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Old Feb 25, 2012, 02:52 AM   #126
Yebubbleman
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Originally Posted by KingJosh View Post
yes but the support is now ending for optical hence why Apple products have already started losing the optical bay and now the next thing to go is USB hence thunderbolt and the App store is doing great so put all those together and what do you get. Apple moves faster than the competitors too. XP support because it is MS not Apple. If you want to have a more faded line of transition you will have to go to MS. Apple always pushes hard for new tech and pushes out old tech relatively as hard
Support isn't ending for the optical drive. Hence why the developer preview of Mountain Lion still has a system preferences pane on what to do when an OPTICAL DISC is inserted. If support for this were gone, this System Preferences pane would be too. The optical drive is only really going away on the Mac mini, where it likely won't be missed as most Mac mini customers don't actually do a whole lot of optical disc related tasks whereas a much larger demographic of iMac, MacBook Pro, and Mac Pro users do. That and given Apple's need to keep the mini...well...mini, you can't fit two hard drives and an optical drive in that enclosure. The optical drive is touted as a feature on the current generation of MacBook Pros, which makes sense as MacBook Pros are higher-up on the Mac food chain than either the Mac mini or the MacBook Air. Similarly, people have made the argument that the Ethernet port is also on the extinction list, when this couldn't be further from the truth; it might not be on consumer machines, but contrart to popular belief, Apple's customers aren't all consumers.

As for the success of the Mac App Store, wake me up when every Adobe Creative Suite title is there. Wake me up when every Microsoft Mac app is there. Wake me up when I can't find Apple software still being put out on DVD; then we'll talk about how the future is here.

As for XP, Microsoft maintained support because its customers demanded it. Similarly, if Apple wants any kind of foothold in any sort of business market (and believe me, they do), they will factor in industries that need a stand-alone OS restore media, factor in industries that still rely on the optical drive, and factor in common cross-platform technologies that rely on things that this community foolishly considers obsolete like Ethernet.

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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
If that's the actual problem that someone is looking to avoid, it seems like it would be a good idea for them to create a bootable backup and keep it up to date. I'd recommend it no matter what your bandwidth is.
Oh, absolutely. I've burnt a DVD for every Mac App Store release of Lion via the InstallESD.dmg image (10.7.0, 10.7.1, 10.7.2, and 10.7.3) and I have an 8GB SanDisk USB drive that I bought on Amazon for $5 on which I always keep the latest InstallESD.dmg image imaged. That said, not everyone has the broadband I have, or the know-how to do that. It's also not like Apple officially supports the InstallESD.dmg method anyway. Sure the ACSP 10.7 training material (OS X Support Essentials) glosses over it, and hell, even Macworld has reported on it, but it's still not an officially sanctioned means of doing it.

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Originally Posted by JediZenMaster View Post
When it comes to tech when has the wants of the vocal minority ever outshined the majority?

The minority also complained about the end of floppy disks, Analog TV, E-Books and such. All i'm saying is that where there are large swaths of mac users there are broadband options. I mean unless we are talking about a tiny group of users on some cove in the maldives
The floppy disk drive was discontinued long after Mac OS shifted from shipping on floppies to shipping on CDs. Same with the rest of the software industry, same with the rest of the media industry. CD burners were starting to become commonplace and even then, there were things like Zip Drives and LS-120 drives that directly replaced every function that the floppy disk ever performed on the Mac. In contrast, USB drives and download-only services still don't fill many needs serviced by optical media. Apple didn't discontinue the floppy because only a small minority would miss it, they did it because better alternatives were out there. In this case, I don't think you can argue that an OS that requires a 4GB download prior to installation beats a physical installation medium on which the OS is ready for installation out of the box. Does it work? Yes, enough for them to not be as worried about the MacBook Air not having an ODD as they probably were when it first came out. Yes, enough for them to not be worried about their low-end customers complaining about it not being on the Mac mini. No, not enough to stop shipping a physical installation medium altogether. No, not enough to remove it from every other Mac. Yes, this stuff is the future. No, the future isn't here yet.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 12:13 PM   #127
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Support isn't ending for the optical drive..
You know Adobe and MS do digital downloads right? Wake up time. You know that they have to include support for dvd drive because most of the current macs which have an optical drive will be able to update to mountain lion. wake up wake up wake up.

edit: I notice you mainly use a PC. No wonder we are having this conversation.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 12:59 PM   #128
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You know Adobe and MS do digital downloads right? Wake up time. You know that they have to include support for dvd drive because most of the current macs which have an optical drive will be able to update to mountain lion. wake up wake up wake up.

edit: I notice you mainly use a PC. No wonder we are having this conversation.
I use my PC for gaming only. I also have zero need for an optical drive on it; I only used it for installing Windows 7, drivers, and Office 2003; but for $16 and zero cost to convenience for me, I figured that there was no reason NOT to have it. This is in sharp contrast to my Mac mini where I'm routinely frustrated at the lack of an optical drive (nevermind that my machine was intended by Apple to be a server). Plus my PC is currently in storage making my Mac the only computer I've been using for months now. Way to make incorrect assumptions.

