Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > MacRumors.com News Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Feb 15, 2012, 03:07 PM   #51
SeattleMoose
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: Der Wald
Just One More Reason.....

I love my 2005 "dumb phone".
SeattleMoose is offline   2 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 03:09 PM   #52
GenesisST
macrumors 65816
 
GenesisST's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Where I live
Quote:
Originally Posted by jclardy View Post
Android's approach is terrible. It consists of showing a cryptic list of entitlements to the user all at once at the time of downloading. The user can either accept all of them or not use the app at all.

With iOS (At least with location services and notifications right now) the user is asked about a specific permission while using the app. This is much better, because it does a couple things:

1. The user will usually know the reason why an app is requesting the specific permission. On Android you haven't even downloaded the app yet, so you have no clue what you are allowing. If an app requests something right when you open it that you weren't expecting...then you know it is suspect.

2. The user can use an app even if they deny specific permissions (No location, no notifications, soon no address book and maybe others.) Some apps may use location to find local things. If a user just wants to search manually they still can even after denying location services. On Android you would have to disable your GPS in settings to use the app without it, as you have already granted location permissions.

3. Messages about what an app is doing can be more clear, as they aren't in a list with 5 other permissions.

Android's method is more secure "on paper", but the reality is that the majority of android users just click allow on every app they download without really reading through the text, as it becomes meaningless to them after doing it so many times.

Obviously it is better in terms of your address book in this case, but once Apple implements similar controls for it then it will be much better than Android's implementation.
I would actually prefer to have BOTH ways. This way I can decide NOT to install, for example, a game that requires access to my contacts or if I see way too many permissions for a simple app.

If I decide to install it anyways, then I can always block later. But please, only ask me once... No Windows Vista type thing, OK?

Cheers
__________________
Kenmore microwave, Frigidaire oven, Fisher & Paykel fridge, LG washer & Dryer and Crane toilet
GenesisST is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 03:19 PM   #53
f00f
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Yawk
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
Absolutely. Like I said, at some point you have to trust the developer. If they are found to do something like this, they should suffer the consequences.

What I don't understand is why people are outraged that Apple hasn't done something to prevent this situation sooner.
The trust is with Apple, more so than the developer, as a direct result of the walled-garden approach that Apple polices so vigilantly. They have alleviated me, the user, from caring so much about the quality & integrity of iOS apps -- because they have strict guidelines & requirements from developers that must be adhered to & passed (supposedly). If an app is in the app store then, hey, it must be trustworthy. Right? I, as the user, don't even need to know what permissions the app needs because, after all, it passed the strict submission process. The "outrage", I think, comes from when this trust -- and the trust I have with Apple is greater than the trust I have with any XYZ Developer -- is, well, violated. Apple made a rule (that perhaps only ever took the form of a contract between itself and XYZ Developer) that wasn't enforced (contracts are breached all the time) & the price paid is end-user data effectively being stolen. Apple are obligated to protect our privacy at all costs since we, the iOS end-users, have no power other than choosing to not install an app (and this would be all the power we'd ever really need -- if apps are required to advertise what permissions they need).
__________________
13" MBA mid 2012 | 27" iMac late 2012 | iPhone 5S 64GB Space Gray

Last edited by f00f; Feb 15, 2012 at 03:23 PM. Reason: typo
f00f is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 03:37 PM   #54
andiwm2003
macrumors 601
 
andiwm2003's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Boston, MA
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXSkier62 View Post
Serious question, what is there to "protect" in your address book? The name/number of your bookie? Your favorite escort service? Seriously, I really want to know what can be so scandalous in a phone book that you wouldn't want people seeing? And if there is something there, wouldn't it have been a good idea to not have it there in the first place?
what's in my phonebook that I don't want other people to know?

