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Old Dec 13, 2011, 08:11 PM   #26
Gemütlichkeit
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Airlines still won't let you use electronics during take off and landings.
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Old Dec 13, 2011, 08:55 PM   #27
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But what sucks is they have to turn it off within ten thousand feet of landing and takeoff.
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Old Dec 13, 2011, 10:18 PM   #28
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Amazing. Hope to see something saved because of the use of iPad. That would be awesome

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Quote:
Originally Posted by isaacdull View Post
But what sucks is they have to turn it off within ten thousand feet of landing and takeoff.
Haha. Thats a problem...
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 12:39 AM   #29
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I guess American can't force people to turn off their iPads now.

But your pilots are using them RIGHT NEXT TO THEW CONTROLS, how can my playing words with friends out here hurt anything?
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 02:50 AM   #30
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Paper flight plans do not run out of battery and they are very unlikely to freeze on you.
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 03:52 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theBB View Post
Paper flight plans do not run out of battery and they are very unlikely to freeze on you.
Oh, and airplanes fly without juice
(Just plug it in)
Do iPads crash
(Barely)
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 04:02 AM   #32
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An EFB solution from Jeppesen is already available for the Boeing 777 and is available for factory install. In non EFB (which includes the product below and iPads), the space is occupied by paper charts.


Oh yeah, the tiller is for ground steering.
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 04:21 AM   #33
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Aren't electronics banned during take offs and landings because they want everyone to be alert and not miss safety announcements?
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 05:03 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by farleysmaster View Post
Aren't electronics banned during take offs and landings because they want everyone to be alert and not miss safety announcements?
YES. Sleeping and looking out of the window are forbidden during that time for the same reason.
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 06:12 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hortod1 View Post
The tiller is for nose-wheel steering while on the ground during taxi.
Just to be clear to non-pilots, it's usually the big airplanes that have tillers.

Small aircraft usually steer with the rudder pedals, either via propeller thrust or linkage to the nose wheel. Other steering variations also exist, even a link to the yoke on planes trying to be like cars.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hob View Post
Isn't it crazy that it took to come along with the iPad before air crews through "we could save fuel by not carrying all this paper". I'm amazed terminals weren't in use 5 years ago for this sort of thing...!
As noted above, there have been computers and tablets in the cockpit for over a decade. That's where the FAA certification rules came from.

A big reason this makes news now is because it's Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Machoo View Post
Well I'm pretty stoked about this. As a private pilot I am using my ipad for preflight, weather, and charts. (..) Just one device strapped to your leg. My first flight with it in the cockpit is this weekend!
Hey, what are you using for a leg strap mount?
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 07:49 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by Machoo View Post
Well I'm pretty stoked about this. As a private pilot I am using my ipad for preflight, weather, and charts. It has been working very well. I have only tested it in the simulator. I wanted to make sure it works as it should and that I feel comfortable with it. After several flights I am sold big time! It saves so much time. It is more than paper savings for me, and I will still fly with paper backup so I will not even realize that savings. I am most happy about the way it is so easy to access information very quickly without juggling papers, charts, or books in the cockpit. Just one device strapped to your leg. My first flight with it in the cockpit is this weekend!
As a private pilot, you'll be operating under part 91. FAA approval is not required to use any kind of electronic EFB. The iPad was also approved for part 135 operators some time ago.
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 08:13 AM   #37
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Originally Posted by farleysmaster View Post
Aren't electronics banned during take offs and landings because they want everyone to be alert and not miss safety announcements?
It's not like anyone pays attention to those things anyways. If you fly enough, you've had the whole thing memorized.
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 09:30 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by isaacdull View Post
But what sucks is they have to turn it off within ten thousand feet of landing and takeoff.
Negative.
FAA now approves it for use in ALL PHASES of flight, from the moment they turn power on in aircraft, to when they turn it off, on all the time.


Here is a thread on all the news and discussion on iPad in airplanes.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cereal View Post
Here's a picture along with the empty space for an iPad.