MS and Adobe do digital downloads, indeed. Have you ever done it before? Because if you had, you'd know that it's a royal pain in the ass to deal with as their respective digital locker systems (for the product keys and activation) is terrible and nowhere near as convenient as having a box with a disc and a code printed on the jewel case. When digital downloads become more convenient than optical media, then I will hear your arguments on how the time has come for all optical media to disappear. Until then, HOLD YOUR BREATH, BUDDY!
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 01:25 PM   #129
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I use my PC for gaming only. I also have zero need for an optical drive on it; I only used it for installing Windows 7, drivers, and Office 2003; but for $16 and zero cost to convenience for me, I figured that there was no reason NOT to have it. This is in sharp contrast to my Mac mini where I'm routinely frustrated at the lack of an optical drive (nevermind that my machine was intended by Apple to be a server). Plus my PC is currently in storage making my Mac the only computer I've been using for months now. Way to make incorrect assumptions.

MS and Adobe do digital downloads, indeed. Have you ever done it before? Because if you had, you'd know that it's a royal pain in the ass to deal with as their respective digital locker systems (for the product keys and activation) is terrible and nowhere near as convenient as having a box with a disc and a code printed on the jewel case. When digital downloads become more convenient than optical media, then I will hear your arguments on how the time has come for all optical media to disappear. Until then, HOLD YOUR BREATH, BUDDY!
digital downloads are more popular by far these days lol. Yes I have the design premium suite from Adobe via digital and had no issues whatsoever. There is a little thing on it called activate using internet. One click of a button and done. Way too many assumptions? I made one assumption and it was going by your signature so... you should just stop replying now because obviously you will never see sense in the way the rest of us view the topic so there is no sense in wasting time typing. I wish you the best of luck with your optical endeavours though.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 02:15 PM   #130
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Originally Posted by KingJosh View Post
digital downloads are more popular by far these days lol.
Cite figures, please. Otherwise, I can't take your point seriously.

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Yes I have the design premium suite from Adobe via digital and had no issues whatsoever. There is a little thing on it called activate using internet. One click of a button and done. Way too many assumptions? I made one assumption and it was going by your signature so... you should just stop replying now because obviously you will never see sense in the way the rest of us view the topic so there is no sense in wasting time typing. I wish you the best of luck with your optical endeavours though.
You clearly haven't had to RE-INSTALL your Adobe software then because that's the headache I'm referring to.

Also, you should accept that others be they minority or not have differing opinions from you, otherwise people will think that you are a jerk and not like you. Just a friendly pro-tip.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 02:47 PM   #131
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Originally Posted by Yebubbleman View Post
Cite figures, please. Otherwise, I can't take your point seriously.
Have you seen the latest figures for sales from the Mac App Store? Also to take it a step further sales for things like digital downloads of music, Ebooks, Movies, Steam

If digital downloads were doing so terrible then that's news to me.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 02:49 PM   #132
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Originally Posted by JediZenMaster View Post
Have you seen the latest figures for sales from the Mac App Store? Also to take it a step further sales for things like digital downloads of music, Ebooks, Movies, Steam

If digital downloads were doing so terrible then that's news to me.
Latest sales figures for the Mac App Store don't show me the sales figures as compared to all software retailers. Also, it's not like a majority of the apps on the Mac App Store aren't ports of iOS apps.

I never said that digital downloads were doing terribly, I just wanted KingWhatshisface to back up his claim.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 02:54 PM   #133
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If that's the actual problem that someone is looking to avoid, it seems like it would be a good idea for them to create a bootable backup and keep it up to date. I'd recommend it no matter what your bandwidth is.
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Originally Posted by Yebubbleman View Post
Oh, absolutely. I've burnt a DVD for every Mac App Store release of Lion via the InstallESD.dmg image (10.7.0, 10.7.1, 10.7.2, and 10.7.3) and I have an 8GB SanDisk USB drive that I bought on Amazon for $5 on which I always keep the latest InstallESD.dmg image imaged. That said, not everyone has the broadband I have, or the know-how to do that. It's also not like Apple officially supports the InstallESD.dmg method anyway. Sure the ACSP 10.7 training material (OS X Support Essentials) glosses over it, and hell, even Macworld has reported on it, but it's still not an officially sanctioned means of doing it.
You didn't seem to understand what I wrote. Creating a bootable backup of your hard drive is a simple procedure. A number of backup programs handle it with minimal user interaction. It has nothing to do with InstallESD.dmg or official Apple support.

You're arguments all amount to an exaggeration of the problems that users with only dialup access face. For the most part, it involves downloading a 3.5 GB file one time. Compared to the time it takes to download system updates that can be 1 GB or more this isn't a lot to ask.

If you don't have broadband access, you can take responsibility for your own situation and maintain good backups. Then you won't have to download the entire OS again just because of a hard drive problem.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 03:09 PM   #134
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You didn't actually read what I wrote.
My apologies, I thought you were talking about backing up the OS, not a user's drive.

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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
Creating a bootable backup of your hard drive is a simple procedure. A number of backup programs handle it with minimal user interaction. It has nothing to do with InstallESD.dmg or official Apple support.
Time Machine still requires a download-induced reinstallation of Lion in order to perform a restoration. Sure, Carbon Copy Cloner doesn't, but how nice of Apple to offload responsibility for maintaining a bootable and download-free means of getting to the desktop (in the event of a disaster) to third parties. And where are the computer-illiterate masses going to find out about these back-up solutions?

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You're arguments all amount to an exaggeration of the problems that users with only dialup access face. For the most part, it involves downloading a 3.5 GB file one time. Compared to the time it takes to download system updates that can be 1 GB or more this isn't a lot to ask.
People with dial-up still exist. People with dial-up using a modern day Mac do exist. I'm not saying that they make up a majority, and I'm not saying that I'm one of them (because I'm actually NOT one of them). Trust me; I've spent more of my professional life dealing with these people than I'm even happy to admit. I'm saying that, for them, not having a simple disc to insert or a thumb drive to connect will mean a major annoyance when it comes time to redo their OS. Also note, you can get by and still use your computer without downloading 1GB combo updates. You can't without having the base OS. That's the crucial difference that a lot seem to miss here.

