Register FAQ / Rules Forum Spy Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
Go Back   MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > MacRumors.com News Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Old Mar 2, 2012, 12:59 PM   #1
MacRumors
macrumors bot
 
Join Date: Apr 2001
Apple Touts U.S. Job Creation with Claims of 514,000 Jobs Tied to its Products




Apple has come under increasing scrutiny for its offshoring of product manufacturing in recent years, with a number of observers believing that Apple should be trying to bring more jobs to the United States. But as noted by AllThingsD, Apple has now taken a more public position on its domestic impact by posting a new page on its site highlighting over 500,000 U.S. jobs it claims to be directly or indirectly responsible for.




Apple breaks the 514,000 jobs down into two categories: 304,000 jobs directly tied to Apple and its business partners and another 210,000 jobs that are part of the "iOS app economy". The first category includes 47,000 Apple employees and another estimated 257,000 employees at companies such as Samsung, Corning, FedEx, and UPS who are part of Apple's supply chain and other businesses. Rather than a direct count of employees at other companies, that latter figure is calculated based on "employment multipliers" published the U.S. government and applied to Apple's domestic expenditures.

Apple further addresses its in-house efforts, noting that 47,000 of its 70,000 employees are located in the United States, with 7,800 U.S. jobs having been added in 2011. Over 27,000 of its U.S. employees are part of the company's network of 246 retail stores, with Apple reporting that the majority of these employees are full-time workers. On the support side, Apple employees 7,700 AppleCare Advisors in the United States, acknowledging that it could save 50% on call center costs by outsourcing to other countries such as India but that it opts to keep the jobs in the United States in order to maintain its highly-regarded customer service standards.

On the App Economy side, Apple notes that it has paid out over $4 billion to developers since the App Store was launched less than four years ago, creating an entirely new industry that has seen 210,000 new jobs added to the U.S. economy. With 248,000 registered iOS developers in the U.S. and over 5,000 iOS developer jobs listed on Indeed.com, Apple clearly believes that the industry will continue to see strong growth.

Article Link: Apple Touts U.S. Job Creation with Claims of 514,000 Jobs Tied to its Products
MacRumors is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:01 PM   #2
drummingcraig
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: "Armpit of the South"
I wonder what those numbers would look like if Apple's manufacturing was done in the US as well. Not flaming them for being offshore. Just curious what the impact would be.

Edit: Geez...relax with the down votes people. It was a rhetorical question. Again...I'm not blaming Apple for having overseas operations.
__________________
~Traveling around the world beating on various objects, and getting paid to do it!~

Last edited by drummingcraig; Mar 2, 2012 at 01:18 PM.
drummingcraig is offline   4 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:03 PM   #3
Menopause
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by drummingcraig View Post
I wonder what those numbers would look like if Apple's manufacturing was done in the US as well. Not flaming them for being offshore. Just curious what the impact would be.
I believe it wouldn't be feasible due to higher labor and production costs. It'd have been worse.
Menopause is offline   9 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:05 PM   #4
nagromme
macrumors G4
 
nagromme's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2002
Quote:
Originally Posted by drummingcraig View Post
I wonder what those numbers would look like if Apple's manufacturing was done in the US as well. Not flaming them for being offshore. Just curious what the impact would be.
The numbers would be much closer to zero, if the resulting higher prices made their sales tank and prevented their products from getting any traction in an electronics market dominated by their low-cost Asia-sourced competitors
nagromme is offline   16 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:05 PM   #5
Small White Car
macrumors G3
 
Small White Car's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Washington DC
All fair points.

I think it's kind of strange that Apple needs to brag about these things, but I guess they've been pushed into a corner so they kind of had to say something.

People talk about manufacturing like it's the only step. But it's nice to see a powerhouse that's not Sony or Honda or Matsushita. Apple may offshore the manufacturing, but at least more of the money and work stays here than they do with a lot of other companies.

Nothing's perfect but I believe in noting the good along with the bad. We don't do that enough.
Small White Car is offline   5 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:09 PM   #6
hobo.hopkins
macrumors 6502a
 
hobo.hopkins's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by Small White Car View Post
All fair points.

