the 30 days milestone, they have a chance to milk you for more money after 6 months have elapsed--if you're dumb enough to fall for their game, that is. That's some business model!
I speak from experience. I sent a PowerPC-based iMac G5 to L2 Computer for repair, because it would not start up. I would hear a chime, but the computer would not go further than the black screen which accompanied the start-up chime.
Within about four weeks, L2 Computer returned my iMac G5 to me, and, I must admit, I was initially pleased to see that it would start up. My first impression was that I thought they were miracle workers. But that first impression soon faded with time. Although the allegedly newly repaired iMac G5 took a lot longer to start up than before, and although it would occasionally crash for no reason I could discern, for the most part, I was pleased to observe that they appeared to have breathed new life into my computer. That was my experience during the first month.
The iMac G5 was at least able to start-up (on occasion), but it definitely did not behave as if it were new, or completely fixed. Since a local shop to which I had taken the iMac G5 for repair could not do anything with it during the six months they had it in their possession but tell me that "something" was wrong with the motherboard, for which they charged me about $100 as a "diagnostics" fee, I was thankful for the small favor which L2 Computer gave me. I felt that I could tolerate an occasional freeze-up or random crash just to get the damn thing to start-up at all.
However, in the second month of service, the iMac G5 began to freeze up and crash more often. Sometimes, it would simply refuse to start-up, too. The iMac G5 would either never get to a gray screen, or if it did reach a gray screen, the gear would not spin. Or, if the gear did spin, it would stop spinning within a few seconds, but never advance beyond that point.
Sometimes, the fan would just kick in moments after I pressed the power on button.When the fan kicked in, the start-up process was doomed: the iMac G5 would never start-up after that, as if the lazy computer was laughing at me, saying "Stop trying to put me to work, I just want to stay cool and refreshed."
Sometimes, I could get the iMac G5 to start-up by holding down the Option key during the start-up process and selecting either the Leopard or Panther partition as my start-up volume. That technique did not always work, however. When it did work, the iMac G5 would hum along for a little while--maybe for a few minutes, maybe for a few hours--but it would inevitably freeze up, compelling me to perform a Forced Shut Down by holding in the Power ON button for several seconds.
By the third month of service, the frequency of the iMac's refusal to start-up increased faster than a spoiled child yelling and screaming for attention. So did the frequency of the freezes during those few times I did somehow manage--usually after several attempts--to get the iMac to start-up.
I tried to see if there was a pattern in the freezes, but there was none. The iMac would crash for no reason at all, whether I was in the Finder or browsing the web, or using some other application. The cursor would freeze; the clock would stop; the fan would kick in (or not); and my only recourse then was to force it to shut down.
For a computer as lazy as this one was turning out to be, the iMac G5 would never go into Sleep mode. This was true from the first day I received the computer from L2 Computer. Although it had no problem sleeping in its previous incarnation before the trouble occurred, now, after being "repaired" by L2 Computer, it could not go to sleep.
Often, after the screen saver kicked in due to inactivity, followed by a black screen, the computer would become unresponsive to any attempt to activate it, even though the power was on. Sometimes, the iMac would just freeze up and kick the fan on, again as if to say: "I'm tired, and I'm going to cool myself off, sucker. You better press the Power ON button now, because I'm done working today." Sometimes the computer would freeze while the screensaver was running, turning the normally flowing flurries into a static, dead image.
In my attempts to trouble-shoot the problem over these past three months without bothering the repair shop once again, I ran my hard disk maintenance utility software (TechTool Pro; DiskWarrior; Drive Genius) dozens of times, but that did not work in solving the underlying problem. Using Firewire, I would occasionally start-up the computer from the external hard drive clones created by SuperDuper, but using a different hard drive as the start-up volume did not solve the problem either.
I tried optimizing the hard drive to eliminate file fragmentation. That did not help. I rebuilt the directory dozens of times, using the DiskWarrior CD as my startup disk. That did not help.
Finally, I even used the original Leopard installation DVD to Archive and Install a fresh operating system, but did not solve the problem either. The start-up procedure is still a crap shoot: you never know for sure if this particular roll of the dice will result in a successful start-up. Even with a brand new operating system, the freezing-up occurs at random times with no discernible pattern.
After spending innumerable hours trying to trouble-shoot the problem over the three months since L2 Computer "repaired" my iMac, I reluctantly arrived at the conclusion that my iMac G5's problem must be hardware-related. Unfortunately, this means that L2 Computer had essentially failed to do the job for which I had pre-paid them. Although I might have initially been impressed with their magic, it did not take very long before I began to curse and condemn them for releasing such shoddy work to me.
When L2 Computer shipped my computer back to me, they did not include a report on what they had done. So, their "repairs" were a bit of a mystery to me. I had pre-paid them $327.15, and I had spent another $28.75 for UPS shipping. That's a lot of money. But, as I was weighing my options regarding what to do with my iMac, I had decided that repairing my old iMac G5 would be much cheaper than buying a new Intel Mac computer, especially when I had to factor in all the new software applications I'd have to get to run on it to get an equivalent level of productivity. So, I opted for the repair, with the hope and the expectation that the problem would be fixed once and for all.
By believing that L2 Computer really does have, as they declare on their website when you are about to place an order, an "over 90% success rate on our logic board repairs," I trusted them to solve my computer's problem. I now realize that I was wrong. My trust was misplacedboth in their technical expertise and in their business policy.
Additionally, I had relied too heavily on the positive testimonials posted on the L2 Computer website, all of which had, naturally, been approved ahead of time by L2 Computer management, since there were no critical comments whatsoever to give a new customer a balanced perspective. My comments are intended to balance off those glowing remarks, if, indeed, any of them are genuine.
Some people might ask, "Why did you not contact them sooner, when you first recognized problems?" My answer is that, although I did encounter all of these problems during the initial 30-day warranty period, the rate at which the start-up failures and the freeze-ups occurred, while troublesome, was not as frequent, nor as alarming, as they became after that 30 days warranty period. I thought that I could live with them.
Besides, I consider it essential that a Mac user must perform his due diligence prior to complaining to a computer repair shop that their so-called repair was nothing but a temporary band-aid that did not really or completely solve the original problem I presented to them. I needed more information, more ammunition, with which to complain to them that their work turned out to be unsatisfactory and that the ethical thing for them to do is to make good on the job for which I paid them a hefty amount of money.
Having exceeded my limit of tolerance with all the false start-ups and the random, out-of-nowhere freezes and crashes, I finally decided to call them and report my experience with my computer since they "repaired" it. In the course of my conversation, I naturally asked them to make good on their work, to give me back a fully functioning computer that would not drive me crazy every time I wanted to use it.
No, they said today (July 14, 2013), we won't do any more repairs on your iMac G5 unless you pay us once again. This time, however, we will only charge you 50% of what you originally paid, because your 30-day warranty period--during which we would have made further repairs for free--has expired. That's our policy, and we're sticking to it, the customer service rep insisted.
When I complained that L2 Computer obviously had not done the job right the first time and that, from an ethical standpoint, they ought to have the integrity to stand by their work, they steadfastly refused to make good on their work without further payment. I warned the customer service representative with whom I spoke that he better consult his manager before holding so firmly to his company's 30-day warranty policy else I would write a detailed, negative report on my dealings with L2 Computer. He put me on hold several times as he consulted with his boss, but the manager also failed to see the big picture of how important it is to make customers happy: the best his manager could do, said the rep, was to knock of $20 from their 50% repair fee, effectively asking me to pay them another $150 (plus shipping) to do the job right.