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If you don't have broadband access, you can take responsibility for your own situation and maintain good backups. Then you won't have to download the entire OS again just because of a hard drive problem.
Most people who don't have broadband access don't know what a back-up even is. While I agree that it should be their responsibility to figure that kind of stuff out (let alone figure out how to make a bootable download-free Lion installer drive/disc), they won't, and when they invoke Apple's Recovery HD, they will find that they can't reload the OS because their dial-up preferences can't even be initiated when booted to Recovery HD. Sure, those of them running Mac laptops will just drive to the nearest Starbucks and be on their way, but those running Mac minis, iMacs, and Mac Pros (and yes, people in the boonies do use those machines) will be SOL. A minority, yes, but it makes for a poor customer experience and Apple bends over backwards to ensure that those don't happen.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 03:22 PM   #135
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Time Machine still requires a download-induced reinstallation of Lion in order to perform a restoration.
Which is why I suggested a bootable backup.

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Sure, Carbon Copy Cloner doesn't, but how nice of Apple to offload responsibility for maintaining a bootable and download-free means of getting to the desktop (in the event of a disaster) to third parties.
What's wrong with offloading a feature required by a minority to third parties?

Quote:
And where are the computer-illiterate masses going to find out about these back-up solutions?
Same place they've found out how to backup their OS for the last couple decades.

Quote:
People with dial-up still exist. People with dial-up using a modern day Mac do exist. I'm not saying that they make up a majority, and I'm not saying that I'm one of them (because I'm actually NOT one of them). Trust me; I've spent more of my professional life dealing with these people than I'm even happy to admit. I'm saying that, for them, not having a simple disc to insert or a thumb drive to connect will mean a major annoyance when it comes time to redo their OS. Also note, you can get by and still use your computer without downloading 1GB combo updates. You can't without having the base OS. That's the crucial difference that a lot seem to miss here.
Not having broadband is a major annoyance for those people.

Quote:
Most people who don't have broadband access don't know what a back-up even is. While I agree that it should be their responsibility to figure that kind of stuff out (let alone figure out how to make a bootable download-free Lion installer drive/disc), they won't, and when they invoke Apple's Recovery HD, they will find that they can't reload the OS because their dial-up preferences can't even be initiated when booted to Recovery HD. Sure, those of them running Mac laptops will just drive to the nearest Starbucks and be on their way, but those running Mac minis, iMacs, and Mac Pros (and yes, people in the boonies do use those machines) will be SOL. A minority, yes, but it makes for a poor customer experience and Apple bends over backwards to ensure that those don't happen.
A lack of broadband is a poor experience period. The people that I know (and provide computer support to) on dialup have learned to deal with it. It involves waiting and good backup.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 03:48 PM   #136
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Which is why I suggested a bootable backup.
Which most people don't know how to do. Also, people were never dependent on a bootable back-up before. Why should it be a necessity to get up and running to a desktop environment for anyone?



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What's wrong with offloading a feature required by a minority to third parties?
Because it offers a poor user experience and Apple is not about poor user experience as far as everything on its end is concerned?

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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
Same place they've found out how to backup their OS for the last couple decades.
Again, you assume that most people stuck with dial-up even knew where to do that to begin with. Now tell them that they have to otherwise their computer is an expensive paperweight in the event of a disaster and see how happy they are about it.

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Not having broadband is a major annoyance for those people.
Right, but it's not like they have a choice in the matter. Most would rather not have dial-up ever again and have broadband in its place.

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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
A lack of broadband is a poor experience period. The people that I know (and provide computer support to) on dialup have learned to deal with it. It involves waiting and good backup.
Again, most people that I've had to service who are stuck with dial-up don't even know what an external hard drive is or why they should have to back up their stuff. If this hasn't been your experience, then I'm truly happy to hear it as it means that computer illiteracy is lessening in the world.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 04:00 PM   #137
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Which most people don't know how to do. Also, people were never dependent on a bootable back-up before. Why should it be a necessity to get up and running to a desktop environment for anyone?





Because it offers a poor user experience and Apple is not about poor user experience as far as everything on its end is concerned?



Again, you assume that most people stuck with dial-up even knew where to do that to begin with. Now tell them that they have to otherwise their computer is an expensive paperweight in the event of a disaster and see how happy they are about it.



Right, but it's not like they have a choice in the matter. Most would rather not have dial-up ever again and have broadband in its place.



Again, most people that I've had to service who are stuck with dial-up don't even know what an external hard drive is or why they should have to back up their stuff. If this hasn't been your experience, then I'm truly happy to hear it as it means that computer illiteracy is lessening in the world.
Wow. I can see why other people in this thread have gotten frustrated. I have no idea what the point of your argument is. You just have to assume that there are a significant number of people with desktop macs on dial up that don't know how to backup their hard drive, but want to stay up to date on their OS, but don't stay up to date on point releases, and regularly have to reinstall their OS, but don't have problems with their hard drive, and are comfortable reinstalling their OS, but don't care about their own data.
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 04:21 PM   #138
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Wow. I can see why other people in this thread have gotten frustrated. I have no idea what the point of your argument is.
The point of my argument is insanely simple; people who don't have the luxury of broadband are not going to be happy with having to jump through additional hoops to get their computers up and running again. I don't know what about that is so hard to understand.