- my GF's contact info (we get already enough mail/email/phone calls from nutcases and stalkers that we have a dummy phone that we ignore)
- friends contact info that are CEO's and such who have public and private contact infos. they would be mightily pissed if their private info goes out.
- business partners contact info
- my lawyer
- my physicians contact info
- my shrink (I'm kidding but it is actually serious. you don't want other people to know that you see a shrink)

Honestly, can't you imagine that a person doesn't want their entire list of business clients uploaded to the servers of five different developers?
Can't you imagine that I'm worried that several of my physicians own iPhones and that developers know who their patients are? Including the birthdates, adresses and family members of those patients?
andiwm2003 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 03:50 PM   #55
BaldiMac
macrumors 604
 
BaldiMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by f00f View Post
The trust is with Apple, more so than the developer, as a direct result of the walled-garden approach that Apple polices so vigilantly. They have alleviated me, the user, from caring so much about the quality & integrity of iOS apps -- because they have strict guidelines & requirements from developers that must be adhered to & passed (supposedly). If an app is in the app store then, hey, it must be trustworthy. Right? I, as the user, don't even need to know what permissions the app needs because, after all, it passed the strict submission process. The "outrage", I think, comes from when this trust -- and the trust I have with Apple is greater than the trust I have with any XYZ Developer -- is, well, violated. Apple made a rule (that perhaps only ever took the form of a contract between itself and XYZ Developer) that wasn't enforced (contracts are breached all the time) & the price paid is end-user data effectively being stolen.
Okay, but...

Quote:
Apple are obligated to protect our privacy at all costs since we, the iOS end-users, have no power other than choosing to not install an app
This is the same power we have had for decades on Windows and Mac and Linux.

Apple found an area to improve our control of our private data based on this discovery and is going to implement it. The app that started this controversy (Path) quickly apologized for their actions and followed through with an appropriate response. This is how it is supposed to work. All is well.

To say that Apple obviously should have done this earlier is to ignore the security costs to yet another permission dialog. The more there are, the less people pay attention before they click okay. See the Android permission notice and Windows Vista as the poster children.
BaldiMac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 03:53 PM   #56
MXSkier62
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Quote:
Originally Posted by andiwm2003 View Post
what's in my phonebook that I don't want other people to know?

- my GF's contact info (we get already enough mail/email/phone calls from nutcases and stalkers that we have a dummy phone that we ignore)
- friends contact info that are CEO's and such who have public and private contact infos. they would be mightily pissed if their private info goes out.
- business partners contact info
- my lawyer
- my physicians contact info
- my shrink (I'm kidding but it is actually serious. you don't want other people to know that you see a shrink)

Honestly, can't you imagine that a person doesn't want their entire list of business clients uploaded to the servers of five different developers?
Can't you imagine that I'm worried that several of my physicians own iPhones and that developers know who their patients are? Including the birthdates, adresses and family members of those patients?
Ok, I'll give you some of those points. Business contacts could lead to a disadvantage when considering new projects etc, and the personal info for people that want to keep their private and public information separate I also understand.

Everything else, not buying it. The massive flood if information on the Internet makes it unlikely that anyone could even possibly connect the dots for relationships based solely on contact info. Heck a major problem with social networks is that there is TOO much information that they can't find easy patterns of behavior, motivation, etc.

As for not wanting people to know who your contacts are (as in who your lawyer is, your doctor) don't put that information in your address book to begin with (since why do you need it there? As a reminder who they are?) Since Facebook really took off, people (mostly younger people) have learned how to not put up specific information yet still stay involved. We know what to do and not do, and while our parents felt they needed to remind us over and over again not to tell a stranger where you live, we sorta knew that one already.

There's a tendency on the Internet to give out more information than you really need to. If someone asks you "do you know the time," the common answer is "it's 4:52" when what they were asking required only a "yes" answer. Same with technology.

And also, who thinks their importnt enough that someone would try and look through their phone book for the names of doctors or lawyers or shrinks to somehow get a leg up? Get over yourself.
__________________
13" 2011 MBA, 1.7 GHz i5, 4 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD;
iPad 2 32 GB; iPhone 4 32 GB
MXSkier62 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:01 PM   #57
swordfish5736
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belle View
Send a message via AIM to swordfish5736
This is a great idea but how many pop ups will we see at the opening of an app. Location, push notifications and now address book. Apple needs to make them one pop-up with a yes or no for each.

And also. Do social media apps really need access to your address book all the time? Maybe there should be an option for a just this once access
__________________
swordfish5736 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:03 PM   #58
BaldiMac
macrumors 604
 
BaldiMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXSkier62 View Post
Ok, I'll give you some of those points. Business contacts could lead to a disadvantage when considering new projects etc, and the personal info for people that want to keep their private and public information separate I also understand.

