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knewsom

macrumors 6502a
Jun 9, 2005
949
0
More megapixels don't help if the rest of the camera system aren't up to it. However more pixels can be extremely useful if you maintain image quality. Note that this implies that pixels don't directly impact image quality, however in the long run you are far better off having the extra pixels to work with.

[...]the ability of a camera to resolve detail is very important. This is as much an issue of optics as it is sensor technology. However the more quality information you have to work with the better your pictures and the greater your flexibility with post processing.

I never said more megapixels can't ever be beneficial - sure they can, and and I welcome them if the rest of the camera is up to snuff... but really, how many manufacturers make optics and processing that actually keep pace with their sensor resolution? Most don't. Apple has been pretty good about this, but as I said before, don't take ANYTHING for granted.

Larger cameras and there for larger optics do not assure you of higher quality. The fact of the matter is the larger the optics the harder it is to control aberrations and other issues that impact rendered images.

Bigger sensors can capture more light but that is only part of the equation. You still need a lens system that can resolve properly to take advantage of the sensors resolution.

The lack of depth of field is a problem at the extreme short focal lengths of common digital cameras.

Of course size is not an assurance of quality, and you need a whole system that can resolve an image in its entirety - that's a given. There are plenty of crappy big cameras out there as well as small ones. ...but a good larger format camera is far better than a good smaler format one. There's a reason pro photographers use full-size CCDs and CMOS sensors instead of micro four thirds.

Also, the larger the optics, the EASIER it is to control aberrations - a speck of dust on a medium format lens vs a speck of dusk on your iphone lens. Which camera has more of its image-acquiring apparatus covered by the same sized speck?

Baloney, some of the best eyes out there are on birds.

Glad you brought that up. Here's a picture of an Osprey skull.

OspreySkull.jpg


Here's a picture of a horse skull.

horse_lat.jpg


Horses are so much larger that their eyes are about the size of an osprey's head, but look how much of an osprey's head is taken up by its eye orbits - they're about as big as they can be on that little head. Clearly, size matters. If you doubt that, especially for low-light, ask an owl.

What is notable is that Apple has been able to avoid that marketing nonsense as they have dramatically improved the iPhones camera. Pixel count is a factor in those improvements, Apple just puts equal weight on other factors when integrating a camera. Call it balanced engineering if you will. As long as they continue to improve over all performance increasing pixels counts is a win.

Actually manufactures are continual linty improving what a small sensor can do. You angst is mis placed as Apple has improved the camera with every iPhone release, and likely will continue to do so. Also contrary to your statement Apple is directly selling the image quality of the iPhone as it has been highlighted many times in marketing materials.

In any event there is lots of upside potential in cell phone camera sensor technology. Very soon we should be seeing sensors built around quantipum dot technologies or other advancements that could easily double low light performance. Other technologies are also being developed to improve cell phone cameras. I suspect that your bigger is better bias isn't based on sound evaluation of the current state of the hardware nor where tech is going.

Think about this, if bigger was indeed better then how is that Apple has improved the camera in every iPhone release?

Sure, Apple has been pretty good about improving camera quality - but I'm not so sure the 4S is a better camera than the 4, in spite of a better lens and more megapixels. Also note that the iPhone's camera has remained about the same size. We should also know that Apple isn't afraid to take a different direction with things. I hope that they will use technology like this as motivation to improve the entire camera - but we really have no idea if they actually will.

My "bigger is better" philosophy with cameras comes from physics, and years of photographic experience and education.
 

wizard

macrumors 68040
May 29, 2003
3,854
571
I don't get this attitude at all!!!

Apple has improved the camera with every iPhone release. This has been born out in countless reviews and consumer experience. Why does everybody think that all of a sudden Apple will go backwards on this? It boggles the mind really.

Obviously it's a phone, not a DSLR. For many, it's also their primary camera. For me, it's my ONLY digital camera (I typically shoot film on a Nikon F100). Nobody has suggested it should compete with DSLRs. I simply don't want to see image quality decrease in favor of "newer, smaller, & more MP".
Apples track record is pretty clear here isn't it?
I realize the real-estate gain, and potential for sensor-size increases or constancy, but manufacturers could easily use this to just make sensors take up less room in devices with more megapixels. That was my point - just that this is a possibility, and it's not one I relish.
It is pretty clear their goal is to take up less space which is important for the market. You make an assumption though that that will immediately result in poorer images. Instead it appears that the goal is better images in a smaller space.

I just see an unwarranted desire to jump to conclusions in this thread. Especially considering the real improvement in cell phone camera tech over the years.
 

knewsom

macrumors 6502a
Jun 9, 2005
949
0
Apple has improved the camera with every iPhone release. This has been born out in countless reviews and consumer experience. Why does everybody think that all of a sudden Apple will go backwards on this? It boggles the mind really.


Apples track record is pretty clear here isn't it?

It is pretty clear their goal is to take up less space which is important for the market. You make an assumption though that that will immediately result in poorer images. Instead it appears that the goal is better images in a smaller space.

I just see an unwarranted desire to jump to conclusions in this thread. Especially considering the real improvement in cell phone camera tech over the years.

iPad. iPod Touch.

Remember, Apple is NOT above yanking features and sacrificing one benefit for another in their products. I'm not saying my concerns are definitely going to happen, just that this is a possibility, one that I'm concerned with, and we shouldn't just take it for granted that a smaller camera with higher megapixels is going to be better even if Apple says it is.
 

Matt-M

macrumors regular
Nov 5, 2009
123
0
Nashua, NH
Adding white light to RGB for better low light performance has been around forever. It's called LRGB imaging, where the "L" stands for Luminance. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LRGB

Sony is calling it "RGBW" just so they can put a little ™ next to it.

I hate that. It's not new, stop inventing new names for existing technology!
 