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You just have to assume that there are a significant number of people with desktop macs on dial up that don't know how to backup their hard drive, but want to stay up to date on their OS, but don't stay up to date on point releases, and regularly have to reinstall their OS, but don't have problems with their hard drive, and are comfortable reinstalling their OS, but don't care about their own data.
Apple provides this thing, it's a small paperback booklet. It's called the "User's Manual". On Macs that shipped with Snow Leopard and earlier, mention is made of this thing called "Restore Media" that you use in the event of a "problem". On Macs that shipped with Lion and later, mention is made of this thing called "Lion Internet Recovery" that you similarly use in the event of a "problem". This is broken down in easy-to-under-stand-if-you-don't-know-jack-about-computers-terms. Nowhere in there is the section on how to make a bootable back-up of your system so that if you don't have broadband, you can get back to where you were in a timely fashion, let alone at all.

Most people don't keep their computers up to date with the latest point releases of Mac OS X. I'm sorry, I wish they would, you probably wish they would too, but they don't. Incidentally, the latest point release isn't required to boot to a desktop environment. Most people don't back up their data. And yes, those same computer illiterate people will buy and install the latest major release of Mac OS X because just about anything these days that Apple releases will incite customer interest, even before they know what the hell it is. Case in point, all the zillions of people that asked me if they should get an iPad when it first came out and before any of them even knew what it was or what it did. So, yeah, I make those assumptions because IT ACTUALLY HAPPENS!
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Old Feb 25, 2012, 04:44 PM   #139
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The point of my argument is insanely simple; people who don't have the luxury of broadband are not going to be happy with having to jump through additional hoops to get their computers up and running again. I don't know what about that is so hard to understand.
If that was your point, than it's not hard to understand. Obvious, even. The problem is that you have been arguing a whole bunch of different tangents from that argument. Every time someone provides a solution to one of your concerns, you throw in another "What if?"
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Old Feb 26, 2012, 03:56 AM   #140
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Hi, I'm from the UK.

Over here, our average downspeed is currently 0.5mbps. Yeah, that's the whole country.

Downloading Lion is a pain in the ass unless you live in a big city over here.
You're a bit out of date there. Average is about 4Mbps (the upper case M is mega btw) now. The areas with BT Infinity (50Mbps) and Virgin Media have pushed that up. That includes a lot of towns, not just big cities (admittedly out in the sticks is still an issue but it is being worked on). This is plenty fast enough to download Lion/Mountain Lion or Linux (I mention Linux because most Linux distros are downloaded rather than bought at a shop)

EDIT and my figures are a year out
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Old Feb 26, 2012, 04:21 AM   #141
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Hum, with a 12 month update cycle like iOS, I would not be surprised if this and future updates are under $10.
I seriously hope Apple doesn't go the iOS way for their OS. Even for the current Lion, many developers, including major ones, didn't bother or simply didn't have the time to make their applications up-to-date, hence the multiple bugs still seen in Lion.

Better off sticking with the previous version until the current one is mature. I don't think Apple customers like to be treated like beta testers.

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I wouldn't be surprised if they decide to just go entirely free, as they did with iOS updates.

Why?

Because they want you to upgrade. If you hear Mountain Lion is available free on the Mac App Store, you're going to go and download it. While you're there, you might notice some other apps. Apple takes at least a 30% cut on anything you decide to buy while you're there.

Why else?

Because Apple has new features in the new OS. They'd like it if developers used the new features. Developers will only use the new features if most of their users upgrade to the new OS. New features = new developers = new customers = revenue to Apple all around. Charging for an OS update is a shot in the foot.
They made paid releases until now, yet people adopted them very fast. So price isn't a major concern. Considering how clearly more powerful they were, and that they've been sold standard on all new Macs, this expand their user base almost effortlessly.

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Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_0_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Mobile/9A405)

If you have a Mac laptop, just go somewhere with Internet access (Starbucks, a fast food restaurant, etc.), download it, and make a DVD or thumb drive backup.
FYI, the Lion Internet recovery system doesn't support the captive portals that are commonplace in Starbucks or places like these.

Only WEP, WPA(2) are supported. 802.11x authentication, standard in large, corporate settings as well as universities, isn't supported. One does not provide a download as the only official restore method without supporting common authentication and encryption methods. Sorry Apple, this was botched.

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-also

Data limits?

I may be a cynical hater but...
+1.
Here in North America as well as most other countries, we do have data caps that are commonly very low. For example, one with only a 3G mobile connection couldn't download Lion without concern.

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The optical drive is only really going away on the Mac mini, where it likely won't be missed as most Mac mini customers don't actually do a whole lot of optical disc related tasks whereas a much larger demographic of iMac, MacBook Pro, and Mac Pro users do. That and given Apple's need to keep the mini...well...mini, you can't fit two hard drives and an optical drive in that enclosure. The optical drive is touted as a feature on the current generation of MacBook.
You seem to forget the multitude of people who actually took advantage of the Mini's "smallness", silence and good looks to place it where it fits well: as a home theater PC. No ODD means you can't use a present-day Mini as a HTPC, which is sad.

Plus, Apple would have been able to fit the ODD is they didn't make the Mini so thin. Sure it's beautiful, but loses practicality.