No way, I said. "Why should I pay you more money to fix a problem that you failed to adequately analyze and solve the first time around," I asked?
"Why should I pay you more money in order to once again subject myself to your unreasonable 30-day warranty period, when I have absolutely no confidence that you can do the job right, or that the computer will be fixed for the long-term, without requiring additional band-aid repairs like the one you previously performed? Do you think that I'm so foolish that I will let you milk me for money forever?"
I asked the customer service rep if he ever read the reviews customers posted on Amazon.com about products they were considering buying. He said yes, he did. I then asked him if he thought potential buyers were influenced by negative comments that exposed the weaknesses and flaws of the product. He again said yes.
To be fair, I then cautioned him that I would write a very negative report of my experience with L2 Computer. I also warned him that their failure to modify their repair policy to the point that they would truly stand by their work could end up costing them lots of lost revenue. I also told him that L2 Computer is not the only repair shop providing laptop and computer repair. My choice came down to them or a repair shop in California, I said, and I chose L2 Computer only because I live in New York, and because L2 Computer's service fee and the shipping charges were cheaper, by comparison. In retrospect, that was my first mistake!
Neither the customer service rep nor his manager would be swayed by my threat to publish a scathingly negative, but honest, review. So, the conversation with them ended, and my conversation with potential customers like you begins.
I sent them a copy of this review, and I gave them one month's grace in which to come to their senses and respond in a positive way. Since they failed to do so, I have decided to go along and publish my report for all would-be customers to take into consideration before sending them your computer.
You have just been warned! If you still want to give your business to a repair shop like that, at least you know what you will have to deal with, should you, too, find yourself at the losing end of an unsatisfactory, unfulfilling transaction. You'll have only yourself to blame for trying to beat the odds.
As for me, I will not be sending my iMac in to L2 Computer, Inc. for any additional repairs. I will either retire it, or send it elsewhere for repair. As I explained to the customer service rep, if I were to send my iMac G5 back to L2 Computer, it would be like taking my car back to a mechanic who had put inferior parts in my car--parts that would last through the 30 days of his repair shop's "policy," but whose parts would fail soon after that warranty period expired, either because his diagnosis skills were inadequate, or his parts were inferior, or both.
In short, L2 Computer fooled me once: I won't let them do it again. You'd think that after all my complaining, along with several other negative reviews written by other customers, L2 Computer would get the point and extend their warranty period to a respectable six months. If they did that, I assured him, L2 Computer would garner all of the business in the country, because a warranty like commands respect. It trumpets the fact that the technicians know their work and that the managers stand for quality.
However, instead of taking the high road, L2 Computer is electing to stick with its unfair, unethical 30-day honeymoon period warranty policy. Instead of learning from their mistakes; they want customers like me to pay for them. Well, I refuse to do that. So, I hope that this review, along with others like it, will teach them a lesson where they can best understand it: in their pocketbook, due to lost revenue from potential customers who turned away from them.
I hate to come across as stereotypical or disparaging about the economic policies which drive one of major competitor nations, but all Americans know that China floods the United States market with a lot of cheap and ultimately inferior products. L2 Computer Inc., being a Chinese owned-and-operated shop, no doubt draws upon such sub-standard manufacturing techniques and philosophies, a fact which was verified to me when I called the shop after several weeks had elapsed during their repairs on my computer to inquire about the reason for the delay. I was told that they were waiting for parts from China. Great! Just what my computer needs: a part that doesn't fit or won't work for very long.
Today, in the absence of a written report accompanying my computer, I learned that L2 Computer Inc "fixed" my iMac's original problem by installing three new capacitors and "repairing" the original video card. Then, during their testing, since the computer started-up, they considered the problem solved, so they shipped it off to me.
Obviously, they were wrong then. And they are wrong now. If L2 Computer deludes itself into believing that I will trust them to put yet more inferior replacement parts that might actually work for 30 days, but will likely fail within a short time after that, then they are behaving as irrationally as my computer is. Forcing unsophisticated customers to consider throwing more good money at a problem, which, like a calculus, they may never be able to truly and completely solve, is not a good business policy.
Since such a business policy is lacking in integrity, it certainly does not inspire confidence and respect. Regardless of the business one is engaged in, people who do good quality work always stand behind their work: they don't try to extort more money from their customers due to their incompetence and their failure to do the job right the first time!
I've lived in the Far East for over four years as a Peace Corps Volunteer, so I tend to see L2 Computer's failure to understand not so much as a cultural problem, though there may be an element of that occurring which is making it impossible for L2 Computer's management to grasp what a lousy warranty policy they have, but as a problem of individual, short-sighted, somewhat greedy human beings. Accordingly, I tend to see their short-sightedness as an example of a poorly managed business enterprise. I cannot support such a business.
On its website, L2 Computer states that they "have over 90% success rate on our logic board repairs." You would think that a company which could boast such success would also have the integrity to make good on the other 10% in order to assert their service as one to be trusted. Apparently not. Their short-sighted vision won't allow them to see that far.
Of course, who really knows what their true success rate is? L2 Computer can claim whatever they want, but to prove fraud, someone would need to examine their books and do a proper account. I'm not about to do that. Why should I bother? Just putting out the word should be sufficient to the wise.
Besides, customers desperate to have their computers fixed tend to believe success stories because that's what they want to believe: whether they're being told the truth or not is another story.
I just shared my story with you. Do with it what you will.
But, as I said in the beginning, beware. Be aware.
John-Michael Battaglia
P.S. For more revealing insights into the L2 Computer operation, you can do a Google search for "l2 computer inc review" and follow the links you find there.
I have included links to a few of those reviews below. I only wish I had come across such warnings about L2 Computer prior to electing to do business with them. Now I know that my experience with L2 Computer is not an isolated incident: it is their standard way of doing business.
L2 Computers, 9sky, dqsales: Fraud and theft. New York, New York.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/L2-Co...ales-Fraud-and-theft-New-York-New-York-747947
Better Business Bureau reports
http://www.bbb.org/NYC/business-rev...-parts/l2-computer-inc-in-new-york-ny-128132/
Yelp
http://www.yelp.com/biz/l2-computer-manhattan-2
Mac Rumors: L2 Computer Inc. - Anyone ever use them before?
https://forums.macrumors.com/threads/1255451/
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My opinion of L2,
I'd like to preface this by saying that L2 is about 39 blocks away from me - a half mile. If they went out of business, I'd absorb maybe $5k-$10k/mo in new jobs right off the bat because we're in the same field, selling the same parts, products, and services to the same general client bases. So yeah, if you're bashing L2, I'd be inclined to agree with everything you said, because it would benefit me.
THAT BEING SAID.
I disagree with almost everything negative said about L2 here.
There's a reason for those reviews. L2 takes the crap jobs no one else will. Yes, your computer probably died after a few months when they fixed it.. that's a consequence of fixing a computer with a what, 8, 9, 10 year old motherboard?
There is a reason that repair has a 30 day warranty. They're fixing an old piece of ****, with parts that have to be used/refurbished at this point because your computer was discontinued while I was still in high school. Your machine has a motherboard inside a below-average-ventilated-case and is damn near eight years old. Anyone who would offer a warranty longer than 30 SECONDS doing that particular job to that particular computer would be nuts. They do not have a choice between offering new or refurbished. They have a choice between refurbished or babysitting your computer for six months - like the local tech who charged you $100 for not doing ****. IMO, the latter is a much worse crime.
