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Old Mar 13, 2012, 01:24 PM   #26
scoobydoo99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ftaok View Post
... To me, a basic definition of a tablet (nowadays) is a touchscreen device that has access to the web and apps (webapps or native). To me, the Fire qualifies as do the dozens of low-end tablets (i.e. Pandigital, Coby, etc).
OH. So the iPod Touch is a tablet, then?
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 01:50 PM   #27
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Down-vote me if you like but I have a question.

Do shipments mean sold to the consumer or do they mean sold to the retailer?

If it's the latter, what's the point in researching and publishing these numbers?

Pardon my ignorance.
Because they need something to report on.

That is why Apple reports sales and these other manufacturers report shipped/sold to retailers.

BIG DIFFERENCE.
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 02:06 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by scoobydoo99 View Post
OH. So the iPod Touch is a tablet, then?
Whoops, you're right. Of course I meant (even though I didn't explicitly state it) there's a size factor for tablets. I can't speak for everyone, but to me, a tablet is probably in the 7" to 11" range. It's one of those "I know it when I see it" deals. Maybe the key term would be "handheld" as in one-hand. I think most people would call an iPod touch a handheld device, but probably not a Fire or iPad.

As for the tablet category, there can be high-end and low-end tablets. iPads are clearly in the high-end and Kindle Fires are on the low-end. Then you got the really junky stuff on the bottom.

Anyways, these are just my opinions.

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Because they need something to report on.

That is why Apple reports sales and these other manufacturers report shipped/sold to retailers.

BIG DIFFERENCE.
Technically, Apple also reports shipments. However, for the most part, Apple's shipments = sales. They do carry inventory (# in channel), but they are very transparent about it and you can easily do the math to figure out the exact number of iPads they've sold for a particular quarter.
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 02:36 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobydoo99 View Post
OH. So the iPod Touch is a tablet, then?
Yes.

The iPhone is almost a tablet, but it makes phones calls, so it's a phone. Yes, you can blur that line with VoIP apps on tablets, but the line is still there: "phones" make non-VoIP phone calls, "tablets" don't.

Last edited by nsayer; Mar 13, 2012 at 02:44 PM.
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 02:43 PM   #30
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I guess that Fire's sales will decrease a bit after the initial fuss. It's a good entry-level device, but not really a competition for the iPad, what it pretends to be.
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 03:01 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by nsayer
Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobydoo99 View Post
OH. So the iPod Touch is a tablet, then?
Yes.

The iPhone is almost a tablet, but it makes phones calls, so it's a phone. Yes, you can blur that line with VoIP apps on tablets, but the line is still there: "phones" make non-VoIP phone calls, "tablets" don't.
If that's so, then add in the iPod touch numbers and lets see how it all stacks up.
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 03:14 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ryth View Post
That is why Apple reports sales and these other manufacturers report shipped/sold to retailers.
Apple also reports shipments to retailers as sales.

Only the sales reported from its own stores are to end users.

Quote:
BIG DIFFERENCE.
Sometimes, but not for long. Once a product has been for sale for a month or so, then shipments pretty much match sales, because by then the retailers have gotten a good feel for throughput.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ftaok View Post
Technically, Apple also reports shipments. However, for the most part, Apple's shipments = sales.
Yep, eventually. We've all seen plenty of older devices sitting on retailer shelves at times, though.

Quote:
They do carry inventory (# in channel), but they are very transparent about it and you can easily do the math to figure out the exact number of iPads they've sold for a particular quarter.
Actually, the quoted inventory channel numbers are not what's on retailer shelves, but rather what Apple has held in reserve to meet future requests.

(I.e. when Apple reports increasing to 6 - 8 weeks' worth of channel inventory, that's NOT what's sitting in all the retailer warehouses in the world. That would not only be insane, it would be illegal channel stuffing. It's Apple's job to keep inventory ready for old or new market sales.)

The reason Apple reports their channel inventory is because it's important to know if they're producing too much or too little for demand. (It also used to be a good clue as to when a new model was coming out, although that's less helpful now that Apple continues to sell older models as lower priced entries.)