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Pros, which makes sense as MacBook Pros are higher-up on the Mac food chain than either the Mac mini or the MacBook Air. Similarly, people have made the argument that the Ethernet port is also on the extinction list, when this couldn't be further from the truth; it might not be on consumer machines, but contrart to popular belief, Apple's customers aren't all consumers.
Where do you actually take that assumption from? Consumers having only one PC at home typically place their modem right next to their computer in their apartment, and plug one into the other.

Quote:
As for XP, Microsoft maintained support because its customers demanded it. Similarly, if Apple wants any kind of foothold in any sort of business market (and believe me, they do), they will factor in industries that need a stand-alone OS restore media, factor in industries that still rely on the optical drive, and factor in common cross-platform technologies that rely on things that this community foolishly considers obsolete like Ethernet.
Customers realized they had no choice if they wanted a more stable and mature PC. Although ugly and antiquated, it was XP or the highway.

But considering how easy it currently is to produce a restore USB key or DVD, Apple could at least provide a simple tool to make such media. Windows Vista and Seven provide it for consumers to run as soon as they install their machines. Apple can do it, and call it "Administrator's installer", or whatever name implying exclusiveness. They already do it with Server Tools, which are mostly GUIs for built-in capabilities.

Or sell a restore, read-only USB key with the OS on it, but PLEASE put a reasonable price tag on it. It is effectively the most versatile install method for Macs since all have a USB port, but the Air and Mini don't have an ODD. More than double the OS' value for a key isn't fair, even to Apple's standards.

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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
You're arguments all amount to an exaggeration of the problems that users with only dialup access face. For the most part, it involves downloading a 3.5 GB file one time. Compared to the time it takes to download system updates that can be 1 GB or more this isn't a lot to ask.

If you don't have broadband access, you can take responsibility for your own situation and maintain good backups. Then you won't have to download the entire OS again just because of a hard drive problem.
People without broadband aren't responsible that their regional ISPs refuse to invest in better network. Until there are government incentives to build the missing parts the way they did in Europe, digital divide will remain. Sometimes all you need is a good kick in the butt to get to work.

Same goes for caps. Greedy ISPs want us to think it costs much money to move bytes around. Truth is, moving a gigabyte costs penny dust. Yet some charge over $8 per exceeding GB, and older plans still sport a shameful 2 gigabytes monthly cap. Fair competition isn't always available everywhere. I agree that high-speed, unlimited Internet should be a right, as it is in Sweden (or is it Norway?), but North american governments don't have any gut.

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Originally Posted by Yebubbleman View Post
Which most people don't know how to do. Also, people were never dependent on a bootable back-up before. Why should it be a necessity to get up and running to a desktop environment for anyone?
There was also a time when people only had diskettes to backup their computer. There was a time it was enough. There was a time people didn't bother update their computer since it could run for years using the same software and not see any significant change.

I personally backed up my first computer using CD-RWs, and everything fitted. Yes, I'm that young.

But technology evolved, and now you need, at the very least, stacks of DVDs to burn your data. But a clone is much more practical.
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Old Feb 26, 2012, 04:46 AM   #142
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Originally Posted by BaldiMac View Post
If that was your point, than it's not hard to understand. Obvious, even. The problem is that you have been arguing a whole bunch of different tangents from that argument. Every time someone provides a solution to one of your concerns, you throw in another "What if?"
I throw the "What ifs" as the solutions to my concerns aren't complete solutions where they are claimed to be. For instance, yes, a bootable back-up solves the problem of the user being able to restore their computer without requiring the redownload of Lion or Mountian Lion from the Mac App Store. However, where Apple makes the "what to do in the event of a disaster" pretty easy for a computer-newbie to understand, the process of making a bootable back-up is not as easily laid out for such a computer-newbie. I'm not saying that your suggestion isn't a good one, but it isn't a complete one and I'm thusly able to poke holes in it. I'll stop throwing "What ifs" if someone can provide a solution that I can't do that to.

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Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
You seem to forget the multitude of people who actually took advantage of the Mini's "smallness", silence and good looks to place it where it fits well: as a home theater PC. No ODD means you can't use a present-day Mini as a HTPC, which is sad.
Playing devil's advocate here, in all liklihood, if you were to set up a Mac mini as an HTPC, you are probably the type to have already had either a DVD player or a Blu-Ray player in place. If you had the former, the only downside to setting up a Mac mini as an HTPC is that you would have less of a reason to repurpose said DVD player.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
Plus, Apple would have been able to fit the ODD is they didn't make the Mini so thin. Sure it's beautiful, but loses practicality.
This is precisely why I think the Mac mini is, by design, a stupid computer. It's also way harder to service than a MacBook Pro. A laptop made by a company shouldn't be easier to service than a desktop made by the same company; that's just wrong. It's a horribly impractical computer, but nevertheless, it's the only choice you have if you want a Mac between $600-$998 and you're not willing to go the Hackintosh route.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
Where do you actually take that assumption from? Consumers having only one PC at home typically place their modem right next to their computer in their apartment, and plug one into the other.
If it's a desktop, then most times you're right. If it's a laptop, that's seldom the case. Otherwise, I've lived in many a household where the router and modem were in one spot and all other computers, desktop and laptop were in others and connected via Wi-Fi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
Customers realized they had no choice if they wanted a more stable and mature PC. Although ugly and antiquated, it was XP or the highway.
Windows 7 came onto the scene in October of 2009. XP support ends in 2014. From 2009 to 2014, Windows users have a choice as to which non-Vista OS to use.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
But considering how easy it currently is to produce a restore USB key or DVD, Apple could at least provide a simple tool to make such media. Windows Vista and Seven provide it for consumers to run as soon as they install their machines. Apple can do it, and call it "Administrator's installer", or whatever name implying exclusiveness. They already do it with Server Tools, which are mostly GUIs for built-in capabilities.