When every other computer repair shop says "**** off", L2 says "yes, we can help you!" As a result, yes, L2 is going to get a bunch of **** reviews online others aren't. Others are wise enough to simply not deal with the trouble. L2 takes everyone in and does their best.
Of the dwindling few shops that do component level repair, L2 is in the 1% that will revive your decade-old-POS if you ask nicely... but again, expectations going in are important here. It's fkn old.
I personally do my best to advise people when something's going to be trouble. I base this on experience. 30 tickets a day for enough time and you see the same problems, the same faults, and with some research find out why they're occuring. I advise people and give them the truth so they don't waste money on fixing something that will fail again. You know what that gets me?
You should just do what I asked you to.
Why won't you take my money?
That's rude, I asked you to do something for me.
And I'm starting to learn my lesson. You see, what I'm doing is treating others the way I'd like to be treated. I would want someone to tell me if I'm spending $200 to fix my $200 air conditioner. I would want someone to tell me if the bike I'm having fixed will break down in a month due to condition, age, or parts availability. But that's not everyone.
Regardless of the advice I give to try and save people from misery, they ignore it - and often go so far as to get angry when I say I can fix this, but you will very likely see a similar related issue not long down the line. As a result, I cannot recommend you repair your computer.
L2 has clearly learned this lesson much sooner than me. You see, they're business people, they're not trying to change an industry through ethical behavior... that's my idealistic crapshoot goal, and as time goes on, I find out more and more, it just doesn't work that way. Back to the point.
You can advise consumers on what they should do, but in the end, people often become angry if you do not make them feel good about what it is they want to do. Same people will curse you up and down when your predicted reality comes true & you don't fix it again for free until they come to their senses and buy something from the modern age.
L2 told you they have a 90% rate of success... this isn't a lie. This means you fell into the 10%, which isn't surprising since it's almost 10 years old.
I also cringe at the phone conversation where you actually interview the dude about reviews. It's one thing to say "I'm leaving a bad review" but to actually lead into it with "do you use product reviews on amazon" and to bring up their lost revenue, why? L2 has no lost revenue to worry about due to bad reviews because they are taking in jobs that no one else is doing. No one else in NYC is going to fix that 8 year old iMac motherboard.
Also, that comment on Chinese culture/economics is total ********! Over 75% of the AMERICAN OWNED laptop repair shops in New York are outsourcing all of their board repairs to L2 because THEY AREN'T DOING IT THEMSELVES.
The Chinese are often the ONLY PEOPLE EVEN DOING THIS WORK AT ALL! It has absolutely NOTHING to do about the low quality of a Chinese product. Americans consider themselves "too good" to deal with this ****. An American with a strong engineering background & the practical skillset to sit at a bench and do this kind of stuff wants to make $200k/yr working for the NSA, not $18/hour fixing your nine year old iMac. Chinese workmanship is something of value, to be respected for what it is - not devalued and trashed as lower quality.
Let me get this through to everyone - Not a single mother *G^F# part in your computer comes from America.. Of course the **** comes from China. Here in America, we manufacture substandard automobiles funded by taxpayer bailout money, not microprocessors or motherboard chipsets. It's so easy to sit on a high horse and **** on a Chinese business model without understanding anything about the work they are doing or the industry they are in.
They could close down retail altogether and still print money because as I said, they welcome everyone with open arms. Any problem, any machine. In terms of revenue, 99% of the customers don't actually READ the reviews that go on for pages, I poll 'em, so you're shooting yourself in the foot with that novel.
Yeah, they have bad reviews. Like five of them... and they take in over 50 tickets a day. For almost five years. It's one thing for a company to get by on gimmicks in the short term, but over five years, a company operating in the most expensive area of the U.S. would probably close if they sucked at what they did and there were choices. There are none.
If anything, L2 is guilty of not telling people "wait, stop, you're sending us an old piece of ****! BUY A NEW ONE ALREADY!!!" That's it.
Just my two cents. If you want to give them a shot, go for it. If you send in something over 5 years old and it doesn't last you long, don't say I didn't tell you so. Same goes if you send a board to me, or brickfence, or assetgenie. Give anyone who does this, Chinese or American, an 820-1881-A that takes 15 minutes to boot up and I'll sign you over my store lease if it lasts a full year without something else dying. Old **** should stay dead. JMO.
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My opinion of L2,
I'd like to preface this by saying that L2 is about 39 blocks away from me - a half mile. If they went out of business, I'd absorb maybe $5k-$10k/mo in new jobs right off the bat because we're in the same field, selling the same parts, products, and services to the same general client bases. So yeah, if you're bashing L2, I'd be inclined to agree with everything you said, because it would benefit me.
THAT BEING SAID.
I disagree with almost everything negative said about L2 here.
There's a reason for those reviews. L2 takes the crap jobs no one else will. Yes, your computer probably died after a few months when they fixed it.. that's a consequence of fixing a computer with a what, 8, 9, 10 year old motherboard?
There is a reason that repair has a 30 day warranty. They're fixing an old piece of ****, with parts that have to be used/refurbished at this point because your computer was discontinued while I was still in high school. Your machine has a motherboard inside a below-average-ventilated-case and is damn near eight years old. Anyone who would offer a warranty longer than 30 SECONDS doing that particular job to that particular computer would be nuts. They do not have a choice between offering new or refurbished. They have a choice between refurbished or babysitting your computer for six months - like the local tech who charged you $100 for not doing ****. IMO, the latter is a much worse crime.
When every other computer repair shop says "**** off", L2 says "yes, we can help you!" As a result, yes, L2 is going to get a bunch of **** reviews online others aren't. Others are wise enough to simply not deal with the trouble. L2 takes everyone in and does their best.
Of the dwindling few shops that do component level repair, L2 is in the 1% that will revive your decade-old-POS if you ask nicely... but again, expectations going in are important here. It's fkn old.
I personally do my best to advise people when something's going to be trouble. I base this on experience. 30 tickets a day for enough time and you see the same problems, the same faults, and with some research find out why they're occuring. I advise people and give them the truth so they don't waste money on fixing something that will fail again. You know what that gets me?
You should just do what I asked you to.
Why won't you take my money?
That's rude, I asked you to do something for me.
And I'm starting to learn my lesson. You see, what I'm doing is treating others the way I'd like to be treated. I would want someone to tell me if I'm spending $200 to fix my $200 air conditioner. I would want someone to tell me if the bike I'm having fixed will break down in a month due to condition, age, or parts availability. But that's not everyone.
Regardless of the advice I give to try and save people from misery, they ignore it - and often go so far as to get angry when I say I can fix this, but you will very likely see a similar related issue not long down the line. As a result, I cannot recommend you repair your computer.
L2 has clearly learned this lesson much sooner than me. You see, they're business people, they're not trying to change an industry through ethical behavior... that's my idealistic crapshoot goal, and as time goes on, I find out more and more, it just doesn't work that way. Back to the point.
You can advise consumers on what they should do, but in the end, people often become angry if you do not make them feel good about what it is they want to do. Same people will curse you up and down when your predicted reality comes true & you don't fix it again for free until they come to their senses and buy something from the modern age.
L2 told you they have a 90% rate of success... this isn't a lie. This means you fell into the 10%, which isn't surprising since it's almost 10 years old.
I also cringe at the phone conversation where you actually interview the dude about reviews. It's one thing to say "I'm leaving a bad review" but to actually lead into it with "do you use product reviews on amazon" and to bring up their lost revenue, why? L2 has no lost revenue to worry about due to bad reviews because they are taking in jobs that no one else is doing. No one else in NYC is going to fix that 8 year old iMac motherboard.