Image
Space is to hold charts and plates, which happens to be just about right size for iPad.

It will have to be modified to more securely hold the iPad, and power connection.
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 09:43 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by kdarling View Post
My question is, why was American so cheap the past decade that they had to wait until a less expensive tablet came along.

Military, charter and private pilots have been using EFBs since the mid-1990s, and tablets since about 2000. (I know, because I used one back then for flight planning and charts.)

....

I would also personally note that although it's often boring to keep paper updated, something can be said for being forced to notice that something has changed about an airport you frequent.
More like too expensive to use custom EFB's
It is not just the hardware, but getting FAA approval, and finally TRAINING. All that could run into the thousands, and that is not including repairs and service (chart updates).

The COTS approach of mass market device that the pilots may already have in their house and are familiar with does have substantial savings in every metric.

....
I think it is a very silly argument that a pilot would see changes between paper charts. I never do, and cant look at old ones because they are long gone.
Conversely, and EFB *can* do this far, far better then the best pilot!
The digital plate can have the ability to hold both plates (old and new) with notes so pilot can much more easily see the changes.

After a few years of experience, one day 90% of paper will vanish from airline cockpits.
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 09:44 AM   #40
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British Airline Flybe are also to go all iPad. I believe it is currently being trialled and should be rolled out in the next few months.
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 09:48 AM   #41
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I'd hope Apple will make them pay cash, on the barrelhead:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/...7AS0T220111130

AA will screw over their creditors, suppliers, and employees with a bankruptcy filing, but they have money for a planeload of iPads? WTF? Who is the judge overseeing this?
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 01:13 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by PracticalMac View Post
More like too expensive to use custom EFB's
I'm not necessarily talking about custom EFBs. Publicly available EFB software for regular tablets has been around for at least a decade, if not longer. Heck, charter carriers have been using PCs since 1995 or so, and FedEx first deployed a COTS laptop in 1991.

Quote:
It is not just the hardware, but getting FAA approval, and finally TRAINING. All that could run into the thousands, and that is not including repairs and service (chart updates).
All of those criteria applied to the iPad as well. It had to go through the exact same certification process as any other COTS computer.

Again, the main thing "new" here is that Apple happens to be the maker.

Quote:
I think it is a very silly argument that a pilot would see changes between paper charts. I never do, and cant look at old ones because they are long gone.
Why are the old ones "long gone" when you're replacing them? And if you're not noticing changes, then you're probably not complying with the primary directive to have "all available information" before flying

Personally I found it quite handy to notice that there's a new obstacle is in a landing path. But yeah, a lot of pilots just mass replace them and depend on NOTAMs if they exist.

Quote:
Conversely, and EFB *can* do this far, far better then the best pilot!
The digital plate can have the ability to hold both plates (old and new) with notes so pilot can much more easily see the changes.
I agree, although I don't think this is being done yet.

Quote:
After a few years of experience, one day 90% of paper will vanish from airline cockpits.
Perhaps one day.

It hasn't happened so far in the 20 some years since pilots started using portable computers in the cockpit.
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 01:56 PM   #43
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Why are the old ones "long gone" when you're replacing them? And if you're not noticing changes, then you're probably not complying with the primary directive to have "all available information" before flying

Personally I found it quite handy to notice that there's a new obstacle is in a landing path. But yeah, a lot of pilots just mass replace them and depend on NOTAMs if they exist.
Most airlines (certainly the one i fly for) have the plates changed by a 3rd party company. Whenever they need updating you can land at an airport you are met by someone who quickly changes all the plates in one quick go, it can take 10mins and the old ones are gone for good. But saying that we use Jeppesen plates and at the very bottom of each page any changes are listed. So no big deal.
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 03:09 PM   #44
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"Pilots will use iPads as electronic chart and digital flight manual readers and to play Angry Birds."