Or sell a restore, read-only USB key with the OS on it, but PLEASE put a reasonable price tag on it. It is effectively the most versatile install method for Macs since all have a USB port, but the Air and Mini don't have an ODD. More than double the OS' value for a key isn't fair, even to Apple's standards.
A $69 Lion USB drive is still cheaper than the $129 optical media disc that Leopard came on. Granted, it's not cheaper than the $30 optical media disc that Snow Leopard came on, but it was assumed that if you bought the $30 disc, that you already owned Leopard, and if you didn't, you were encouraged to buy the now-defunct Mac Box Set which cost $160. As far as that logic goes, Apple is selling it at a relatively fair price. That being said, if I'm able to make a much more functional USB drive of Lion using the InstallESD.dmg method that I can update as new versions of Lion hit the Mac App Store (so that when I run my installation of Lion on whichever Mac, the installation takes me straight to 10.7.3 without the need of a combo updater) for only $5 on top of the $30 Lion cost me to begin with, then $69 is a stupid price point.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
There was also a time when people only had diskettes to backup their computer. There was a time it was enough. There was a time people didn't bother update their computer since it could run for years using the same software and not see any significant change.

I personally backed up my first computer using CD-RWs, and everything fitted. Yes, I'm that young.

But technology evolved, and now you need, at the very least, stacks of DVDs to burn your data. But a clone is much more practical.
Personally, I think Time Machine kind of wins in terms of practicality and ease of use and set-up; though I'm able to make download-free copies of Lion to use in the event of a disaster, and thusly I can restore from a Time Machine to my most recent back-up much more easily than someone who lacks broadband and can't make the download-free copy of Lion or Mountain Lion to begin with.
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Old Feb 27, 2012, 02:23 AM   #143
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Originally Posted by Yebubbleman View Post
However, where Apple makes the "what to do in the event of a disaster" pretty easy for a computer-newbie to understand, the process of making a bootable back-up is not as easily laid out for such a computer-newbie. I'm not saying that your suggestion isn't a good one, but it isn't a complete one and I'm thusly able to poke holes in it. I'll stop throwing "What ifs" if someone can provide a solution that I can't do that to.
You seem to underestimate what "disaster" could really mean for a computer-newbie. It may well imply a lightning strike on their home, where all sensitive electronic devices are fried, including the modem, but the Mac miraculously survived since it was unplugged at that time, sitting on its owner lap while the latter, startled by the noise, got up but let his laptop fall hard. With a now dead HDD, he pulls an older one, installs it, but is stuck since he has no Internet access.

And, it's not as if making a bootable clone was difficult. It's much less tricky than it is in Windows or Linux. CCC's author is well aware of some user un-friendliness in his flagship application, and is working hard on it.

Quote:
Playing devil's advocate here, in all liklihood, if you were to set up a Mac mini as an HTPC, you are probably the type to have already had either a DVD player or a Blu-Ray player in place. If you had the former, the only downside to setting up a Mac mini as an HTPC is that you would have less of a reason to repurpose said DVD player.
I'm not. I don't like standalone DVD and BluRay player's lack of flexibility when it comes to playing films got on the Internets, therefore I'm unlikely to have these. But I define myself as a "power consumer" in this regard.


Quote:
This is precisely why I think the Mac mini is, by design, a stupid computer.
Oh, that's another matter. It doesn't make it so bad for a file server, and certainly doesn't apply to older Mini designs.

Quote:
It's also way harder to service than a MacBook Pro. A laptop made by a company shouldn't be easier to service than a desktop made by the same company; that's just wrong. It's a horribly impractical computer, but nevertheless, it's the only choice you have if you want a Mac between $600-$998 and you're not willing to go the Hackintosh route.
Just consider that an "budget" Mac isn't meant to be user serviced. I don't like that, either, but still, given a Mini, I wouldn't throw it away.

As for the hackintosh... From what I've read it's too much hassle to patch to be practical. It's just a toy, IMHO.

Quote:
If it's a desktop, then most times you're right. If it's a laptop, that's seldom the case. Otherwise, I've lived in many a household where the router and modem were in one spot and all other computers, desktop and laptop were in others and connected via Wi-Fi.
Laptops included. Living in smaller, older apartment doesn't provide much flexibility for appliances placements. They have to sit next to a power outlet, which is not THAT easy to come by in pre-1950 buildings. As such, most outlets regularly sport 4 or more plugs and wall warts of all sorts.


Quote:
Windows 7 came onto the scene in October of 2009. XP support ends in 2014. From 2009 to 2014, Windows users have a choice as to which non-Vista OS to use.
I written it in the PAST... Meaning AT THAT TIME, there was no choice for a stable Microsoft OS.

Quote:
A $69 Lion USB drive is still cheaper than the $129 optical media disc that Leopard came on. Granted, it's not cheaper than the $30 optical media disc that Snow Leopard came on, but it was assumed that if you bought the $30 disc, that you already owned Leopard, and if you didn't, you were encouraged to buy the now-defunct Mac Box Set which cost $160. As far as that logic goes, Apple is selling it at a relatively fair price.
I just find that paying $70 for an OS that seems unlikely to live longer than 1.5 or 2 years is exaggerated, especially considering how many bugs remain in it. Sure, many people liked Lion, but a large number hated it. And paying $70 for $30 real value is theft, even for Apple. I would accept $40 to $45 for a hardware media, but not more, if it was available in store, as a real product. People OK with digital delivery would get it at the lowest price, more traditional guys would pay slightly more for a hard copy, therefore gently pushing customers toward digital delivery. Already is the case for iLife, which is a paid upgrade, but included in any new Mac.

