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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:01 AM   #26
Ubik1981
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Originally Posted by i.mac View Post
Why do you care so much? What is your take from this fine?
Me as an individual, right now, nothing; as a (potential) customer, a lot.

Is that so difficult to get?
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:06 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by kurosov View Post
As a legal requirement here in the UK i never expect companies to have to advertise the 2 year warranty because everybody in the country should already know about it.
In the UK, the law gives you one year warranty... I'm not sure if the EU 2 years applies in the UK.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:17 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by northy124 View Post
In the UK, the law gives you one year warranty... I'm not sure if the EU 2 years applies in the UK.
It kinda sounds like it should do. I think AppleCare goes above and beyond the standard warranty but 12 months is what is generally thought of as the legal requirement here
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:26 AM   #29
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Solve the arguments:

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/b...ty-EU-law.html

Quote:
A little-known EU directive is making shoppers feel like they have extra ammunition to return faulty goods for up to two years. It's not quite that simple. Read our guide to see if it can help you.

There has been an increase in people using a little-known European Union directive to get retailers to refund or replace faulty goods, even after the stated guarantee periods have ended.

The EU rule allowing the return of goods up to two years after purchase is at odds with the returns policies adopted by most major shops.

However, as this is a directive is only partially adopted by the UK, its use is a grey area.

Despite this, many shops have willingly refunded items when presented with the directive and its argument, so it could potentially improve your position.

So what has happened?

Most major retailers will have a stated returns policy that complies with UK consumer law. Those interested can see the exact wording of the Sale of Goods act here, but put simply the law says that retailers must sell goods that are 'as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality'.

If a defect is detected when, or in a reasonable period of time after, the sale is made, then buyers can demand a full refund.

However, the rules get fuzzier when faults develop over time and a buyer has to return goods after possessing them for a longer period.

Under UK law, buyers in England and Wales can get a partial refund or full repair up to six years after the purchase was made (five years from discovery in Scotland). The refund should take into account how much use the customer has already had of a product. Ultimately, a county court would decide this.

However, the likelihood of getting such a refund is dramatically reduced after just six months. The reason is that for six months after the purchase, it is up to the retailer to show that a fault on an item is down to the actions or misuse of the buyer, rather than an inherent fault in the product.

After six months, the burden of proof switches to the buyer and it is they who must then show a fault is due to some inherent problem, something that can be almost impossible in all but the most straightforward cases.
http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/index/...and_warrenties

http://www.oft.gov.uk/business-advic...sogaexplained/

http://whatconsumer.co.uk/the-sale-of-goods-act/
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:28 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by SPUY767 View Post
The EU is collapsing, and this is what they spend their time with?
Yeah shame on them for looking out for their citizens.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:32 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by SPUY767 View Post
The EU is collapsing, and this is what they spend their time with?
Congrats on getting the EU and Italy mixed up, the EU did not pursue this but the Italian Gov did... also if the EU did pursue it, then good as that is what the EU is there for, it is the EU's job too.

Also it is not collapsing, why do American's seem to think this?
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:38 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by northy124 View Post
In the UK, the law gives you one year warranty... I'm not sure if the EU 2 years applies in the UK.
It does apply in the UK and I have used it against Acer when my laptop died after 13 months and they wouldn't repair it. What is more, the Sale of Good Act (UK) gives you up to 6 years depending on what is deemed reasonable.

Somebody mentioned earlier in the thread that this was "typical italian ********tism" - I disagree, if I purchase an expensive product I think it is reasonable to expect it to be free of manufacturing defects for more than 12 months. It is just a pity that more UK consumers aren't aware of this law but when companies such as PC World make 50% of their profits from overpriced extended warranties you can see why.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:41 AM   #33
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Apple will just tack on the cost to devices sold in countries that have longer warranties on their law books.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:45 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by gnasher729 View Post
And remember that AppleCare also gives you one year free support, and will cover your device in situations where it is not covered by the law.
Wrong and wrong. It isn't free, and it extends the original warranty-- it doesn't expand its provisions.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:51 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by northy124 View Post
In the UK, the law gives you one year warranty... I'm not sure if the EU 2 years applies in the UK.
Correct. The 2-year issue is not applicable in the UK.

There are far, far too many noobs who think that after watching an episode of Watchdog that they are some sort of consumer-law-warriors.

....and, they're not.

Unless you as a consumer, are prepared to take the legal route, then the retailer always wins. End of.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:52 AM   #36
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I'd really like to see AppleCare covering a total of 4 years.

But is that possible?
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:53 AM   #37
Supersonic
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tim0409 View Post
It does apply in the UK and I have used it against Acer when my laptop died after 13 months and they wouldn't repair it. What is more, the Sale of Good Act (UK) gives you up to 6 years depending on what is deemed reasonable.


..only if the fault was a known, proved fault before sale.

As per my preveious point. You're welcome to hound the retailer all you like, until you take them to court, they'll laugh at you before, during, and after that hearing.