Also, that comment on Chinese culture/economics is total ********! Over 75% of the AMERICAN OWNED laptop repair shops in New York are outsourcing all of their board repairs to L2 because THEY AREN'T DOING IT THEMSELVES.
The Chinese are often the ONLY PEOPLE EVEN DOING THIS WORK AT ALL! It has absolutely NOTHING to do about the low quality of a Chinese product. Americans consider themselves "too good" to deal with this ****. An American with a strong engineering background & the practical skillset to sit at a bench and do this kind of stuff wants to make $200k/yr working for the NSA, not $18/hour fixing your nine year old iMac. Chinese workmanship is something of value, to be respected for what it is - not devalued and trashed as lower quality.
Let me get this through to everyone - Not a single mother *G^F# part in your computer comes from America.. Of course the **** comes from China. Here in America, we manufacture substandard automobiles funded by taxpayer bailout money, not microprocessors or motherboard chipsets. It's so easy to sit on a high horse and **** on a Chinese business model without understanding anything about the work they are doing or the industry they are in.
They could close down retail altogether and still print money because as I said, they welcome everyone with open arms. Any problem, any machine. In terms of revenue, 99% of the customers don't actually READ the reviews that go on for pages, I poll 'em, so you're shooting yourself in the foot with that novel.
Yeah, they have bad reviews. Like five of them... and they take in over 50 tickets a day. For almost five years. It's one thing for a company to get by on gimmicks in the short term, but over five years, a company operating in the most expensive area of the U.S. would probably close if they sucked at what they did and there were choices. There are none.
If anything, L2 is guilty of not telling people "wait, stop, you're sending us an old piece of ****! BUY A NEW ONE ALREADY!!!" That's it.
Just my two cents. If you want to give them a shot, go for it. If you send in something over 5 years old and it doesn't last you long, don't say I didn't tell you so. Same goes if you send a board to me, or brickfence, or assetgenie. Give anyone who does this, Chinese or American, an 820-1881-A that takes 15 minutes to boot up and I'll sign you over my store lease if it lasts a full year without something else dying. Old **** should stay dead. JMO.
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Had I known about your in-depth response to my post, I would have replied sooner, but illness and a screw-up with my Apple account prevented me from getting a notification that someone had extended the conversation.
Although your tendency to rant against repairing "old" computers marks you as a rather conflicted individual when one considers the fact that you are actually in the business of repairing such machines and breathing new life into them, overall I found your technical insights to be quite valuable and useful, so I thank you for taking the time to write such a detailed commentary.
I cannot tell, however, if you are intentionally too clever by half in promoting your own business by alleging to offer an apologia for L2 Computers, or if, in your wide-roaming diatribe against customers, who, for reasons that may totally escape your purview choose to repair rather than buy new, you inadvertently supported the main theme of my post that L2 Computers, in my opinion, is a business that lacks integrity and, on that basis alone, does not deserve to be supported.
You claim that you try to run an ethical repair business, in which you routinely advise customers when, in your expert technical opinion, it is simply not economically wise to invest more money in a computer that you believe has exceeded its useful life span and for which no repair can provide a lasting cure. If so, you are to be commended for running your operation in such an ethical manner, and you need not stoop to self-deprecation--whether false or calculated to impress potential new customers--by alleging that you are a slow learner in the world of business.
However, you go beyond the pale when you launch into a tirade against customers--like me, I suppose--who for good economic and practical reasons of our own--seek to repair an "old" machine rather than take on the comparatively more expensive burden of buying a newer one, which may or may not be compatible with the software than works perfectly well on the "old" computer, but which is incompatible with a newer computer, thus requiring a much greater cash outlay to remain productive. The decision to repair or to buy is, thus, never exclusively a hardware-only decision: it is a joint decision involving the cost of software upgrading as well. With your nose buried in circuit boards, you don't seem to take that factor into consideration at all, which I did, in electing to have my PowerPC-based iMac G5 repaired.
That being said...
The main issue here, if I must repeat it to make it stand out above the din of all the chatter trying to rationalize the behavior of an unethical business operation, is INTEGRITY.
Whether or not L2 Computer is the repair shop of last resort for desperate people who, you imply, are:
too technically ignorant to realize that their computers are allegedly unrepairable; or
too naive to understand that the business world is, as you apparently view it, an ugly place where only the liars, cheaters, and deceivers can win in a game that is based on corrupt, unspoken rules; or
too idealistic to project negativity on their business associates, or vendors, or repair shop owners lest they create a self-fulfilling disastrous result
is, as far as I am concerned, entirely off the mark.
The only issue here is whether or not that repair shop conducted its business ethically and honestly with me, and I wrote my report to alert others to the fact that it did not and that it has written policies in place to continue its practice of taking advantage of customers like me, who, above all, deserve honesty in a transaction, but will not get it.
Let me put it another way that might get this point across. Prior to my shipping my computer to New York City, had L2 Computers advised me of the technical realities that, due to the nature of my computer's failure, it was highly unlikely that my motherboard could be fixed or replaced such that it would run like new, I would never have sent them the computer in the first place. You claim that you tell your customers when they have, in your estimation, a "POS" that is not worth pouring more money into. If so, then bravo for you! They do not!
Your post comes across to this English major and marketing communications pro as a too clever by half method of exposing your competitor's lack of ethics by pretending to apologize for their business tactics for 95% of your post (instead of putting them down for being who they are), while only mentioning in passing that perhaps their only flaw is that they are not as ethical as they should be. That's a much better approach than completely agreeing with my argument, for, had you done only that, we could easily dismiss your remarks as a blatant attempt to grab their business.
But, since L2 Computers failed to do what you say you do on a routine basis, due to your admirable sense of business ethics, I rightfully castigated them for perpetuating what I consider a fraudulent operation designed only to take advantage of people like me, who consider mutual trust to be the most important criterion for any human transaction--business or personal.
Because L2 Computers intentionally neglected to provide me with the kind of full disclosure that you claim to provide your own customers before taking on any repair job, and because their abysmally short 30-day warranty period is such a woefully inadequate period in which to adequately determine whether the repair was successful or not, it seems obvious to me that customer service is not the first priority in their minds.
Would I ever consider giving them any business again? Never.
Did I learn my lesson about repairing "old" computers? Absolutely.
In fact, last week, when my 17-inch mid-2008 MacBook Pro laptop went from being a perfectly functioning machine to one that will no longer power-on, I took it to the local Apple Store for assessment and repair.
"Can't even bring it into the repair shop," said the Genius. Why, I asked? "Because it's more than five years old," he said. It's a "legacy" computer. When I pressed him for his best guess as to the problem, he and a techie nearby said that either the Left-side I/O chip, or the motherboard itself, went bad. Is it worth repairing, I asked? He said, no, which is what I would expect from an Apple Store employee interested in selling new machines, rather than repairing old ones.
Later that same day, I took my laptop to an Apple certified repair shop, which I had used before, although not the same one who kept my iMac for six months. They estimated between $275 and $500 to send it to a speciality shop, but they, too, advised against throwing good money at it.
So, with those honest assessments, and with the lesson I had learned last year from dealing with L2 Computers, a place I consider an unethical rip-off repair shop bordering upon fraudulent business practices, that same night I went to the Apple online store, and I ordered a Mac Pro.