Everything else, not buying it. The massive flood if information on the Internet makes it unlikely that anyone could even possibly connect the dots for relationships based solely on contact info. Heck a major problem with social networks is that there is TOO much information that they can't find easy patterns of behavior, motivation, etc.

As for not wanting people to know who your contacts are (as in who your lawyer is, your doctor) don't put that information in your address book to begin with (since why do you need it there? As a reminder who they are?) Since Facebook really took off, people (mostly younger people) have learned how to not put up specific information yet still stay involved. We know what to do and not do, and while our parents felt they needed to remind us over and over again not to tell a stranger where you live, we sorta knew that one already.

There's a tendency on the Internet to give out more information than you really need to. If someone asks you "do you know the time," the common answer is "it's 4:52" when what they were asking required only a "yes" answer. Same with technology.

And also, who thinks their importnt enough that someone would try and look through their phone book for the names of doctors or lawyers or shrinks to somehow get a leg up? Get over yourself.
http://boingboing.net/2012/02/15/nor...arent-the.html

Quote:
As for not wanting people to know who your contacts are (as in who your lawyer is, your doctor) don't put that information in your address book to begin with (since why do you need it there? As a reminder who they are?)
You're kidding, right?
BaldiMac is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:04 PM   #59
Amazing Iceman
macrumors 68030
 
Amazing Iceman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Florida, U.S.A.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
Any app that is "social" in nature usually requires data from the users address book.

How is the app to find your friends ?. From your address book.
How does a chat app know who you're chatting with ?. From your address book.
How is a cooking app supposed to know who your friends are that are cooking something ?. From your address book.


The list goes on and on.

Any social app uses some aspect of the users address book whether the user knows it or not. On any OS that is using any person in your address book.
So basically this means that most if not all social apps will become crippled?
Thinking about it, even iCloud falls into this category!
__________________
17" MacBook Pro (2007) iPad Air WiFi+Cell 128 GB iPhone 5s 64 GB T-Mobile AppleTV 2
Follow @AmazingIceman for useful tech info and more (mention MacRumors).
Amazing Iceman is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:21 PM   #60
f00f
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: New Yawk
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
Okay, but...



This is the same power we have had for decades on Windows and Mac and Linux.

Apple found an area to improve our control of our private data based on this discovery and is going to implement it. The app that started this controversy (Path) quickly apologized for their actions and followed through with an appropriate response. This is how it is supposed to work. All is well.

To say that Apple obviously should have done this earlier is to ignore the security costs to yet another permission dialog. The more there are, the less people pay attention before they click okay. See the Android permission notice and Windows Vista as the poster children.
End-users have no auditing power on iOS -- with the single sole exception of being able choose what apps to install or not install. And on what do we base this choice? Reviews? Trust with an unknown developer? We don't have much to go on because the system is so dramatically dumbed down (from end-user perspective) & responsibility for policing things like privacy policy is transferred out of our control & to Apple. On all those other platforms, that we've had for decades, end-users undeniably have had much more control and much more responsibility. In iOS land, Apple has a very large percentage of that responsibility because they make the rules. They don't even need to add a new permission dialogue -- they merely need to enforce their existing rules which they are obligated to do, for the sake of our privacy. And, being Apple, I'm sure they can come up with an elegant, simple way to do it that won't be overbearing for even the most attention-deficient users out there.
__________________
13" MBA mid 2012 | 27" iMac late 2012 | iPhone 5S 64GB Space Gray

Last edited by f00f; Feb 15, 2012 at 04:23 PM. Reason: typos!
f00f is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:36 PM   #61
ghostface147
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: May 2008
They need to ask permission for everything. Camera, photo library, music.....all of it.
ghostface147 is online now   1 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:36 PM   #62
BaldiMac
macrumors 604
 
BaldiMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by f00f View Post
End-users have no auditing power on iOS -- with the single sole exception of being able choose what apps to install or not install. And on what do we base this choice? Reviews? Trust with an unknown developer? We don't have much to go on because the system is so dramatically dumbed down (from end-user perspective)
I think you are overstating the knowledge of your average PC user. The choice is based on the same things it always has been. With the exception that Apple has weeded out a huge percentage of actual malware. I would say that iOS users have more information to go on before downloading an app than your average PC user.
BaldiMac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:41 PM   #63
turbobass
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Really really great news, in fact I had been thinking of why this hadn't been done sooner upon first hearing about http://www.latimes.com/business/tech...,3106318.story

Contact books are a non-starter, and I see any non opt-in copying of that IP as straight up deception and theft. Even Facebook makes you explicitly agree to sharing graph information with apps (though ironically their app -- at least used to -- do the same thing on mobile).
turbobass is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:41 PM   #64
BiggAW
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Connecticut
They can have my address books... I'm staying on 5.0.1 with my Jailbreak.