I think it's kind of strange that Apple needs to brag about these things, but I guess they've been pushed into a corner so they kind of had to say something.
It is strange, but not incredibly surprising given the rhetoric of some individuals in these forums and in the press. If you listened solely to them, you would think that Apple only employed slaves and benefitted this country in no way. This information helps to put much of the recent discussion involving Apple into perspective.
__________________
Think morality requires religion? Name me an ethical statement made or an action performed by a believer that could not have been made or performed by a non-believer. I'm waiting...
hobo.hopkins is offline   13 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:09 PM   #7
troop231
macrumors 601
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
How many of those ~210,000 devs actually make enough $ to live on though is the question.
troop231 is offline   11 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:10 PM   #8
ArtOfWarfare
macrumors 603
 
ArtOfWarfare's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Send a message via Skype™ to ArtOfWarfare
Am I being counted as one of the 210K people in app development?

Because I consider myself unemployed right now and am looking for a job. iOS is a fun hobby that happens to bring in about $10/day; it's no where near enough to sustain me.
__________________
Don't tell me Macs don't last: 2007 iMac, 2007 Mac Mini, 2008 MacBook Air, all Vintage.
(iMac obsoletion: April 28, 2015, MBA: October 14, 2015, Mac Mini: March 9, 2016)
ArtOfWarfare is online now   17 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:10 PM   #9
eric/
Guest
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Ohio, United States
Quote:
Originally Posted by Small White Car View Post
All fair points.

I think it's kind of strange that Apple needs to brag about these things, but I guess they've been pushed into a corner so they kind of had to say something.

People talk about manufacturing like it's the only step. But it's nice to see a powerhouse that's not Sony or Honda or Matsushita. Apple may offshore the manufacturing, but at least more of the money and work stays here than they do with a lot of other companies.

Nothing's perfect but I believe in noting the good along with the bad. We don't do that enough.
Well, with their size and the high visibility of Apple, this sort of thing is to be expected.
eric/ is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:10 PM   #10
clibinarius
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post
The numbers would be much closer to zero, if the resulting higher prices made their sales tank and prevented their products from getting any traction in an electronics market dominated by their low-cost Asia-sourced competitors
Actually you're mostly wrong. Apple could absorb the hit on their profit margins and still make a profit. It'd make the items apple produces cost 33% more to make (if they're priced to perfection and the margins are above 33% including all costs to the business factored in, that means it'd be able to keep prices where they are, but the returns would take a beating).

But you're probably the type that gloats that Apple has $100B in the bank. This is why.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ArtOfWarfare View Post
Am I being counted as one of the 210K people in app development?

Because I consider myself unemployed right now and am looking for a job. iOS is a fun hobby that happens to bring in about $10/day; it's no where near enough to sustain me.
Yup, you are. When people talk about "Job creation" they almost never talk about how many jobs are middle/upper class and above the poverty line. Notice it says full time employees in 50 states-it doesn't talk about how many there are.

Last edited by clibinarius; Mar 2, 2012 at 01:20 PM.
clibinarius is offline   -12 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:13 PM   #11
Small White Car
macrumors G3
 
Small White Car's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Washington DC
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric/ View Post
Well, with their size and the high visibility of Apple, this sort of thing is to be expected.
I guess I should point out that I didn't say "strange" to mean "surprising."

I understand why they're doing it. It was more of a "what a funny world we live in" kind of a thing.
Small White Car is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:14 PM   #12
drummingcraig
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: "Armpit of the South"
Quote:
Originally Posted by Menopause View Post
I believe it wouldn't be feasible due to higher labor and production costs. It'd have been worse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nagromme View Post
The numbers would be much closer to zero, if the resulting higher prices made their sales tank and prevented their products from getting any traction in an electronics market dominated by their low-cost Asia-sourced competitors
I am well aware of the fact that as things currently are, they could not afford to have their manufacturing here. My question was mostly a rhetorical one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Small White Car View Post
All fair points.