Mad-B-One

macrumors 6502a
Jun 24, 2011
789
5
San Antonio, Texas
Increasing the resolution does not necessarily result in ability to crop, since the sharpness goes down on high-resolution tiny sensors. You used to see this with the interpolated megapixels, where cameras would create larger images that didn't actually contain any more information. The problem on cell phones is that they're generally not even good for snap shots, at least in real-world, low-light situations. Sure, outdoors, on a tripod, in bright sunlight, your iPhone can take a great picture of a mountain vista. But at a birthday party, sporting event, etc, it just doesn't gather enough light to be useful.

I see your point but at 13MP, it is another ball game than a 5 or 8MP - if the monitor is - let's say - 27", the "blur" will be almost not noticed. I'm not a professional photo editor. My wife's camera is a Nikon N120 and the picture quality is satisfying. Picture size is comparable with the 12MP. As long as I don't use the magnifying glass, I won't see a differrence on the desktop - especially given that I don't have a $1000 monitor and the colors are somewhat off anyways. But also, the amount of light does not depend on the sensor but on the lens. A bigger sensor actually gets less candela per square inch because it is further away from the ideal f - just physics speaking. Theoretically, the smaller the sensor, the less distortion, or am I completely wrong? That would be fixable with dented sensors but I think right now, they are all flat. As I say, I am not a physisist, just thinking about optics and I had that in about 1997 in High School.

I realize the real-estate gain, and potential for sensor-size increases or constancy, but manufacturers could easily use this to just make sensors take up less room in devices with more megapixels. That was my point - just that this is a possibility, and it's not one I relish.

And that goes back to the trade off having a phone and not a camera. On the other side, the lens does not cost real estate because - e.g. iPhone - it is part of the back pannel. The logic board might have to be further away though... So, if Apple wants more vibrant colors (or closer to real life colors in darker light), they would have to burry the sensor deeper and put a bigger lens into the system. Depth would counter the worse distortion of a bigger lens close to the sensor. Yet again, I'm not an engeneer and just go by my understanding of physics. :cool:
 
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george-brooks

macrumors 6502a
Oct 31, 2011
732
16
Brooklyn, NY
That extra white light sensor sounds good but will this allow for higher megapixels or improved optics, or is Apple et al just going to use it to allow them to make the camera the same quality but more inconspicuous?
 

faroZ06

macrumors 68040
Apr 3, 2009
3,387
1
Go to Apple Feedback and post your request (iPod Touch "Product Enhancement").

I would imagine that when the add dual flash to the iPhone, maybe they'll put a single LED flash on the Touch?

Actually, I'll just get a no-contract iPhone :D
1. Get one.
2. Get insurance.
3. "Lose" it (sell it for $500 on eBay, that's how much they are unlocked).
4. Get another for $200 instead of the full $700 because of the insurance.
5. Repeat.
6. At one point, keep one as an iPod touch :D
 

deconstruct60

macrumors G5
Mar 10, 2009
12,309
3,902
Because a flash on the ipod touch isn't likely to sway a purchase decision over a competing media player. The iPod touch is meant to be a gateway device to the iphone.

A gateway device to entice people to buy a service that Apple doesn't provide (cell service). Doesn't seem like a good plan.

As long as Apple's competitors continue to fumble around with any sort of creditable response, the Touch won't do much because it has a substantial lead over same size devices (against other game controllers or cell-modemless devices) and some pricing pressures from the 7" tablets.


If you don't believe me, why didn't the latest touch get the A5?

Did you happen to notice that before the iPad the Touch was first to get the better processor. Now that there is a iPad and iPhone which both struggle not to fall behind demand...... why would Apple put a part they can't source fast enough into yet another device? That doesn't seem like a good plan; create even larger shortages?



It's also thinner, has a worse camera, and apple wants a lower BOM cost. Same reason it has a retina, but non IPS, display.

Thinner is a major contributor to why the camera is worse. The do want lower BOM but the major driver there is to get price segmentation while still maintaining 30-40% margins.

The screen is both a margins and part availability. There are numerous reports of limited retina displays production.
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
A gateway device to entice people to buy a service that Apple doesn't provide (cell service). Doesn't seem like a good plan.

You're looking at it the wrong way. As far as apple is concerned (or how they would like to see it in the near future), all carriers offer their device. So you're not being tied to a particular service. However, each carrier is subsidizing your purchase so that Apple makes 400 to 500 dollars more on a device that has a BOM cost less than $50 more of a device that retails for $200-$400. That's why iOS brings in so much revenue for the company, the iphone is a killer profit machine, and its users are likely to upgrade every 2 years (or less).

As long as Apple's competitors continue to fumble around with any sort of creditable response, the Touch won't do much because it has a substantial lead over same size devices (against other game controllers or cell-modemless devices) and some pricing pressures from the 7" tablets.

It persists in its current state for both reasons IMO.

Did you happen to notice that before the iPad the Touch was first to get the better processor. Now that there is a iPad and iPhone which both struggle not to fall behind demand...... why would Apple put a part they can't source fast enough into yet another device? That doesn't seem like a good plan; create even larger shortages?

There's no indication supply was an issue. 45nm/40nm processes are very mature at this point, and all the component shortages we ever hear about are displays (and sometimes NAND). No reason to think that kept the touch from getting the A5. However, the increased cost, due to a much larger die area, does make sense for the touch not getting the A5.

The screen is both a margins and part availability. There are numerous reports of limited retina displays production.

Well, we agree it's both in at least one scenario.
 

fxtech

macrumors 6502
Oct 13, 2008
417
0
People don't care about quality

It's obvious nobody cares about the quality of the camera when the first thing they do is grunge up their image and shrink it down to a postage-stamp with Instagraph or Hipstamatic.
 
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