Good luck with that BTW.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 10:58 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by northy124 View Post
In the UK, the law gives you one year warranty... I'm not sure if the EU 2 years applies in the UK.
The real question is, why isn't this clearly public knowledge? If this is the "law" in the EU, why should any company be required to make people aware, rather than the government? Isn't it their responsibility?

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by LostSoul80 View Post
I'd really like to see AppleCare covering a total of 4 years.

But is that possible?
Then buy extended warranties, or a different product. What you would like doesn't match what anyone must offer.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 11:09 AM   #39
tim0409
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Originally Posted by Supersonic View Post
..only if the fault was a known, proved fault before sale.

As per my preveious point. You're welcome to hound the retailer all you like, until you take them to court, they'll laugh at you before, during, and after that hearing.

Good luck with that BTW.
Good luck with what?

"....only if the fault was a known, proved fault before sale." - As somebody with an LLB this is absolute nonsense.


I don't really understand the second point you are trying to make - given the law is well established in this area why would a retailer "laugh at you before, during, and after that hearing"?

Please don't comment on an area you clearly have no knowledge of.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 11:16 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Kaibelf View Post
The real question is, why isn't this clearly public knowledge? If this is the "law" in the EU, why should any company be required to make people aware, rather than the government? Isn't it their responsibility
The problem is that Apple is selling people something that is effectively useless to them - they're claiming that it will give them benefits that they already have. The law views that as a false claim.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 11:16 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by gnasher729 View Post
Slow down, cowboy. In the UK, the product has to last "a reasonable time", which depends on the product. And after more than six months (if the manufacturer didn't give you a years warranty) you have to _prove_ that the fault was present when you bought the product.
That raises some interesting questions.

What exactly does this Italian/EU law cover compared to Apple Care. Because 'free assistance' can mean anything from teaching you how to do something to running a test without charging a diagnostic fee to free parts.

And this whole "has to have been broken from day one because it was a crap part" thing is pretty much the flip of how Apple Care treats things. At least in the US. So long as it's not something that broke cause you dropped it, poured water etc on it or some other user created damage they cover it for either the one year or the two/three with AC. Up to even a full unit replacement at times. Even if the whatever was working fine for the first year and a half. I myself had a power port replaced at no cost (would have been almost $1000) because after 17 months it just shorted out one day. They didn't question it other than checking for drops or water damage. Once they didn't see any of that, they shipped it off to be fixed and I had it back in 3 days. No worries

So what exactly does this 2 years get you
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 11:21 AM   #42
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Good

Apple has to abide by the rules, all the corps use cheap labor at least give me my 2 year warranty. Fair is fair.

AppleCare should be cheaper now, or extended cuz we already have rights to a 2 year warranty in the EU.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 11:23 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SPUY767
The EU is collapsing, and this is what they spend their time with?
Hey, gotta get cash somehow. Apple will pay. The Italian's will feel good about teaching Apple a lesson.

They will then purchase millions of iPhones knowing the wrong has been righted.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 11:28 AM   #44
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Right so! Apple should be fined in Germany as well!

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shrink View Post
For better or worse, Tim Cook could find $1.2 million between the cushions of the couch in the executive lounge.
It is not about the money which is a joke for Apple. After the fine they have to change course otherwise the next fine will look different.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 11:57 AM   #45
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Originally Posted by SPUY767 View Post
The EU is collapsing, and this is what they spend their time with?
Just wait until you know how deep the sh*it is in America.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 12:02 PM   #46
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And to add insult to injury…

… Apple also shies away from clarifying anywhere—except in the finest print possible—that Applecare+ for iPhone only applies in the US.

This borders on my understanding of "scam." Or am I exaggerating?
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 12:04 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by tim0409 View Post
It is just a pity that more UK consumers aren't aware of this law but when companies such as PC World make 50% of their profits from overpriced extended warranties you can see why.
That's in large part due to them selling hardware at cost, not because of the warranties.
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It is not about the money which is a joke for Apple. After the fine they have to change course otherwise the next fine will look different.
Sounds like they just have to change the wording on their warranty terms and marketing.

It would be interesting to know exactly what it says, although I don't read Italian to look it up myself. The USA Applecare is clearly spelled out that it adds 1-2 years to Apple's 1 year standard warranty. This really sounds like some Apple employee screwed up. They have to understand that every country has different laws and they can't just translate the USA warranty.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 12:09 PM   #48
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That's such BS I worked for Apple Care for 3 years and Apple fully discloses all limited and extended warranties. Italy is a bunch a mamby pamby liars.

F them.
You mean, in fine print buried deep within their arcane web servers?

Your sense of business ethics is as refined as your language.
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 12:11 PM   #49
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This is not just happening in Italy, but EU wide. There is a standard 2-year warrenty for all pc/laptops ect here.

The fine is 100% correct and could be higher.
thats not the only fine they are facing, abuses politically and economically are at large still
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Old Dec 27, 2011, 12:15 PM   #50
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They have to understand that every country has different laws and they can't just translate the USA warranty.
I am afraid this also holds true if you substitute the names of several US institutions for "they," and then substitute "rules" for "warranty."
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