I think it's kind of strange that Apple needs to brag about these things, but I guess they've been pushed into a corner so they kind of had to say something.

People talk about manufacturing like it's the only step. But it's nice to see a powerhouse that's not Sony or Honda or Matsushita. Apple may offshore the manufacturing, but at least more of the money and work stays here than they do with a lot of other companies.

Nothing's perfect but I believe in noting the good along with the bad. We don't do that enough.
I agree and I think that this can be said for some of the other larger companies who catch heat for having offshore operations. If operating plants overseas where it is more affordable allows a company to thrive and create a job market within our borders I am all for it (particularly if the alternative is bankruptcy).
__________________
~Traveling around the world beating on various objects, and getting paid to do it!~
drummingcraig is offline   0 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:15 PM   #13
newagemac
macrumors 68000
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Apple is one of the few U.S. companies that have been actually adding stores and adding jobs since the 2008 recession hit. Most have been closing stores and furiously laying off people up until recently. Props to Apple on that.
newagemac is offline   13 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:16 PM   #14
toshmac
macrumors member
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
define supported
toshmac is offline   -2 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:17 PM   #15
mrxak
macrumors 65816
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Drifting through space in a broken escape pod
Quote:
Originally Posted by clibinarius View Post
Actually you're mostly wrong. Apple could absorb the hit on their profit margins and still make a profit. It'd make the items apple produce cost 33% more.

But you're probably the type that gloats that Apple has $100B in the bank. This is why.
$100B in the bank means $100B more that banks can loan out to people starting businesses, buying houses and cars, and other things, which all means more job growth and more tax income for the government. Do you think banks give out interest because of magic? Banks are profit-making enterprises, using your money to make more money, then they give you back a cut.

Don't argue about economics if you are so ignorant of the basic elements of an economic system.
__________________
Phones Will Kill You
mrxak is offline   14 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:17 PM   #16
NeverhadaPC
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by clibinarius View Post
Actually you're mostly wrong. Apple could absorb the hit on their profit margins and still make a profit. It'd make the items apple produce cost 33% more.

But you're probably the type that gloats that Apple has $100B in the bank. This is why.



Yup, you are. When people talk about "Job creation" they almost never talk about how many jobs are middle/upper class and above the poverty line. Notice it says full time employees in 50 states-it doesn't talk about how many there are.
Finally someone talking sense. Manufacturing products in US would lead to marginal increases in product prices [labor is a small amount of product cost] ... the problem is, however, more likely tied to the lack of expertise on the manufacturing side in the USA --- 15 years of outsourcing has that effect. The other issue is of course the capitalistic goal of profit maximization and share prices. Apple wants $100B in the bank, not 200,000 blue-collar workers in USA.
__________________
15" MBP, 2.8 GHz, 4 GB RAM, 500 GB HD
20" iMac G5, 2 Ghz, 1 GB RAM, 250 GB HDD
Purple iMac G3 333 MHz, 96 MB RAM, 6 GB
NeverhadaPC is offline   -11 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:20 PM   #17
NeverhadaPC
macrumors 6502
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrxak View Post
$100B in the bank means $100B more that banks can loan out to people starting businesses, buying houses and cars, and other things, which all means more job growth and more tax income for the government. Do you think banks give out interest because of magic? Banks are profit-making enterprises, using your money to make more money, then they give you back a cut.

Don't argue about economics if you are so ignorant of the basic elements of an economic system.

So Apple puts $100B in the bank to help the banks loan money to individuals. How come Apple does not list these individuals as employees too then... would boost their figures surely... Keep drinking the Kool-Aid.
__________________
15" MBP, 2.8 GHz, 4 GB RAM, 500 GB HD
20" iMac G5, 2 Ghz, 1 GB RAM, 250 GB HDD
Purple iMac G3 333 MHz, 96 MB RAM, 6 GB
NeverhadaPC is offline   -11 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:20 PM   #18
isoMorpheus
Guest
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
I'm sure the Apple board is acutely aware how quickly their cash would go to the water if they change their model, and that's why they are as careful as they are now.
isoMorpheus is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:21 PM   #19
IJ Reilly
macrumors P6
 
IJ Reilly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Palookaville
Quote:
Originally Posted by clibinarius View Post
Actually you're mostly wrong. Apple could absorb the hit on their profit margins and still make a profit. It'd make the items apple produce cost 33% more.

But you're probably the type that gloats that Apple has $100B in the bank. This is why.
Companies only voluntarily "take a hit" on their profit margins if it gets them something else of tangible value. Apple says they're voluntarily paying more than they might by not offshoring AppleCare support because of quality issues. Neither Apple nor any other company is going to reduce their profit margins for nothing more than brownie points, and they sure aren't going to raise their cost structure by a third for that reason.
__________________
*The season starts too early and finishes too late and there are too many games in between.
Bill Veeck
IJ Reilly is offline   3 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:23 PM   #20
theheadguy
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: california
Send a message via AIM to theheadguy
It's kind of disappointing to see Apple going on the defensive. Things like this are a reminder that Steve is gone, never to return. Stay focused, Apple.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Small White Car View Post
...I think it's kind of strange that Apple needs to brag about these things, but I guess they've been pushed into a corner so they kind of had to say something....
I see I'm not the only one to notice it's a little odd. Although, I don't think they "had" to say something. Unfortunately, I think it's a sign of things to come.
__________________
the best feature of this forum is the ability to turn off the viewing of signatures
theheadguy is offline   -5 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:23 PM   #21
Eidorian
macrumors Penryn
 
Eidorian's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Cuidad de México
Send a message via AIM to Eidorian
Quote:
Originally Posted by newagemac View Post
Apple is one of the few U.S. companies that have been actually adding stores and adding jobs since the 2008 recession hit. Most have been closing stores and furiously laying off people up until recently. Props to Apple on that.
Aldi and Dollar General too...
__________________
Core i5 750 / 16 GB RAM / 500 GB SSD / HD 7950 / Windows 8.1
13" Retina MacBook Pro
Eidorian is offline   1 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:24 PM   #22
PeterQVenkman
macrumors 68020
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrxak View Post
$100B in the bank means $100B more that banks can loan out to people starting businesses, buying houses and cars, and other things, which all means more job growth and more tax income for the government. Do you think banks give out interest because of magic? Banks are profit-making enterprises, using your money to make more money, then they give you back a cut.

Don't argue about economics if you are so ignorant of the basic elements of an economic system.
Doesn't Apple, like many major corporations, hold it's profits and "treasure chest" offshore in a way that they paying massive amounts of US tax on it?
PeterQVenkman is offline   5 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:26 PM   #23
clibinarius
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Aug 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrxak View Post
$100B in the bank means $100B more that banks can loan out to people starting businesses, buying houses and cars, and other things, which all means more job growth and more tax income for the government. Do you think banks give out interest because of magic? Banks are profit-making enterprises, using your money to make more money, then they give you back a cut.

Don't argue about economics if you are so ignorant of the basic elements of an economic system.
Banks give out interest? No...not really.

Also most of Apple's cash is overseas to avoid paying taxes. That means foreign banks deal with the capital. And furthermore, let us say it went into a US bank. Sound great? Not really. Their main funders aren't savers anymore but the federal reserve due to horrible investments and propped up liquidity at a 0.1% interest rate. This isn't me complaining about the fed-I'm not sure that policy is good or bad-as much to say that $100B in the bank does nothing to help the US economy that the federal reserve couldn't make up and surpass anyway.

Perhaps you should learn about economics. Apple making obscene profits isn't a bad thing, but that doesn't mean it is good for the economy. Apple doesn't pay dividends, they don't hire people at particularly greater wages than they should (see Apple's non-poaching agreements to keep wages down)-I like their products, but their practices are really dubious. Pointing this out doesn't mean someone knows nothing about the economy.

Perhaps you should learn what Quantitative Easing and Low interest at the overnight window means...oh wait, you think banks pay interest and corporations pay taxes to the US government. Nevermind. I'm too ignorant to understand that stuff anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by IJ Reilly View Post
Companies only voluntarily "take a hit" on their profit margins if it gets them something else of tangible value. Apple says they're voluntarily paying more than they might by not offshoring AppleCare support because of quality issues. Neither Apple nor any other company is going to reduce their profit margins for nothing more than brownie points, and they sure aren't going to raise their cost structure by a third for that reason.
Companies never voluntarily take a hit. The problem is US policy. Simple regulations isn't the answer either. This is the free market at work. If people cared about Apple's policies, they'd stop buying the products. That means viable competition-but there are no American factories or US laws encouraging such things to happen. The notion that Apple can't get it done and charge its current prices is absurd is the point. Why would you voluntarily raise your cost structure by a third? You're absolutely right.
clibinarius is offline   -4 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:26 PM   #24
macrumorsuser10
macrumors regular
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRumors View Post
On the support side, Apple employees 7,700 AppleCare Advisors in the United States, acknowledging that it could save 50% on call center costs by outsourcing to other countries such as India but that it opts to keep the jobs in the United States in order to maintain its highly-regarded customer service standards.
To me this is the most important fact. Call-center support can easily be off-shored to save a few million, but Apple keeps it here in the USA. When I call them for tech support, I can talk to someone in English without have to ask them to repeat themselves or having to repeat what I'm saying. The end-to-end customer experience matters to Apple.
__________________
Owning an Android phone makes a statement, and that statement is: "Yeah, this is where I am in life. It's not where I want to be, but I'm doing my best."
macrumorsuser10 is offline   7 Reply With Quote
Old Mar 2, 2012, 01:26 PM   #25
theheadguy
macrumors 6502a
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: california
Send a message via AIM to theheadguy
Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterQVenkman View Post
Doesn't Apple, like many major corporations, hold it's profits and "treasure chest" offshore in a way that they paying massive amounts of US tax on it?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by macrumorsuser10 View Post
To me this is the most important fact. Call-center support can easily be off-shored to save a few million, but Apple keeps it here in the USA. When I call them for tech support, I can talk to someone in English without have to ask them to repeat themselves or having to repeat what I'm saying. The end-to-end customer experience matters to Apple.
Where are you getting these "facts" from? Call center support for Apple is not entirely in the USA. They do have reps in India to handle many first-level calls. Secondly, it's part of why Apple can charge an arm and a leg for its products. They move this stuff all overseas, and their brand loses some of its shiny appeal. In other words, Apple would suffer consequences from such a move... they aren't doing it all for charity. Sorry, but the argument that Apple keeps it in the US just because they "care about the experience" is BS.
__________________
the best feature of this forum is the ability to turn off the viewing of signatures
theheadguy is offline   -4 Reply With Quote

Reply
MacRumors Forums > News and Article Discussion > MacRumors.com News Discussion

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Similar Threads
thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Apple and Samsung File List of Patent Claims and Accused Products Ahead of Second U.S. Patent Lawsuit MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 41 Feb 6, 2014 04:58 AM
Police Seize Over $89,000 in Counterfeit Apple Products at Maryland Mall MacRumors iOS Blog Discussion 48 Sep 2, 2013 10:42 PM
Steve Jobs Once Considered Killing Apple's Pro Products MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 559 Aug 18, 2013 09:07 AM
Apple Job Listing for Plastics Design Engineer Hints at Innovative Designs for Future Products MacRumors MacRumors.com News Discussion 187 Feb 3, 2013 02:51 PM
US adds 171,000 new jobs in October; 25th straight month of job growth zioxide Politics, Religion, Social Issues 20 Nov 4, 2012 02:02 PM

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:25 PM.

Mac Rumors | Mac | iPhone | iPhone Game Reviews | iPhone Apps

Mobile Version | Fixed | Fluid | Fluid HD
Copyright 2002-2013, MacRumors.com, LLC