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Old Feb 17, 2012, 05:06 PM   #51
nsayer
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There's exactly one thing I use X11 for: WINE.

If WINE gets a native Quartz UI, then there will be much rejoicing.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 05:08 PM   #52
lhunath
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molecule View Post
Last time I checked, GIMP was rubbish on OS X anyway.
It works just fine. There's a few minor quirks because of X11, but negligible.

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Originally Posted by Molecule View Post
I hear Pixelmator is pretty great these days, maybe you should try that?
Excuse me, but Pixelmator is a toddler's toy compared to the Gimp. You can't honestly expect to do any serious professional work in it, and its proprietary format will lock you down.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 05:12 PM   #53
Yamcha
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XQuartz still works on Mountain Lion.. I use it to run old games using Wine..
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 06:39 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by q64ceo View Post
THis is having an incredible negative effect upon programs in ML.

GIMP wont run even with Xquartz
It runs fine for tons of users. Are you experiencing a specific issue? If so please report a bug.

Quote:
CrossOver does not launch Windows programs correctly, and instead shuts down
CrossOver ships their own server and does not actually use anything from Apple's X11 except for quartz-wm. I suggest you contact Codeweavers for access to test versions of Crossover that will work on Mountain Lion.

Quote:
MacPorts is useless (Not just because of X11, but because of changes to Xcode)

Yeah, there are a few bugs to be worked out
As with most updates, MacPorts will need to adjust to this change. We're working on it, and you can follow the thread I started on macports-dev for specific information.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by JAPrufrock View Post
This isn't just a removal, where reinstallation via XQuartz fixes things all nice and neat.
Please use the latest rc version of XQuartz (currently 2.7.1_rc4). As you probably discovered, earlier versions (like 2.7.0) don't fixup some things.

Quote:
All the underlying launchd mechanisms that made the Apple X11 function so well with previous versions are gone as well. All the automatic $DISPLAY setting methods, for example, are ripped out. Installation of the XQuatrz package does nothing to fix that.
That's not true. XQuartz sets $DISPLAY for you (and always has). You need to logout and log back in to get $DISPLAY. This is mentioned on the download page and in the installer.

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Originally Posted by JAPrufrock View Post
Since there's no way to get the old startx methods to work anymore -- because they're just gone.
What do you mean? The entire startup sequence for XQuartz is based on xinit and startx. If you're having issues, please file bug reports with specific information.

Quote:
This is not something they'll be fixing. I hope XQuartz manages to do something about it, but there are no guarantees. This is the kind of thing that can become orphanware in a hurry.
About what? File bugs, and they'll get fixed in time. I can't fix bugs I don't know about

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BC2009 View Post
Bingo! There was no point in Apple shipping it since we could get the latest version via open source. Only problem here is that Apple is no longer guaranteeing that X11 will work when a new version of the OS ships.
Note that All of X11 is based off of public APIs except for a small set of "private" APIs in a library that lives at /usr/lib/libXplugin.dylib ... as long as that library is updated for future releases, it should "just work"

Quote:
Its possible for OS X to break X11 and the open source XQuartz team to have to quickly produce an update to support new operating system releases.
Yeah, but seeing as how the "open source XQuartz team" is 99% @apple.com, I think that's probably not difficult...

Quote:
Its probably not much of a concern if you wait a couple weeks after the release of a new version of OS X to upgrade. They should have any required updates available to XQuartz within a few weeks (or possibly before) release of OS X, given the availability of developer previews.
Actually versions of XQuartz that work with Mountain Lion were released well in advance of Mountain Lion. You just need to be using the rc versions of XQuartz. 2.7.1_rc4 works great with it.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CodeBreaker View Post
Can someone confirm that Matlab works with XQuartz?
Yes.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JAPrufrock View Post
Make no mistake. XQuartz doesn't work in its present form on ML.

Don't know if I can make it plainer.
File bug reports.

Quote:
Yep. Installed. Tested. Failed. Debugged. Failed. Next?
You installed the wrong version. Install 2.7.1_rc4.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nickn View Post
Is the fact that removing X11 causes various applications to break not a valid concern?
It is a valid concern. Please report problems.

Quote:
I occasionally use GIMP, but according to various posters, it no longer works, even with XQuartz. Will you be buying me a similar photo editing application so I can work with my photos when 10.8 comes out?
No, but I will fix bugs if you report them. gimp runs fine here, but I'm by no means a gimp power user.

Last edited by jeremyhu; Feb 17, 2012 at 06:51 PM.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 06:47 PM   #55
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As with anything else it can be argued both ways, regarding which one is better.

Personally due to the kind of circuit design and other work I do, XQuartz is preferred for it's more frequent updates and a very vibrant active community.

X11 is similar, thus again I say it's really a matter of personal preference.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 06:49 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by guzhogi View Post
Just remember, ML is just a beta at this point. That's the point of betas: find out what doesn't work & fix it.
Sometimes I have a feel in that Lion is also still Beta... I really miss the times when Macintosh was reliable and stable system. Now it is just a load of junk. Crashes all the time (i made a clean installation less than 3 moths ago) and the rainbow wheel is up every other minute.

If that's the way the OS X is gonna go, I see dark times ahead.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 08:03 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by Colpeas View Post
Sometimes I have a feel in that Lion is also still Beta... I really miss the times when Macintosh was reliable and stable system. Now it is just a load of junk. Crashes all the time (i made a clean installation less than 3 moths ago) and the rainbow wheel is up every other minute.

If that's the way the OS X is gonna go, I see dark times ahead.
This should be reported to the New York Times immediately!
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 08:12 PM   #58
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People are treating this as if it was GM.

File bug reports about the relevant applications.

It's Apple's job to look in to those applications and why they break. For all you know, they could have mechanisms planned to implement the missing functionality that are just buggy right now.

Apple is big in education. They know the importance of X11 support.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 08:48 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pubwvj View Post
Gee, thanks, Apple, for continuing to not support legacy technologies and destroy people's data and intellectual property. Way to go...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zorn View Post
If every company spent all their time building in support for outdated legacy **** that only 20 people still use
X11 is not legacy technology. Geez. It's just that Apple was doing a poor job of shipping it by default with OS X, with everyone needing support for it already relying on XQuartz's efforts in the matter.

It's a good thing Apple removed it and tells people to go get XQuartz.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 09:22 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Peace View Post
Apple is moving forward.
In a lossy and costly way.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 11:31 PM   #61
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Love the people who act like 10.8 was pushed out to all users publicly.

Love em.
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 11:45 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by roadbloc View Post
Since most people don't use X11, it will reduce the install footprint.
Yeah, 50 MB reduction on a 1 TB HDD. Impressive! Oh wait, not!
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 11:51 PM   #63
jw2002
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Originally Posted by jeremyhu View Post
As with most updates, MacPorts will need to adjust to this change. We're working on it, and you can follow the thread I started on macports-dev for specific information.
Speaking of macports, it has pretty much gone dormant for me ever since I downgraded from Xcode 4 back to 3.2.6 (due to the sluggishness and bugginess of 4). Is there a way to spoof macports so that it thinks it's running on Snow Leopard?
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 11:52 PM   #64
Mr. Retrofire
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Quote:
Originally Posted by guzhogi View Post
Just remember, ML is just a beta at this point. That's the point of betas: find out what doesn't work & fix it.
Here is the correct version:
Just remember, Lion is just a beta at this point. That's the point of Lion: find out what doesn't work & install a stable version of ML in 2013 (forget the summer 2012 release).
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Old Feb 17, 2012, 11:53 PM   #65
sjinsjca
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Originally Posted by Negritude View Post
It works just like the changes with Java, it won't install until you need it.