Quote:
That being said, if I'm able to make a much more functional USB drive of Lion using the InstallESD.dmg method that I can update as new versions of Lion hit the Mac App Store (so that when I run my installation of Lion on whichever Mac, the installation takes me straight to 10.7.3 without the need of a combo updater) for only $5 on top of the $30 Lion cost me to begin with, then $69 is a stupid price point.
It's more difficult when you use a Mac born with Lion, actually.

[/QUOTE]Personally, I think Time Machine kind of wins in terms of practicality and ease of use and set-up; though I'm able to make download-free copies of Lion to use in the event of a disaster, and thusly I can restore from a Time Machine to my most recent back-up much more easily than someone who lacks broadband and can't make the download-free copy of Lion or Mountain Lion to begin with.[/QUOTE]I think Apple could have made a bootable Time Machine set up if they wanted. But in my experience, Time Machine has not been a flawless experience; when the OS X install fails one way or another, I find it much preferable to restore only documents, and select applications parameters, none of which can be easily performed using a TM backup. One need to be extremely careful when doing it without using the primitive Migration Assistant (one of OS X's shortcomings).

Therefore, my backup drive has 4 partitions: one Leopard clone (when I was wary about SL's compatibility), one SL Clone, one Lion bootable installer, and one TM partition.
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Old Feb 27, 2012, 03:39 AM   #144
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Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
You seem to underestimate what "disaster" could really mean for a computer-newbie. It may well imply a lightning strike on their home, where all sensitive electronic devices are fried, including the modem, but the Mac miraculously survived since it was unplugged at that time, sitting on its owner lap while the latter, startled by the noise, got up but let his laptop fall hard. With a now dead HDD, he pulls an older one, installs it, but is stuck since he has no Internet access.

And, it's not as if making a bootable clone was difficult. It's much less tricky than it is in Windows or Linux. CCC's author is well aware of some user un-friendliness in his flagship application, and is working hard on it.
Computer-newbies aren't going to pull hard drives. They're also not going to know about CCC. The fact that this is all much easier on Mac OS X than it ever is on Windows or Linux is really awesome, but it's still not something a computer-newbie is going to know to do or know how to do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
I'm not. I don't like standalone DVD and BluRay player's lack of flexibility when it comes to playing films got on the Internets, therefore I'm unlikely to have these. But I define myself as a "power consumer" in this regard.
And I agree with you, I just was playing devil's advocate as that's probably Apple's reasoning for the HTPC customers out there; and honestly, with DVD players supporting more formats and with TVs having USB and Ethernet ports that support streaming internets-acquired stuff, I can see why they didn't break a sweat in not including an internal ODD on those machines. Still though, not only do I not like it, but I don't like that even on the 2010 Mac minis, the choice was one small capacity hard drive and an optical drive OR two small capacity hard drives; make the freakin' thing bigger so I can have my cake, eat it too, and have a BETTER computer.


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Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
Oh, that's another matter. It doesn't make it so bad for a file server, and certainly doesn't apply to older Mini designs.
With a maximum of 1TB on the non-server model and a maximum of 1.5TB on the server model, it's terrible as a file server unless you don't have all that much to serve to begin with.

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Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
Just consider that an "budget" Mac isn't meant to be user serviced. I don't like that, either, but still, given a Mini, I wouldn't throw it away.
Agreed. Still though, I can't say I like it. Any desktop machine should be more serviceable than even the most serviceable laptop. In Apple's case, their bottom-of-the-line desktop is less serviceable than their mid-top of the line laptop; that's just wrong.

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Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
As for the hackintosh... From what I've read it's too much hassle to patch to be practical. It's just a toy, IMHO.
They've come a long way in recent years. It's now much easier to build and maintain, provided following directions and looking up stuff on the internet isn't a challenge. In fact, as far as Mac OS X based file servers go, it's probably the best deal you'll ever come across given the lack of expansion on the Mac mini and the iMac, and the costliness and (for this purpose) overkill of the Mac Pro. My housemate has one alongside his MacBook Pro and swears by them. Much like me, the MacBook Pro is the only Mac that Apple makes that he'll ever buy and a Hackintosh is the only Mac OS X laden desktop he'll ever buy as he's more than capable of maintaining it, and it offers more flexibility than even the Mac Pro.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
I just find that paying $70 for an OS that seems unlikely to live longer than 1.5 or 2 years is exaggerated, especially considering how many bugs remain in it. Sure, many people liked Lion, but a large number hated it. And paying $70 for $30 real value is theft, even for Apple. I would accept $40 to $45 for a hardware media, but not more, if it was available in store, as a real product. People OK with digital delivery would get it at the lowest price, more traditional guys would pay slightly more for a hard copy, therefore gently pushing customers toward digital delivery. Already is the case for iLife, which is a paid upgrade, but included in any new Mac.
I was playing devil's advocate a bit there too. Otherwise, I agree, $40-45 is much more fair; it's almost as though Apple was discouraging use of the thumb drive, which is kind of stupid as it does serve a utility function as a download-free Lion installation media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
It's more difficult when you use a Mac born with Lion, actually.
True facts. I just assume that any Mac that ships with Lion is not going to take kindly to any Mac App Store-estracted InstallESD.dmg-made Thumb-drive/DVD of Lion. Unfortunate, really. Again, having to wait for my OS to download is inconvenient. I'm also pissed that they stopped shipping the Apple Hardware Test discs. I mean, I can still download the disk image of what it would've been via GSX, but the fact that it's not available to me as a consumer anymore is annoying.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cubytus View Post
I think Apple could have made a bootable Time Machine set up if they wanted. But in my experience, Time Machine has not been a flawless experience; when the OS X install fails one way or another, I find it much preferable to restore only documents, and select applications parameters, none of which can be easily performed using a TM backup. One need to be extremely careful when doing it without using the primitive Migration Assistant (one of OS X's shortcomings).