No, not one of those brand-new, overly-powerful behemoths that looks like a waste-basket. But an "old" refurbished Mac Pro quad-core Nehalem model manufactured back in those "ancient" times of mid-2012. In three days, I'll install it at one end of my theatre-door desktop, separated by two Cinema Displays and balanced off by a still high-functioning, PowerMac G4 mirrored doors workhouse of a computer that runs Leopard, Tiger, Panther, and even boots up in OS 9, whenever I want to stroll down memory lane to play Three-in-3 and other games that were classics while you were still popping zits and developing a negative attitude toward everything "old."
(Beware what you fear: blink twice and you'll be exactly that.)
As to bottom-feeding repair shops like L2Computers, in my view, such unethical blood suckers ought to be run out of the business. For, whether you realize it or not, such operators give your entire industry a bad name. So, instead of apologizing for them, or rationalizing their abhorrent behavior and deceptive advertising tactics, you'd be better off not suggesting that customers seeking an honest repair shop are neither ignorant nor fools. We merely expect to be treated with honesty, respect, and dignity. If that is too much to ask, then sorry, but living in New York City must be morally hazardous to all who live there.
Sorry to hear about your bad experience. However it would appear that you knew what the warranty period was prior to agreeing to have your repair done. If you didnt like the 30 Day why didnt you just pick a repair company that had a warrantee period that suited you. I dont know what that would be. 6 Months? One year? More?
I seems like a lot of writing, assumptions and accusations seemingly all because a company wouldnt change their existing policies to suit you.
Am i missing something ?
I seems like a lot of writing, assumptions and accusations seemingly all because a company wouldnt change their existing policies to suit you.
Am i missing something ?
@TripleLucky
Empathy is one quality you are surely missing. Compassion another. Check with your cardiologist for other missing parts in that hole in your chest where a heart ought to be.
Taking your entire post in context, I find your expression of sympathy insincere. I also consider your questions impertinent, unfriendly, and provocative. Clearly, no good can come from a dialogue with you.
I shared my story because someone asked for honest information on what it was like dealing with L2 Computer, Inc.
The only question you need ask yourself is why you consistently feel compelled to intrude into threads where you have no supportive or useful information to offer.
I observe that this thread is not your first condescending or sarcastic raid into a discussion. No one seeking help on how to fix a liquid-damaged motherboard finds an oven recipe for baking muffins either useful or humorous.
Life is short. Isn't it kinder to be understanding and constructive instead of condescending and offensive?
Empathy is one quality you are surely missing. Compassion another. Check with your cardiologist for other missing parts in that hole in your chest where a heart ought to be.
Taking your entire post in context, I find your expression of sympathy insincere. I also consider your questions impertinent, unfriendly, and provocative. Clearly, no good can come from a dialogue with you.
I shared my story because someone asked for honest information on what it was like dealing with L2 Computer, Inc.
The only question you need ask yourself is why you consistently feel compelled to intrude into threads where you have no supportive or useful information to offer.
I observe that this thread is not your first condescending or sarcastic raid into a discussion. No one seeking help on how to fix a liquid-damaged motherboard finds an oven recipe for baking muffins either useful or humorous.
Life is short. Isn't it kinder to be understanding and constructive instead of condescending and offensive?
The point being made by TripleLucky is a principle that has existed since the business of sales has existed: buyer beware. It's up to each buyer to check the facts and find out who they're giving their money to, before the transaction occurs. Anyone who has operated in the business world for 6 months or more should have come to to realize the truth of the fact that business has little, if anything, to do with empathy, compassion or heart, no matter how much we may wish it was otherwise. It's about money. A buyer has no right to complain if they don't do their homework in advance, including things such as starting or reading a thread like this one.
Well, of course, the principle of caveat emptor dictates the nature of a business reaction. My awareness of, and respect for, that principle is the primary reason why I decided to share my experience with others as a public service.
The interesting thing is that a newbie like me had to provide such helpful information after all of you technical geeks completely ignored the plea by the original poster for nearly two years running! So, let's not preach about the value of doing one's homework when none of you but me stepped up to the plate to provide the kind of information a buyer needs prior to making a purchase. Prior to my sharing of my own experience, there was very little or no information upon which to make an intelligent buying decision. So, it's rather hypocritical, don't you think, to twist things backward by attempting to accuse me of not doing my homework when none of you provided the kind of information that I did, even though some of you were in the same business at that time and ignored the clarion call by the original poster to help him out.
As far as a buyer having "no right to complain," that's a stretch too far of the caveat emptor principle. Otherwise, there would be no Better Business Bureaus, no consumer protection agencies, no product recalls for defective or dangerous items, and no recourse whatsoever whenever people are taken advantage of by the unscrupulous, unethical, and uncaring practices of businesses which do not deserve to be supported, which, if you missed it, was my main warning in regards to L2 Computers.
Are we clear yet? Or do you still wish to attack me as a ploy to hijack the main thrust of this thread, which was a request for information about a specific repair shop?
The interesting thing is that a newbie like me had to provide such helpful information after all of you technical geeks completely ignored the plea by the original poster for nearly two years running! So, let's not preach about the value of doing one's homework when none of you but me stepped up to the plate to provide the kind of information a buyer needs prior to making a purchase. Prior to my sharing of my own experience, there was very little or no information upon which to make an intelligent buying decision. So, it's rather hypocritical, don't you think, to twist things backward by attempting to accuse me of not doing my homework when none of you provided the kind of information that I did, even though some of you were in the same business at that time and ignored the clarion call by the original poster to help him out.
As far as a buyer having "no right to complain," that's a stretch too far of the caveat emptor principle. Otherwise, there would be no Better Business Bureaus, no consumer protection agencies, no product recalls for defective or dangerous items, and no recourse whatsoever whenever people are taken advantage of by the unscrupulous, unethical, and uncaring practices of businesses which do not deserve to be supported, which, if you missed it, was my main warning in regards to L2 Computers.
Are we clear yet? Or do you still wish to attack me as a ploy to hijack the main thrust of this thread, which was a request for information about a specific repair shop?
There are many reasons why the OP didn't receive a response. With over 1.3 million threads in this forum, many threads are unnoticed for a while before they are responded to, and some never receive a response. I'm only subscribed to about 16% of those threads, and many are subscribed to even fewer. That doesn't indicate that people are ignoring the post, but they may not have seen it in the first place. In addition, with a question like the one posed in this thread, it's possible that no one who read the thread had any experience with the company, and therefore had nothing to say. Doing one's homework before making the purchase does not require them to get their information from only this forum. I only used that as an example of the type of homework that can be done. Anyone who gets burned by dealing with a less than reputable company, without investigating in advance, has only themselves to blame. If you're asking questions about a company in a particular forum and don't receive a response, common sense would suggest that you look elsewhere. Participation in this form is completely voluntary, so no one is obligated to respond to any particular thread if they don't choose to.
Finally, no one is attacking you. Just because somebody has a different point of view that you may not agree with, that doesn't constitute an attack.
I am very happy my post sparked some discussion. Give me some time to digest and I will come up with a reply. Thank you all!
I originally had this at the bottom of my post, but I'd like to bring it to the top.
Most people misdefine integrity. Integrity can be defined as being honest and fair. Integrity has also been defined as when one's actions align with one's thoughts.
Many people misdefine integrity. Many people think that integrity means when someone does "the right thing", by THEIR personal standard of what the "right" thing is.
There are different words for that, besides integrity.
Did L2 not tell you there was a 30 day warranty? It says so right in every one of their ads.
