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Old Feb 17, 2012, 12:22 PM   #26
pdjudd
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Originally Posted by iRCL View Post
Here's a thought - instead of a link to a knowledge base article and a link to XQuartz project, how about a link to an *App Store version of XQuartz*. That'd be more Apple-esque
Is XQuartz distributed in the App Store even? I can't tell since my Mac is at home but if it isn't Apple probably cannot distribute it there without the owners consent.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 12:27 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by KnightWRX View Post
I guess this will be another "dumbing down" thread.

Anyone who was using X11 on OS X (myself included) never really bothered with Apple's version anyhow and went straight to XQuartz.
XQuartz is written by Apple Devs.

If you had bothered to read this: http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/wiki/DeveloperInfo

You'd realize that Apple's XQuartz adheres to Xorg and not the old X11R7.2 that X11.app was based upon.

The main developer, Jeremy Huddleston, works at Apple. Apple has welcomed patches and further advancement in their XQuartz name for X11 ala Xorg but make no mistake, the product is tested and certified by Apple.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by iRCL View Post
Here's a thought - instead of a link to a knowledge base article and a link to XQuartz project, how about a link to an *App Store version of XQuartz*. That'd be more Apple-esque

Also, the writeup doesn't mention this, but this is the exact same stance that Apple took with Flash.
http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/wiki/X112.7.0

Right there: http://xquartz.macosforge.org/downlo...artz-2.7.0.dmg
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 12:29 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post
XQuartz is written by Apple Devs.

If you had bothered to read this: http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/wiki/DeveloperInfo

You'd realize that Apple's XQuartz adheres to Xorg and not the old X11R7.2 that X11.app was based upon.

The main developer, Jeremy Huddleston, works at Apple. Apple has welcomed patches and further advancement in their XQuartz name for X11 ala Xorg but make no mistake, the product is tested and certified by Apple.
Make no mistake. XQuartz doesn't work in its present form on ML.

Don't know if I can make it plainer.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post
XQuartz is written by Apple Devs.

If you had bothered to read this: http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/wiki/DeveloperInfo

You'd realize that Apple's XQuartz adheres to Xorg and not the old X11R7.2 that X11.app was based upon.

The main developer, Jeremy Huddleston, works at Apple. Apple has welcomed patches and further advancement in their XQuartz name for X11 ala Xorg but make no mistake, the product is tested and certified by Apple.

----------



http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/wiki/X112.7.0

Right there: http://xquartz.macosforge.org/downlo...artz-2.7.0.dmg
Yep. Installed. Tested. Failed. Debugged. Failed. Next?
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 12:34 PM   #29
lunarworks
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Originally Posted by JAPrufrock View Post
Make no mistake. XQuartz doesn't work in its present form on ML.

Don't know if I can make it plainer.[COLOR="#808080"]
Good thing they have several months to fix it.

It's prerelease software. Nothing is guaranteed to work on it.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 12:35 PM   #30
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Those of us who used X11 day in and day out wanted the best of both the OS X and GNU worlds. But X11 that shipped with OS X has been pretty broken since Leopard. The open source community has been good about patching and fixing, but I think it's a great move to remove the X11 nonsense in OS X in lieu of XQuartz. This may actually make the situation much better moving forward, since there won't be multiple versions of things to sort out.

I'm not a big Lion fan, but I do think this is the right move.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 12:37 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by macduke View Post
Do you really know what you're talking about? It seems like you really don't know what you're talking about in many respects.
Is the fact that removing X11 causes various applications to break not a valid concern? I occasionally use GIMP, but according to various posters, it no longer works, even with XQuartz. Will you be buying me a similar photo editing application so I can work with my photos when 10.8 comes out?
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 12:40 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by CodeBreaker View Post
Can someone confirm that Matlab works with XQuartz?
Just for the record: The X11 that ships with Lion is already based in Xquartz. If you start it and select "About X11", you find:

XQuartz 2.6.3 (xorg-server 1.10.3)

2003-2011 Apple Inc.
2003 XFree86 Project, Inc.
2003-2011 X.org Foundation, Inc.

Now it won't ship with the OS... that's acceptable, just a bit inconvenient. The problem is that now every update has a chance of breaking it, since Apple will not test it themselves.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 01:06 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by q64ceo View Post
GIMP wont run even with Xquartz
Last time I checked, GIMP was rubbish on OS X anyway. Don't get me wrong, the Linux and Windows versions are great, and will only get better once they finally get the single-window interface implemented, but on the Mac it's always been pretty crappy (admittedly this has a lot to do with X11 dependancy rather than fundamental problems with the design of the app, but still).