Therefore, my backup drive has 4 partitions: one Leopard clone (when I was wary about SL's compatibility), one SL Clone, one Lion bootable installer, and one TM partition.
Bizarre. My experiences with Time Machine have been nothing but great. It has never given me any grief whatsoever. The migration assistant has also been pretty great, though it did do some weird stuff that I wasn't a fan of when migrating data from my stepfather's Santa Rosa MacBook Pro running Snow Leopard to his new 2011 Mac mini running Lion, but it has otherwise been fine for me too. As for your back-up drive, it looks like a great emergency drive. I'd make one like that too if I had the extra drive lying around; though thankfully, I haven't ever needed such a thing.
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Old Feb 27, 2012, 09:02 AM   #145
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Originally Posted by KingJosh View Post
the next thing to go is USB hence thunderbolt
USB isn't going anywhere, it's a cheap format and a perfect fit for things like keyboards and mice. The idea that they'd dump USB and expect users to buy a thunderbolt mouse or keyboard is flat out comical.
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Old Feb 27, 2012, 01:18 PM   #146
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Originally Posted by Yebubbleman View Post
make the freakin' thing bigger so I can have my cake, eat it too, and have a BETTER computer.
You can change that, but since they made room only for 2.5" HDDs, you can only have as much. Slower, more expensive storage.

Quote:
Agreed. Still though, I can't say I like it. Any desktop machine should be more serviceable than even the most serviceable laptop. In Apple's case, their bottom-of-the-line desktop is less serviceable than their mid-top of the line laptop; that's just wrong.
Remember that Apple sells so-called solutions, and that solutions come before computers

Quote:
They've come a long way in recent years. It's now much easier to build and maintain, provided following directions and looking up stuff on the internet isn't a challenge. In fact, as far as Mac OS X based file servers go, it's probably the best deal you'll ever come across given the lack of expansion on the Mac mini and the iMac, and the costliness and (for this purpose) overkill of the Mac Pro. My housemate has one alongside his MacBook Pro and swears by them. Much like me, the MacBook Pro is the only Mac that Apple makes that he'll ever buy and a Hackintosh is the only Mac OS X laden desktop he'll ever buy as he's more than capable of maintaining it, and it offers more flexibility than even the Mac Pro.
I actually based myself upon recent posts when I looked for an error code that only happens on Hackintosh, usually. I'd find a Hackintosh would be fun to play with, but for production purposes, I'd stick with Ubuntu.


Quote:
True facts. I just assume that any Mac that ships with Lion is not going to take kindly to any Mac App Store-estracted InstallESD.dmg-made Thumb-drive/DVD of Lion. Unfortunate, really. Again, having to wait for my OS to download is inconvenient. I'm also pissed that they stopped shipping the Apple Hardware Test discs. I mean, I can still download the disk image of what it would've been via GSX, but the fact that it's not available to me as a consumer anymore is annoying.
It's not Mac App Store extracted. It's downloaded through the only path available, from the EFI loader. Installation is started, and interrupted. Then you can extract it using a working external clone using some Terminal magic.

Honestly, having had issues with Mac before, AHT weren't that useful. GSX =?

Quote:
As for your back-up drive, it looks like a great emergency drive. I'd make one like that too if I had the extra drive lying around; though thankfully, I haven't ever needed such a thing.
It's the actual backup drive, not an additional one. I never used the clone until I needed to extract the Lion installer. It's made so even a dead internal drive doesn't prevent me to work.

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Originally Posted by milo View Post
USB isn't going anywhere, it's a cheap format and a perfect fit for things like keyboards and mice. The idea that they'd dump USB and expect users to buy a thunderbolt mouse or keyboard is flat out comical.
Maybe he thought about Thunderbolt as a gateway for slower legacy ports?
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Old Feb 27, 2012, 10:15 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by pubwvj View Post
This is a bad move by Apple. There are a lot of people who live out in rural areas where high speed internet access are not available. We can't download OSX. This is the end of the road for us. I upgraded my son's computer to OSX Lion because I could get it on the USB thumbdrive. I paid the extra ($69 total) to get it on the thumb drive. Downloading it is just not feasible. Apple is alienating many users this way.
Don't be dramatic. It's a one-time download. Maybe this makes getting OS 10.8 difficult to get if you want it on day one, but surely there are places you can go and get broadband access for long enough to download it once.

Occasional alienation is a natural side effect of living in a rural area. The modern world passes you by on occasion. But you get to live in a rural area. We breathe exhaust and get good bandwidth. You could too, if you really wanted to.
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Old Mar 20, 2012, 01:02 AM   #148
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Features

I like how this article doesn't put the features of Mountain Lion, or the fact that there isnt any article discussing it, read the features here

http://thechurchofapple.com/2012/02/...mountain-lion/
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