EDIT: I have nothing to hide, so I don't care if they get my addresses. I assume Apple has access to all my data anyways, and AT&T to anything I send OTA.
__________________
MBP 15", 2,2 i7, 8GB ram, 10.7.x
500GB Samsung 840 in Optibay (Boot), 640GB HDD (storage)
Black iPhone 4S 64GB AT&T 7.0.4 JB'ed, 2GB Data Pro
SGS III, White VeriPad 3 32GB 7.0.4 JB'ed
BiggAW is offline   -1 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:47 PM   #65
BaldiMac
macrumors 604
 
BaldiMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
They can have my address books... I'm staying on 5.0.1 with my Jailbreak.

EDIT: I have nothing to hide, so I don't care if they get my addresses. I assume Apple has access to all my data anyways, and AT&T to anything I send OTA.
I hope all your contacts feel the same way.
BaldiMac is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 04:51 PM   #66
turbobass
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Los Angeles
Quote:
Originally Posted by BiggAW View Post
EDIT: I have nothing to hide, so I don't care if they get my addresses. I assume Apple has access to all my data anyways, and AT&T to anything I send OTA.
What about your boss getting contacted with contextual ads based on the other information the system is scraping from you?

What if you work with celebrities / politicians / etc? Do you trust all of the people whose hands your data is going to pass through?

"Nothing to hide" is an idiotic argument in this case.
turbobass is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 05:06 PM   #67
blackhand1001
macrumors 68030
 
blackhand1001's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbeagle View Post
Because originally there was trust (a lot LESS trust than Android, mind you). Where an app developer might want to use your contact information to, for example, allow you to play a game of scrabble with a friend by showing the friends names.

Now app developers aren't using the information for proper uses, but instead nefarious uses. Which is why Apple is stepping in and restricting the use of these APIs, just like they restricted Location services.

Android is much worse in this regard. There is a lot less security in the OS. Which makes some people happy because they can do 'more' with Android, but it also opens the whole OS up to bad apps. For example, in Android, it's possible for an app to send text messages in a background process while the user is unaware that it is happening, and thus charging their phone bill for text messages. iOS restricts what can be done in a background thread.
Your wrong actually, Android was much stricter about info apps to can access from other apps. Unless that app is given permission to do so or runs in root privileges, it cannot access those things.
__________________
Macbook 2008
HP Dv7t - 2.53 ghz, 9600m GT, WSXGA+, 120gb ssd, 250 gb 7200rpm
Core i7 3770k, 8gb ram, 2x 120gb sdd raid0, 500gb hdd, GTX 460
Moto X Dev Edition (VZW) Nexus 7
blackhand1001 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 05:13 PM   #68
BaldiMac
macrumors 604
 
BaldiMac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhand1001 View Post
Your wrong actually, Android was much stricter about info apps to can access from other apps. Unless that app is given permission to do so or runs in root privileges, it cannot access those things.
So what was he wrong about? Per his example, if I download a text messaging app and give it permission to access my address book, run in the background, and send text messages, what's to prevent what he described from happening?

Serious question.
BaldiMac is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 05:28 PM   #69
gkpm
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by blackhand1001 View Post
Your wrong actually, Android was much stricter about info apps to can access from other apps. Unless that app is given permission to do so or runs in root privileges, it cannot access those things.
Unfortunately a chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, and apps on Android can override permissions via the intents system:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11..._security_bug/

Video here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xGwTviVRcrg

This includes "turn[ing] on a recorder that collects nearby audio or phone conversations. The app is also able to send unauthorized text messages."