Yeah. There was all sorts of keening when Apple axed its own Java. In the end, it was not a bad move at all.
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 12:12 AM   #66
qtx43
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Originally Posted by jeremyhu View Post
...We're working on it...
Do you know if it will be an official Apple app on the MacApp store (if that's even feasible with sandboxing, if Apple applies that rule to themselves), or if you will be distributing it with a developer certificate, or will you pretty much install it like you do now, or...?
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 02:07 AM   #67
Dainin
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Originally Posted by jeremyhu View Post
...Didn't want to quote whole thing to I'll settle for "Mass pwnage to all the haters." ...
Am I the only one who was overjoyed by Jeremyhu showing up and completely owning everyone complaining about issues?

You sir rock.
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 05:45 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Dainin View Post
Am I the only one who was overjoyed by Jeremyhu showing up and completely owning everyone complaining about issues?

You sir rock.
What he said!

Such a refreshing change to read a post by someone who actually knows what they are talking about!
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 07:22 AM   #69
Negritude
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Originally Posted by Shagrat View Post
Such a refreshing change to read a post by someone who actually knows what they are talking about!
Amen! It really scares me sometimes just how ignorant and fearful so many Apple users are.

I love Apple products, but I wonder sometimes about the culture and community.
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 07:47 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Retrofire View Post
Yeah, 50 MB reduction on a 1 TB HDD. Impressive! Oh wait, not!

On a 64GB SSD, everything counts. Are you really that annoyed that X11 has been put on optional download? It really is a non-issue. True, Rosetta was ditched one OS after being put on optional download, but no-one is forcing you to upgrade. I'm still on Snow Leopard as I don't like all the iOS stuff on my computer (or Mission Control).
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 08:31 AM   #71
Molecule
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Originally Posted by lhunath View Post
It works just fine. There's a few minor quirks because of X11, but negligible.
Like I said, it's those X11 quirks that make it unusable on the Mac for me, namely having to click on a window - such as the toolbox - and then click on the tool you want, then click back on the main window and then click where you want to use said tool. That doubles the amount of mouse clicks needed to perform an operation. It also takes a million years to launch, because of the need to launch X11 first. And it feels somewhat sluggish (or at least it did back when I was still using it), again largely due to the fact that it needs to have X11 running on top of OS X, eating up valuable memory and CPU cycles.

If they made a fully-native OS X version of GIMP, sans-X11 dependency, it would be fantastic. But in absence of that it's useless for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lhunath View Post
Excuse me, but Pixelmator is a toddler's toy compared to the Gimp. You can't honestly expect to do any serious professional work in it, and its proprietary format will lock you down.
If you need that kind of power then just get Photoshop. Besides, does anyone really do "serious professional work" with GIMP? This is not to say that it isn't powerful, but I doubt very many pros use it.
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 08:36 AM   #72
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As of right now, there is nothing I despise more than Mountain Lion.

There's hardly any change from Lion, and even the new stuff is not worth the trouble IMO.
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 10:18 AM   #73
jeremiah256
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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9A405 Safari/7534.48.3)

Most were probably non-power users who don't understand the development - release cycle, but yeah, there were a few outright haters posting.
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 10:31 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by ozaz View Post
I'm curious - what are the most useful x11 applications?
The only ones I've used are Inkscape and GIMP

Have created a thread for that specific question here:
http://forums.macrumors.com/showthread.php?t=1325628
IIRC Matlab uses X11 in combination with Java - I'm sure there are a few others out there which are specialist and available on UNIX thus making it available on Mac easier to the presence of X11 support.
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Old Feb 18, 2012, 11:03 AM   #75
ozaz
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IIRC Matlab uses X11 in combination with Java - I'm sure there are a few others out there which are specialist and available on UNIX thus making it available on Mac easier to the presence of X11 support.
The current version of Matlab (2011b) does not seem to use X11, but earlier versions did

http://forums.macrumors.com/showthre...2#post14344372
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