I hear Pixelmator is pretty great these days, maybe you should try that?
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 01:12 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post
XQuartz is written by Apple Devs.

If you had bothered to read this: http://xquartz.macosforge.org/trac/wiki/DeveloperInfo

You'd realize that Apple's XQuartz adheres to Xorg and not the old X11R7.2 that X11.app was based upon.

The main developer, Jeremy Huddleston, works at Apple. Apple has welcomed patches and further advancement in their XQuartz name for X11 ala Xorg but make no mistake, the product is tested and certified by Apple.
I don't know why you thought I was attacking Apple and felt the need to reply in such an agressive tone.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickn View Post
Is the fact that removing X11 causes various applications to break not a valid concern? I occasionally use GIMP, but according to various posters, it no longer works, even with XQuartz. Will you be buying me a similar photo editing application so I can work with my photos when 10.8 comes out?
It will get fixed. Bugs happen.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 01:16 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by roadbloc View Post
I guess thats why the screenshot shows an Application requesting the use of X11.

Since most people don't use X11, it will reduce the install footprint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JAPrufrock View Post
Since there's no way to get the old startx methods to work anymore -- because they're just gone.

Same with several items I work with.

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This is not something they'll be fixing. I hope XQuartz manages to do something about it, but there are no guarantees. This is the kind of thing that can become orphanware in a hurry.

Apple is moving forward. I think the developers of these open source projects need to move forward also. Don't blame Apple for it. Talk to the developers. They are the ones that need to keep up with the times.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 01:19 PM   #36
RMo
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Originally Posted by godknows View Post
Stuff like this should really be optional. Not everyone uses it.
It already was optional--but I was never a big fan of Apple's X11 anyway (not that I'm a fan of any X11 on OS X in the first place, but it's nice to have--and I'm glad that I read past the first part of this headline!).
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 02:05 PM   #37
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I do use x11 but the majority of the users don't use it. Less bloat to fill many people's already small ssds.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 02:12 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by guzhogi View Post
Just remember, ML is just a beta at this point. That's the point of betas: find out what doesn't work & fix it.
It's not even a beta. It's a developer preview, so developers can adapt their programs. It's the egg to the chicken/egg problem that stuff is broken.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 02:16 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by Peace View Post
Apple is moving forward. I think the developers of these open source projects need to move forward also. Don't blame Apple for it. Talk to the developers. They are the ones that need to keep up with the times.
I wasn't blaming anyone. I don't care for X11 and don't mind it is an optional download.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 02:25 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by godknows View Post
Stuff like this should really be optional. Not everyone uses it.
Umm, it was optional. You had to click on 'customize' in the installation to enable X11 support. Plus it hardly took up much space (<500mb IIRC)
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 02:31 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Peace View Post
Apple is moving forward. I think the developers of these open source projects need to move forward also. Don't blame Apple for it. Talk to the developers. They are the ones that need to keep up with the times.
You misunderstand.

X11 predates everything in OSX, and is universal in the Linux world (again, that's why this is an issue). It was even a candidate for the OS X graphical core, though it was thankfully passed over.

This is not a problem with the "developers". This is Apple walking away from a long-standing compatibility with the *NIX world and hoping for the best.

It doesn't impact you (obviously), but it does have an impact.

Now, I will easily survive. But that doesn't mean I don't get to carp about having the rug pulled.

----------

+1

The issue for Apple is integration and development effort for a small part of their userbase. OTOH, it's a pretty stable and unaffected piece OS X, and I wish they'd kept it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rmwebs View Post
Umm, it was optional. You had to click on 'customize' in the installation to enable X11 support. Plus it hardly took up much space (<500mb IIRC)
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 02:31 PM   #42
KnightWRX
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Originally Posted by Peace View Post
Apple is moving forward. I think the developers of these open source projects need to move forward also. Don't blame Apple for it. Talk to the developers. They are the ones that need to keep up with the times.
Keep up with what times ? X11 is still very much "the times". It's a versatile network transparent display server that enables powerful servers to run client software and export their display back to client computers for display on the display server while also enabling local clients to utilize fast Shared Memory copies to achieve the same display effect through the same protocol without the overhead of a network stack.