All without declaring these as specific permissions.
gkpm is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 05:37 PM   #70
SeaFox
macrumors 68000
 
SeaFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere Else
Quote:
"Apps that collect or transmit a user's contact data without their prior permission are in violation of our guidelines," Apple spokesman Tom Neumayr told AllThingsD
If that's true, how did all these apps get into the App Store to start with? I mean, they all had to go through the approval process from Apple to get in the App Store, and that is one of the main excuses for Apple being able to have such control over apps -- to protect users from malware and spyware they might contain.

Apple certainly doesn't hesitate to reject apps for all sorts of vague reasons. Are they completely ignoring what the apps is doing with its network access because they're too busy looking for private APIs or something else that competes with their own software products?

Now that Apple is aware of these developers breaking the rules, what action is Apple going to take against them? Will their Apps be pulled, or are they just going to get a slap on the wrist?
SeaFox is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 05:38 PM   #71
old-wiz
macrumors 604
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: West Suburban Boston Ma
So what about all the apps that uploaded the address books already? Do they have to give it up (lots of luck with that)? How do we know they are not selling the info to 3rd parties?
old-wiz is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 05:47 PM   #72
goobot
macrumors 601
 
goobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: long island NY
Quote:
Originally Posted by MXSkier62 View Post
Serious question, what is there to "protect" in your address book? The name/number of your bookie? Your favorite escort service? Seriously, I really want to know what can be so scandalous in a phone book that you wouldn't want people seeing? And if there is something there, wouldn't it have been a good idea to not have it there in the first place?
It's called people's names, phone numbers, emails, and address.
__________________
Unibody Macbook |iPad|Apple TV 2|Black iPhone 5 S⃣
goobot is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 05:53 PM   #73
Nermal
Moderator
 
Nermal's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Whakatane, New Zealand
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yvan256 View Post
I still have the disks for that somewhere... six 5.25" floppies, if I recall correctly!
Nermal is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 05:55 PM   #74
MXSkier62
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
One more thing to consider - it is absolutely NOT in the best interest of these businesses to be giving away this contact information, even if they sell it. Imagine how fast something like Twitter would implode if it was discovered that it was selling your contact book to third parties. They hold your contacts for 18 months, they could easily do that.

The reason they don't do things like this is because the company would quite simply die a very fast and public death. It would lose all value once people turned against it. For that reason, above all others, I don't ever see companies that have our contact information truly having an impact on anyone's privacy. Because if it did, you could say goodbye to that company faster than a New York minute.
__________________
13" 2011 MBA, 1.7 GHz i5, 4 GB RAM, 256 GB SSD;
iPad 2 32 GB; iPhone 4 32 GB
MXSkier62 is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Feb 15, 2012, 05:57 PM   #75
SeaFox
macrumors 68000
 
SeaFox's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Somewhere Else
Quote:
Originally Posted by old-wiz View Post
So what about all the apps that uploaded the address books already? Do they have to give it up (lots of luck with that)? How do we know they are not selling the info to 3rd parties?
Ah, yet another reason to put off buying an i-Device a little while longer until you guys are finished getting all the "privacy bugs" worked out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MXSkier62 View Post
Serious question, what is there to "protect" in your address book? The name/number of your bookie? Your favorite escort service? Seriously, I really want to know what can be so scandalous in a phone book that you wouldn't want people seeing? And if there is something there, wouldn't it have been a good idea to not have it there in the first place?
  1. It's your personal cell phone! If you aren't allowed to keep certain phone numbers in your own damn phone where are you allowed to keep them so they're convenient to you? That's like saying your shouldn't keep tax information on your own computer.
  2. You don't have any friends or family who have unlisted phone numbers? Would you wants some app slurping them up to sell them to a marketing list?
SeaFox is offline   2 Reply With Quote

Reply
MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > MacRumors.com News Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How long before apps require iOS 7? Bugeyeblue iOS 6 29 Jun 9, 2014 12:12 PM
iOS apps that require paid software on server? ohbrilliance iPhone/iPad Programming 8 Apr 22, 2014 09:35 AM
I can't download apps that require iOS 5.0 because I need to update to 7.1 rrares1996 iOS 7 17 Mar 29, 2014 04:12 AM
Apple Requires User Permission Before Apps Can Access Personal Data in iOS 6 MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 102 Jun 26, 2012 02:12 PM
Does the iOS navigation require data plan? gaanee iOS 6 9 Jun 11, 2012 03:45 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:38 PM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC