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Old Feb 19, 2012, 12:06 PM   #101
Bug-Creator
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Originally Posted by Mr. Gates View Post
But what YOU may not realize is that Apple IS an American Company
They sure got theit headquarters over there, but even that could be changed on a wimp if someone felt the need.....

The only 2 ways to make companies make more products in the USA is either making the USA more attractive (read lowering wages) or making producing in China less attractive (read import taxes or forcing the RIM up to the $).

1st one would result in social unrest (I mean cutting minimum wages down to a $ or 2 sure won't get applause by the masses) the 2nd one would result in a massive trade-war (where China might proove to have the sharper weapons).

And no, as I German I don't care very much wether something is made in the USA, China or Czech Repuplic ....
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Old Feb 19, 2012, 02:20 PM   #102
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But what YOU may not realize is that Apple IS an American Company and used to make all of their products here in the US.
I thought most of the stuff was built in Cork, Ireland. Or in Mexico. Mac production left the USA long before it went to China.

BTW. It's Foxconn, not Foxcon. Foxcon is a US news station.
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 08:43 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by Dobiewonkanobie View Post
...Here's another way of looking at it. From your point of view, if your neighbor beats his kids, and you know it, it's okay because its not your house or on your property. Is that clearer?
I don't think your analogy is accurate, probably more like "your neighbor forces his children to work five hours after school every day." While many won't agree I doubt anyone would say it's illegal or inhumane. The situation in China is different and maybe I underestimated the human rights violations but I equally dislike that Americans (of which I'm one) always try to impose our standards on others like we're better.

If you are right, and I have no reason to think you're not, then some working condition improvements should be requested by Apple or FoxConn would risk losing Apple as a customer. I do not think we should concerned about anything other than ensuring basic human rights are applied but I also think this is a slippery slope.

Most countried don't work as many hours as Americans do and they get a lot of perks we do not get so they could make the argument we work too much. Of course we'd ignore them but we do work a lot...

Good points, I condede I wasn't 100% correct, but I think we need to be careful.
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 10:23 AM   #104
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Something that is overlooked in the whole apple/Foxconn news is that Foxconn is THE largest electronic component maker in the world. Their products are in just about everything that has a circuit board no matter what brand or what country. Your car's electronics, your tv, radio, microwave, computer, phone, Xbox, wii, ps3, whatever.
So why is Apple the bad guy for using the same manufacturer as other brand name companies such as Dell, Sony, Microsoft, Samsung, HP, etc? While Foxconn is Apple's biggest supplier, Apple is NOT their only customer, and although they welcome Apple's business, they would still function just the same if Apple never existed.
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Old Feb 23, 2012, 05:57 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by Dobiewonkanobie View Post
I think the problem here is that we believe they are not meeting minimal standard of compassion for fellow humans. Sweden probably couldn't argue that we overwork or don't pay them enough.
Speaking as a Chinese person, it's just a different work ethic. Many Asians I know in the US, work longer than 14 hours/6 days a week. Not because they are poor, just because they are hardworking. Would they be happier if they worked less? Possibly but this is just a different cultural mindset and they can work however long they want.

Ironically, US is one of the hardest working countries in the world and one of the most overworked.

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Originally Posted by Dobiewonkanobie View Post
And to my knowledge GM isn't housing employees 20 to a dorm room. And last I checked there weren't suicide nets on US factories. I haven't heard of mass suicide threats either.
Foxconn had 1.7 suicides per 100,000 workers.
United States had 11.3 suicides per 100,000 people.
The Bahamas (which has one of the lowest suicide rates anywhere in the world) is at 1.2 suicides per 100,000.

Suicide is one of the leading causes of death in the US.

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Originally Posted by Dobiewonkanobie View Post
And btw, China is currently suppressing Tibetan people, culture and religion, and they are burning themselves alive because of it. Is that the kind of country you want to leave to its own devices?
China is not doing this, nor the Chinese people. It is the communist party of China, which has no relevance in this discussion. Btw, the US government is currently suppressing people in the Middle East, culture and religion, and they are burning themselves alive because of it.

I'm an American and love the country but you seem to suffer from ego-centric thinking. Can your perspective be any more narrow and close minded?

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Originally Posted by Dobiewonkanobie View Post
This isn't about expectations, its about basic human rights and dignity. And China has a poor track record in this area, no thanks to American practice of exploitation of other cultures.

Edit:
Here's another way of looking at it. From your point of view, if your neighbor beats his kids, and you know it, it's okay because its not your house or on your property. Is that clearer?
Here's another way of looking at it. You are too busy looking at your neighbor that you cannot see that the same thing is happening in your house.

High suicide rates? Overworked people who can afford increasingly less? A government that oppresses other cultures? Sounds like the US to me.

EDIT: Many cultures still believe in corporal punishment. I certainly don't but I also don't impose MY moral values on other people. A couple generations ago, most children were spanked, and our grandpas are not violent lunatics because of it.

Last edited by drjsway; Feb 23, 2012 at 06:09 PM.
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Old Feb 28, 2012, 07:57 PM   #106
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drjsway View Post
Speaking as a Chinese person, it's just a different work ethic. Many Asians I know in the US, work longer than 14 hours/6 days a week. Not because they are poor, just because they are hardworking. Would they be happier if they worked less? Possibly but this is just a different cultural mindset and they can work however long they want.

Ironically, US is one of the hardest working countries in the world and one of the most overworked.
The difference being here, I'd like to think, it is more optional. There it seems they have less fewer options for recourse.



Quote:
Originally Posted by drjsway View Post
Foxconn had 1.7 suicides per 100,000 workers.
United States had 11.3 suicides per 100,000 people.
The Bahamas (which has one of the lowest suicide rates anywhere in the world) is at 1.2 suicides per 100,000.

Suicide is one of the leading causes of death in the US.
You're comparing national numbers to one company, that's a SJ line of crap. Look at nation to nation and (depending on which numbers you adhere to) you'll see that China actually has double the rate of the US. And I'd be curious to see a single company in the US that has a rate as high.


Quote:
Originally Posted by drjsway View Post
China is not doing this, nor the Chinese people. It is the communist party of China, which has no relevance in this discussion. Btw, the US government is currently suppressing people in the Middle East, culture and religion, and they are burning themselves alive because of it.
My point was to show that they have a history of a mentality showing lack of compassion and empathy for the human race within their own borders. (Although I challenge their claim of Tibet, but that's another argument)


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Originally Posted by drjsway View Post
Here's another way of looking at it. You are too busy looking at your neighbor that you cannot see that the same thing is happening in your house.
I would agree this is somewhat true.
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