There, I fixed it.
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Old Dec 14, 2011, 04:10 PM   #45
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I think you got it backwards, AA is bankrupt BECAUSE they bought iPads for everyone. HAW HAW
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Old Dec 15, 2011, 03:42 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mp0890 View Post
Great...so I can now use mine during takeoff and landing....right?
This...
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdarling View Post
Edit: I bet they added another item to their preflight checklist: make sure cockpit iPads are in Airplane Mode! No WiFi, no Bluetooth radios.
The airlines can limit the use of wifi/GSM/BT for their pilots, but going through the cabins checking that all iPads/iWhatevers are also restricted puts too much onus on the flight attendants during the pre-flight/-landing checks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alexs5 View Post
Didn't American Airlines filed for bankruptcy?.... and they can afford ipads? lol
Why do you think they filed for bankruptcy protection?
Quote:
Originally Posted by theBB View Post
Paper flight plans do not run out of battery and they are very unlikely to freeze on you.
This is what worries me!
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Old Dec 15, 2011, 08:18 AM   #47
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FAA now approves it for use in ALL PHASES of flight, from the moment they turn power on in aircraft, to when they turn it off, on all the time.
The iPad was approved that way for American Airlines, at least. It doesn't apply to any carrier that hasn't gone through its own certification process.

According to the relevant AC, it looks like each carrier has to first spend six months testing out the devices in real life usage, plus they have to certify non-interference with the aircraft models involved... among other things like crew training and observation, and perhaps getting an STC for mounting gear.

Then they still have to carry backup paper for at least a while, just in case both iPads fail. One way around that requirement is to use two different types of tablets, e.g. one iPad, one Android. That hopefully insures that both will not fail for the same software glitch at the same time. (Unless it's a global WebKit bug!)
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Old Dec 15, 2011, 08:58 AM   #48
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Do the pilots have to turn the iPad off during takeoff, landing, and taxi? Should have thought that one thru FAA
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Old Dec 15, 2011, 12:10 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by iVoid View Post
I guess American can't force people to turn off their iPads now.

But your pilots are using them RIGHT NEXT TO THEW CONTROLS, how can my playing words with friends out here hurt anything?
Because you are probably closer to the antennas than the flight crew and that's whats really important when it comes to interference? The displays in a glass cockpit are going to be well shielded; the GPS, UHF and VHF antennas -- which are spread out along the body of the plane so that they won't interfere with each other -- not so much. If you happen to be in the seat right above/below one, you could interfere and the pilots won't have any way of quickly troubleshooting the problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iSellMyiPhone View Post
Do the pilots have to turn the iPad off during takeoff, landing, and taxi? Should have thought that one thru FAA
I'm pretty sure this was covered several times in the thread. AA has FAA certification to allow the flight crew to continuously run their iPads from startup to shutdown.
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Old Dec 15, 2011, 01:09 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by kdarling View Post
The iPad was approved that way for American Airlines, at least. It doesn't apply to any carrier that hasn't gone through its own certification process.

According to the relevant AC, it looks like each carrier has to first spend six months testing out the devices in real life usage, plus they have to certify non-interference with the aircraft models involved... among other things like crew training and observation, and perhaps getting an STC for mounting gear.

Then they still have to carry backup paper for at least a while, just in case both iPads fail. One way around that requirement is to use two different types of tablets, e.g. one iPad, one Android. That hopefully insures that both will not fail for the same software glitch at the same time. (Unless it's a global WebKit bug!)
Granted there is still a blizzard of paperwork to go though (you know the old axiom about weight), but like a From 337, once approved by FAA it can be a boiler plate to apply to all same model aircraft.
Procedures too.

My FAR's is rusty, but I think the hardware options are: STC, 337, and kits sold by the aircraft maker (cant recall if those need STC or 337).
Then again if it is not a permanent installation but snaps into place somehow, none of those are required (not considered part of aircraft).

I seriously doubt any airline will test both platforms, becuase it simply means double the work, and for Android it could mean even more concerning the different flavors of OS. The highly controlled iOS environment, highly supported hardware, reputation, give iPad a big advantage.

Tablet computers, like EFB's, where in development for decades, but for many reasons neither found the sweet point of cost/performance.
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