Was L2 not fair within this warranty period?
A lack of integrity would be offering a 365 day warranty, and screwing you over when you have an issue 88 days in. In this case, they would be doing something different than what they told you. In this case, they would be operating outside the terms of your agreement. But this is not the case.
Tthey did indeed tell you upfront exactly what you were getting. Their policy was in line with that.
My personal feelings - a 30 day warranty is complete dog ****. However, by the definition of the words - they did act with integrity. By the standards of the business licensing agencies in New York City(DCA), they did also act ethically.
In the end, integrity aside; It's not about ethics, or morals. It's about target demographics & their place in the market. They offer motherboard repair for $100-$200 with a 30 day warranty. Others offer motherboard repair for $400-$500 with a 1 year warranty.. or a lifetime warranty. It's all spelled out for you before you buy, and it's your choice which to choose. You made a choice, and you have to stick with it.
You are irritated that you bought a dirt cheap service and did not receive a long warranty, but that was your choice to make.
On the repair end, I have always targeted one specific demographic; those who wanted the best who would pay for it. On the supply end, back when I would sell parts as well as service, I spent some time going back and forth between targeting both demographics. The results astounded me.
I noticed that a majority of the people would choose lower quality by a large margin to save 10% on price; even when I made it very abundantly clear what the quality difference would be. As time went on, I had less and less sympathy for those who went for 50% as much quality for 10% discount.
You said that you called them to ask if people read online reviews before choosing who to use. I laughed at this because you are missing the point. The people charging $400-$500 for the same thing have to care about this, because their business is based on 5 star reviews and branding. You are trying to appeal to a $400-$500 sense of thinking within a $100-$200 repair service, but you didn't pay the $400-$500. If you are on the lower priced segment of the market, which L2 is, you do not have to care. The entire point is that they cut the warranty to offer the service at a lower price. They've already factored into their business model that it's worth a few bad reviews to get a boatload more business, which is what you get when you offer motherboard repair for $100-$200. Even with a 30 day warranty, that is a steal!
I do take that into consideration. I feel for you there.. I really do.
I have been forced to upgrade software that no longer worked on powerpcs. One still has to weigh into effect
a) the misery of dealing with new software
vs.
b) the misery of using the older, broken down hardware
In terms of getting business, yeah, it'd be easy to agree with your argument and go "yeah, if only L2 were ethical like us and offered a 1 year warranty!!"
If all i cared about were garnering business, if all I cared about were public image, that'd be the EASY thing to do.
But I don't... not one bit. I care about posting my uncensored opinion. As someone within the industry there was too much in your post that had no counter, that really needed a counter.
I'm not trying to defend L2 as the greatest business. I was trying to promote understanding of the industry from an insider's perspective. I don't like L2, I have had business with them in the past. At the same time, I feel bad watching them get all this flak for doing something that no one else is doing, and I acknowledge that. It's fair.
What I saw you say presented a very one sided argument with the standards & stereotypes(cheap chinese whatever) of what is ethical & unethical and I decided to disagree.
That's completely your right and I respect your opinion. I expressed mine which is that they operate a basic business.. you ask them to fix the eight year old ****, and they fix the eight year old ****.
Most people misdefine integrity. Integrity can be defined as being honest and fair. Integrity has also been defined as when one's actions align with one's thoughts.
Many people misdefine integrity. Many people think that integrity means when someone does "the right thing", by THEIR personal standard of what the "right" thing is.
There are different words for that, besides integrity.
Did L2 not tell you there was a 30 day warranty? It says so right in every one of their ads.
Was L2 not fair within this warranty period?
A lack of integrity would be offering a 365 day warranty, and screwing you over when you have an issue 88 days in. In this case, they would be doing something different than what they told you. In this case, they would be operating outside the terms of your agreement. But this is not the case.
Tthey did indeed tell you upfront exactly what you were getting. Their policy was in line with that.
My personal feelings - a 30 day warranty is complete dog ****. However, by the definition of the words - they did act with integrity. By the standards of the business licensing agencies in New York City(DCA), they did also act ethically.
In the end, integrity aside; It's not about ethics, or morals. It's about target demographics & their place in the market. They offer motherboard repair for $100-$200 with a 30 day warranty. Others offer motherboard repair for $400-$500 with a 1 year warranty.. or a lifetime warranty. It's all spelled out for you before you buy, and it's your choice which to choose. You made a choice, and you have to stick with it.
You are irritated that you bought a dirt cheap service and did not receive a long warranty, but that was your choice to make.
On the repair end, I have always targeted one specific demographic; those who wanted the best who would pay for it. On the supply end, back when I would sell parts as well as service, I spent some time going back and forth between targeting both demographics. The results astounded me.
I noticed that a majority of the people would choose lower quality by a large margin to save 10% on price; even when I made it very abundantly clear what the quality difference would be. As time went on, I had less and less sympathy for those who went for 50% as much quality for 10% discount.
You said that you called them to ask if people read online reviews before choosing who to use. I laughed at this because you are missing the point. The people charging $400-$500 for the same thing have to care about this, because their business is based on 5 star reviews and branding. You are trying to appeal to a $400-$500 sense of thinking within a $100-$200 repair service, but you didn't pay the $400-$500. If you are on the lower priced segment of the market, which L2 is, you do not have to care. The entire point is that they cut the warranty to offer the service at a lower price. They've already factored into their business model that it's worth a few bad reviews to get a boatload more business, which is what you get when you offer motherboard repair for $100-$200. Even with a 30 day warranty, that is a steal!
I do take that into consideration. I feel for you there.. I really do.
I have been forced to upgrade software that no longer worked on powerpcs. One still has to weigh into effect
a) the misery of dealing with new software
vs.
b) the misery of using the older, broken down hardware
In terms of getting business, yeah, it'd be easy to agree with your argument and go "yeah, if only L2 were ethical like us and offered a 1 year warranty!!"
If all i cared about were garnering business, if all I cared about were public image, that'd be the EASY thing to do.
But I don't... not one bit. I care about posting my uncensored opinion. As someone within the industry there was too much in your post that had no counter, that really needed a counter.
I'm not trying to defend L2 as the greatest business. I was trying to promote understanding of the industry from an insider's perspective. I don't like L2, I have had business with them in the past. At the same time, I feel bad watching them get all this flak for doing something that no one else is doing, and I acknowledge that. It's fair.
What I saw you say presented a very one sided argument with the standards & stereotypes(cheap chinese whatever) of what is ethical & unethical and I decided to disagree.
That's completely your right and I respect your opinion. I expressed mine which is that they operate a basic business.. you ask them to fix the eight year old ****, and they fix the eight year old ****.
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I have a collection of Marantz receivers from the original wooden box 1060, a parasound HCA-1000a, a restored set of Lansing 604e(with original drivers from the early 40s & original alcino magnets that have NOT been demagnetized by people blasting them) in storage.
Don't get it twisted.
Old can be good.
Just not with Apple motherboards. Or computers in general.
It's not about a disdain for everything that is old in favor of new, an accusation against the newer generation that I feel is kinda well deserved. We do throw away a lot of good **** in favor of new crap... I don't. Unless it's an old Apple motherboard.
They're just ****. From the 820-1881 and 820-2054 that get the checkerboard pattern over time to the 820-2249 and 820-2101 that get no video over time to the 820-2850 that runs boiling hot because of fan/sensor issues to the 820-2915 that throttles with stock cooling at 100% cpu out of the box, they're just not made to age.