Xorg and modern X11 servers are quite... modern and advanced.

Apple is not moving forward, Apple is just giving up on trying to reinvent the wheel, using what already exists out there (same as for Java really).
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 02:48 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by Molecule View Post
Last time I checked, GIMP was rubbish on OS X anyway. Don't get me wrong, the Linux and Windows versions are great, and will only get better once they finally get the single-window interface implemented, but on the Mac it's always been pretty crappy
The Mac version has always been just as good as the Linux version for me.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 02:52 PM   #44
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This is not a problem as long as Xquartz works by the time 10.8 is released. Apple should be careful not to alienate the academic world. The MacBook Pro has become the *nix laptop of choice for scientists, because Linux laptops are generally a faff to set up, and people like being able to run their models, Matlab, and Office all at the same time.

But, alienate these people and Apple will decimate their sales of the high-end MBPs. In the current economic climate these people are the only people (thanks to research grants) who can afford such expensive machines.

Although, whether Apple care about this community anymore, remains to be seen (still waiting for a Mac Pro update, for instance, and still wondering what I'll replace all our Xserves with once they start dying or don't support the latest OS X... can you rack mount an iMac?!).
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 03:17 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by nickn View Post
Is ML really an update? It seems like a downgrade in many respects.
Like you even know what this article is talking about.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 03:35 PM   #46
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It works

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Originally Posted by CodeBreaker View Post
Can someone confirm that Matlab works with XQuartz?
I installed both Matlab 2011b and 2012a last night on ML, using XQuartz. Both work just fine.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 04:01 PM   #47
Zorn
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Originally Posted by q64ceo View Post
THis is having an incredible negative effect upon programs in ML.

GIMP wont run even with Xquartz
CrossOver does not launch Windows programs correctly, and instead shuts down
MacPorts is useless (Not just because of X11, but because of changes to Xcode)

Yeah, there are a few bugs to be worked out
If only they had put out some kind of "developer preview" testing version of Mountain Lion instead of just shipping the final product right away. Oh, wait.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 04:21 PM   #48
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Too early to be worried...

So, the facts are:
  • Xquartz is the open source X11-compatible window server for Mac OS X
  • Xquartz is maintained by Apple-employed developers. It's an Apple-sponsored open source project.
  • The 'X11' app bundled with various OS X releases has historically been a snapshot of the Xquartz code, renamed and integrated with the Mac OS X release.
  • There was some extra 'glue' which made the Xquartz snapshot known as X11.app behave extra nice with OS X ($DISPLAY setting, etc)

So the actual change in Mountain Lion is that:
  • Apple will no longer be bundling re-labelled Xquartz versions with OS X.
  • OS X will instead prompt the user to download Xquartz when an X11-dependent application runs.

Now, clearly there's been a shift in responsibility here. The OS X team no longer take responsibility for integrating Xquartz (branded 'X11') into OS X major releases.

Rather, the Xquartz team (still Apple employees, remember) need to build up their process for producing releases independently of the OS X team. This is where the 'glue's got lost. Whatever OS X used to do for X11.app/Xquartz, Xquartz is now going to have to do for itself. From their point of view, it's almost certainly too early to start down that road since ML is still such a moving target. Hence the lack of integration in the present DP state.

I'm failing to see the malice, neglect or otherwise here. Rather, it's letting the Xquartz team control their schedule and deliver their updates independently of OS X without having to rely on people seeking out and installing Xquartz on their own.

Bear in mind also that the third-party developers will also take a little bit to adjust. They've been used to being able to test against 'the X11 that comes with <OSX_VERSION>. Instead, they'll need to test against the current release of Xquartz.

We're only about 24hrs into Mountain Lion's public history... so let's give everyone involved a chance to sort things out.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 04:38 PM   #49
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Gee, thanks, Apple, for continuing to not support legacy technologies and destroy people's data and intellectual property. Way to go...
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 04:44 PM   #50
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Gee, thanks, Apple, for continuing to not support legacy technologies and destroy people's data and intellectual property. Way to go...
If every company spent all their time building in support for outdated legacy **** that only 20 people still use, we'd end up with huge bloated OS's and more time between updates to do it all. Migrate to what's current or get left behind.

In this particular case, it's nothing but a win-win. X11 is stripped from the installation for the vast majority of users who will never touch it, and those that do want it can get the very latest version instead of Apple's two-steps-behind port.
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