Old is cool. I like old. Pry my Thiel CS 3.6 from 1991 from my cold, was-3-years-old-when-they-came-out hands. Those are cool. My marantz 1060 is cool. An obsolete Apple mainboard is not.
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I agree with you here. Buyers have every right to complain, which is why there is a department of consumer affairs in our city requiring us to warranty repairs for a minimum of 30 days.
I would take it up with them.
Personally, the only thing we warranty for 30 days are items which carry a superior warranty through the manufacturer(to encourage people to go through the manufacturer), or junk sale items like $100 PC laptops.. I think a 30 day warranty is akin to "GTFO, we don't want to see you again", but it is indeed the law that L2 is following when they offer you a 30 day warranty. A law that is supported by the DCA and the BBB if you were to complain to them.
If I were you I'd write the experience to the NYC DCA and request the law be amended. I'm not trolling here; I'm dead serious. If you feel this strongly about it, there's no reason to not take action to create change. Taking action to create change, or putting my money where my mouth is, is something that is very sacred to me. I have routinely done so when there was absolutely no positive end in sight, and I would do it again if necessary. If no one does it, no change will occur, and if you feel that strongly about it, it's your responsibility to help create change.
Thanks for your in-depth response. I appreciate your rational point-of-view. There are very few things that I would take issue with, and none of them are significant.
About the only thing you got wrong, which unfortunately launched you off on a tangent regarding price vs. quality, is that you suggested that I chose L2 Computer because they were dirt cheap (i.e., they charge only $100 - $200), while I clearly stated in my original post that I paid them over $325 up-front, with another $25 and change for UPS shipping charges. So, I did not choose them because they drastically undercut their competition. I chose them because they were closer than a company I considered in California, which I thought would mean a faster turn-around and a cheaper shipping rate. Their repair rate was similar to the California alternative, but it was not a bargain basement rate, as you incorrectly imply. Hence, I chose them expecting to get quality and reliability, not to cut corners.
As to their warranty, I do not think that they advertised their extremely short 30-day warranty prominently anywhere on the site at that time or even now. Unlike the business practices of more ethical companies, who do mention their warranty policy much more prominently and even include such an important item in a separate FAQ, L2 Computer, if I recall correctly from a very recent review of their website, do not inform you of their limited warranty until you actually begin the process of placing an order, which is rather late in the sales cycle. No doubt, by intention.
Doing so recalls the old adage, you can't be a little pregnant. So, on their website, you first select the model of computer you want repaired, then you fill out your data, then you discover how chintzy the warranty is. It's all backasswards.
At this point in time, I can't remember whether I caught that chintzy warranty in time, or not. Maybe I did, but I was too far gone into the ordering process to back out. Maybe I didn't and I foolishly assumed that their warranty was as good as their competitors' (6-months), whose websites I had been also been visiting in my on-line shopping, since their price was in the same range. I may have wrongly assumed that, since their price was equivalent, so must their warranty. I don't remember. It was a long time ago, and I went through a life-and-death trauma since then, so it is relatively trivia in the scheme of things.
The point is that I only really learned about the impact of their shoddy work and their inadequate warranty once I discovered that I had paid a lot of money and did not get what I thought I was entitled to get. That's when I got upset and I contacted them to see if they, like any good business, would set things right. They adamantly refused to negotiate and fix the problem.
In any case, it doesn't matter now. I'm not going to go back in time to wage a battle that can't be won. I'm not going to launch any kind of legal assault on them that would not be productive. I am not going to contact some civil agency to change the laws.
I am moving forward with other things in my life. I merely responded here with an in-depth report to alert others what that shop is like.
Between my report and your equally scathing review of their business practices, I think the word is out there that anyone who does business with them can never complain--after reading this thread--that they were not adequately forewarned.
Had I come across a thread like this when I was shopping around, I would have either: (1) not bothered to repair such an "old" machine, based on your remarks; or (2) use any shop but L2 Computer to repair it, if I choose to see if the computer could be salvaged or not.
As far as I'm concerned, then, this public service message is done. I achieved my purpose. Thanks for contributing.
About the only thing you got wrong, which unfortunately launched you off on a tangent regarding price vs. quality, is that you suggested that I chose L2 Computer because they were dirt cheap (i.e., they charge only $100 - $200), while I clearly stated in my original post that I paid them over $325 up-front, with another $25 and change for UPS shipping charges. So, I did not choose them because they drastically undercut their competition. I chose them because they were closer than a company I considered in California, which I thought would mean a faster turn-around and a cheaper shipping rate. Their repair rate was similar to the California alternative, but it was not a bargain basement rate, as you incorrectly imply. Hence, I chose them expecting to get quality and reliability, not to cut corners.
As to their warranty, I do not think that they advertised their extremely short 30-day warranty prominently anywhere on the site at that time or even now. Unlike the business practices of more ethical companies, who do mention their warranty policy much more prominently and even include such an important item in a separate FAQ, L2 Computer, if I recall correctly from a very recent review of their website, do not inform you of their limited warranty until you actually begin the process of placing an order, which is rather late in the sales cycle. No doubt, by intention.
Doing so recalls the old adage, you can't be a little pregnant. So, on their website, you first select the model of computer you want repaired, then you fill out your data, then you discover how chintzy the warranty is. It's all backasswards.
At this point in time, I can't remember whether I caught that chintzy warranty in time, or not. Maybe I did, but I was too far gone into the ordering process to back out. Maybe I didn't and I foolishly assumed that their warranty was as good as their competitors' (6-months), whose websites I had been also been visiting in my on-line shopping, since their price was in the same range. I may have wrongly assumed that, since their price was equivalent, so must their warranty. I don't remember. It was a long time ago, and I went through a life-and-death trauma since then, so it is relatively trivia in the scheme of things.
The point is that I only really learned about the impact of their shoddy work and their inadequate warranty once I discovered that I had paid a lot of money and did not get what I thought I was entitled to get. That's when I got upset and I contacted them to see if they, like any good business, would set things right. They adamantly refused to negotiate and fix the problem.
In any case, it doesn't matter now. I'm not going to go back in time to wage a battle that can't be won. I'm not going to launch any kind of legal assault on them that would not be productive. I am not going to contact some civil agency to change the laws.
I am moving forward with other things in my life. I merely responded here with an in-depth report to alert others what that shop is like.
Between my report and your equally scathing review of their business practices, I think the word is out there that anyone who does business with them can never complain--after reading this thread--that they were not adequately forewarned.
Had I come across a thread like this when I was shopping around, I would have either: (1) not bothered to repair such an "old" machine, based on your remarks; or (2) use any shop but L2 Computer to repair it, if I choose to see if the computer could be salvaged or not.
As far as I'm concerned, then, this public service message is done. I achieved my purpose. Thanks for contributing.
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L2 computer Inc.
I sent my 2011 Mac Book Pro to them for logic board repair. They received it on Jan 8th 2014. They never answered my email and I initiate all calls to check on status. It appears they are a real company, doing business in NYC. That's a relief to me. The last time I called them, they claimed to have replaced the AMD graphics chip set on the logic board, but it still was not working right. My fear was why did they not call me if they could not repair the board? I am worried about my computer, but also want it fixed. If a new board is the fix, I will replace it, but have lost faith in them to do the work. A week ago they told me they would get a price on board replacement. They have not called back.
I feel better after reading the thread that they are at least in business and I agree with most everything said in their support. I just am unsure whether to send them more money. How would I know I got a new board? Their communication is non existent. I think I will tell them to return the computer. I don't mind paying for their efforts to date. I live in Hi. on Maui and not a lot of options here. The Apple store here has an arrogant and rude owner.
So the bottom line is, should I order a board on line and replace it, or is there anyone trustworthy to repair it...also, is amazon or E-bay a better source?
I would never recommend this company, but I do understand what they are about. On the flip side, when consumers see ads stating a company can re-solder boards and replace chip sets it is reasonable to expect these are legitimate methods of repair for those items. There should be no such thing as a temporary fix for those items. L2 claims they replaced the chip set and re-soldered the board "the best they could". My sincere belief is that they want to sell you new replacement parts. My confusion is why they don't call right away and get on with taking my money for a new logic board. They have had my laptop since Jan 8th, 2014.
For L.A. Rossmann: anyway you can assist? i.e. pick up my computer and replace logic board. my email is Email address removed by moderator
I sent my 2011 Mac Book Pro to them for logic board repair. They received it on Jan 8th 2014. They never answered my email and I initiate all calls to check on status. It appears they are a real company, doing business in NYC. That's a relief to me. The last time I called them, they claimed to have replaced the AMD graphics chip set on the logic board, but it still was not working right. My fear was why did they not call me if they could not repair the board? I am worried about my computer, but also want it fixed. If a new board is the fix, I will replace it, but have lost faith in them to do the work. A week ago they told me they would get a price on board replacement. They have not called back.
I feel better after reading the thread that they are at least in business and I agree with most everything said in their support. I just am unsure whether to send them more money. How would I know I got a new board? Their communication is non existent. I think I will tell them to return the computer. I don't mind paying for their efforts to date. I live in Hi. on Maui and not a lot of options here. The Apple store here has an arrogant and rude owner.
So the bottom line is, should I order a board on line and replace it, or is there anyone trustworthy to repair it...also, is amazon or E-bay a better source?
I would never recommend this company, but I do understand what they are about. On the flip side, when consumers see ads stating a company can re-solder boards and replace chip sets it is reasonable to expect these are legitimate methods of repair for those items. There should be no such thing as a temporary fix for those items. L2 claims they replaced the chip set and re-soldered the board "the best they could". My sincere belief is that they want to sell you new replacement parts. My confusion is why they don't call right away and get on with taking my money for a new logic board. They have had my laptop since Jan 8th, 2014.
For L.A. Rossmann: anyway you can assist? i.e. pick up my computer and replace logic board. my email is Email address removed by moderator
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Hi,
The 820-2915 motherboard and the cooling system in the laptop it is installed into are, defective by design.
If I am repairing a defective product, it is only natural that my repair will at best, bring it back to the level it was made to work at.. which is defective by design.
Any repair - including replacing the board - is a temporary fix.
If I were you, buy a Lenovo T540p.
But you're not me.. you like Apple products, in which case, I'd say cut your losses and buy a Retina with integrated video. Most portable Apple products now use integrated video. From their new lineups, it looks like the FCC took away their discrete GPU priviledges, and rightfully so!
On the 820-2915, we do offer repair & replacement options, with warranties of 3 months and 1 year respectively. Just know, if you do anything remotely GPU intensive with the laptop - edt video and use the GPU to decode the source, play games.. it'll die, and we'll become either good friends or heated enemies from all the phone conversations, all the trips you make to our store.
It's what 820-2915 and 820-2850 boards do best - they die.
Hi,
- they die.
Thanks a lot for your comments.
I'll stick up for L2, too. I swing by there all the time for parts and tools. They also have a lot of used macbooks and do cheap repairs. They're cheap because they use a lot of used parts, do huge volume, and don't pay a whole ton.
I've always found them to be honest with me about what they're doing and what the odds are on a repair -- though sometimes it can take a little work or a second voice in there to overcome occasional language barriers.
I'm currently weighing what to do with my MBP 6.2 2.66GHz. I *just* upgraded the sucker with an SSD and 8GB RAM and what happens the day after? I spill a glass of water ALL OVER IT. I was hoping I'd get away with just a keyboard replacement, or maybe a whole top case, but when Mike's Tech Shop popped it open they found corrosion on the logic board.
I'd love to just say "screw it" and get a refurb, but even that's not in my budget right now. So, I could get a used logic board and do the work myself for about $500, or I can try taking it to one of the few shops that will even attempt logic board repair. L2 is the cheapest of them, with the least warranty.
Let me tell you something -- if I wind up taking it to them, they take a crack at it, and give it back to me in working order, I'd be over the moon. And if it terminally failed on the 32nd day after I got it back, I'd shrug and say I knew it was a possibility. When the ideal repair is a full replacement in the neighborhood of $1000, you can't expect to get the same results when you're paying $200. Period. There's some other places that charge 300-400 and offer a longer warranty, and I'm weighing those, too, although that's getting uncomfortably close to replacing the logic board myself.
Bottom line, you get what you pay for. If the business didn't deceive you, charge you for work not done or parts not provided, or refuse to honor their promises, then they did nothing wrong. It's not "caveat emptor", it's "don't complain about getting the service you were promised at the price you were promised, upset that you didn't get a $1000 service at the much lower price you were promised."
That said, I also notice from the reviews that people dealing with L2 by mail are by and large a VERY unhappy lot, whilst those working with them in person seem to fare much better. I'm not entirely surprised... If you're a bare-bones business taking on way more work than you can handle, it's a lot easier to ignore anonymous strangers who mail you things that people who know where you work
(that's not in any way an excuse for their apparently awful performance by mail).
I find it kinda funny that I spent a month defending them in this thread. I came here to admit that I was wrong!
I wound up getting ripped. They sent me $2000 of crap GPUs with nonmatching date codes, all junk.
I bought a few at a time off eBay every now and then. No special deals, just hit buy it now & paid retail anytime I needed them. Recently, to be honest, mostly out of laziness after a delay from another supplier, I bought 50 from them and wow...
Every other chip, different date code. And funny thing about the batches with the nonmatching date codes.. over half of the chips from those batches don't work.
I threw up my own rant on this here. I give people who share my profession the benefit of the doubt, especially the companies tackling work that no one else does, but yeah. I got what I deserve, I guess. I give you $2000 and you send me garbage, no more benefit of the doubt from me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ2vNGNWzTI&list=UUl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w
I wound up getting ripped.
They sent me $2000 of crap GPUs with nonmatching date codes, all junk. I bought a few at a time off eBay every now and then. No special deals, just hit buy it now & paid retail anytime I needed them. Recently, to be honest, mostly out of laziness after a delay from another supplier, I bought 50 from them and wow...
Every other chip, different date code. And funny thing about the batches with the nonmatching date codes.. over half of the chips from those batches don't work.
I threw up my own rant on this here. I give people who share my profession the benefit of the doubt, especially the companies tackling work that no one else does, but yeah. I got what I deserve, I guess. I give you $2000 and you send me garbage, no more benefit of the doubt from me. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ2vNGNWzTI&list=UUl2mFZoRqjw_ELax4Yisf6w
I disagree with you Louis, after a repair is done, the tech should do a 24 hour burn in, a computer should last longer then 5 years. A reputable business would not use alias names on Ebay to sell service, I guess in New York such business practice is the norm, and I am surprised that the government hasn't revoked their business license by what I have read about this company online.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaPgbSFenkM
I even found a video by you complaining about bad graphics chips that L2 comuter sold you.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJ2vNGNWzTI
Just my two cents,
Regards,
Jose F. Medeiros
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