The only time that their channel inventory report translates to likely extra end user sales, is when the number radically diminishes with no other possible explanation (like a new model coming out, or factory problems). At that point, it's assumed that end-user demand is extra high and thus so is retailer demand.
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 03:17 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by kdarling View Post
Actually, the quoted inventory channel numbers are not what's on retailer shelves, but rather what Apple has held in reserve to meet future requests.

(I.e. when Apple reports increasing to 6 - 8 weeks' worth of channel inventory, that's NOT what's sitting in all the retailer warehouses in the world. That would not only be insane, it would be illegal channel stuffing. It's Apple's job to keep inventory ready for old or new market sales.)

The reason Apple reports their channel inventory is because it's important to know if they're producing too much or too little for demand. (It also used to be a good clue as to when a new model was coming out, although that's less helpful now that Apple continues to sell older models as lower priced entries.)

The only time that their channel inventory report translates to likely extra end user sales, is when the number radically diminishes with no other possible explanation (like a new model coming out, or factory problems). At that point, it's assumed that end-user demand is extra high.
You're absolutely right on this. My main point is that Apple's numbers are very transparent (in regards to iPhones and iPads) and you can easily do to math to get a very accurate sales number for any particular quarter. You cannot say the same about Amazon, Samsung, etc.
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 03:49 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by ftaok View Post
Whoops, you're right. Of course I meant (even though I didn't explicitly state it) there's a size factor for tablets. I can't speak for everyone, but to me, a tablet is probably in the 7" to 11" range. It's one of those "I know it when I see it" deals. Maybe the key term would be "handheld" as in one-hand. I think most people would call an iPod touch a handheld device, but probably not a Fire or iPad.

As for the tablet category, there can be high-end and low-end tablets. iPads are clearly in the high-end and Kindle Fires are on the low-end. Then you got the really junky stuff on the bottom.

Anyways, these are just my opinions.
I think you're right that everyone has their own definition of where the line is between a tablet and something that's, well, LESS than a tablet. A handheld calculator performs electronic floating point calculations and displays the results on a screen. But no one would call it a "personal computer." It is a dedicated device with limited application. That's why (to me) the Fire is not a full-fledged tablet. Considering the limitations it has relative to the iPad (as outlined in my earlier post), it just seems targeted at a very small subset of what a tablet should do. The iPad is more analogous to a desktop PC, in that it has a variety of hardware features that lend themselves to numerous applications that I consider basic requirements for a "tablet". An e-reader, on the other hand, is dedicated to consuming content (books, video, etc) and a very few other limited capabilities.
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 04:36 PM   #35
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Kindle going up so Apple size might be going down?

I had read that Amazon had contracted I believe it was Foxconn for a 10 inch Kindle 2, no other specs given. Wall Street other sources predict that the Ipad will regain 70% share and highter in 2013, don't forget more improvements are due later Tim Cook said, and I think a smaller Ipad with fewer features but that works better than the small Kindle Fire might benefit schools is my thought weather they will do it or not is another matter. Good posts. Thanks
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 05:09 PM   #36
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Despite IDC's experience, theirs is purely a guess.
For all we know, of the TOTAL sold some 30% of the total is Fire, with another 10% Fire returns, the other 60% the cheaper eInk versions. I see Fire's as display everywhere,

As we all know, its extremely crippled as tablets go, and I suspect quite despised by the Android crowed becuase it is NOT open.

The funny thing is, success of the Fire seems to proves Apples point about tables.

Still, I am sure Apple considered Fire a threat and is making smaller iPad at lower price point. I wonder if it can take attention away from Amazon?
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Old Mar 13, 2012, 09:17 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scoobydoo99 View Post
The Fire has:
no front camera
no rear camera
no microphone
no bluetooth
no GPS
no accelerometer
no compass
no gyroscope
no video out
no ambient light sensor
lower resolution
less RAM
worse performance
less storage
no App store with 200,000 apps
and, finally, it's not full size.
The Fire has an accelerometer, an ambient light sensor (don't know if it uses it),same ram as the current iPad, over 3/4 the number of pixels. It runs many of the Top Apps just as well (cut the rope, where's my water) What does full size mean? I think the Kindle Fire is a great size. The iPad 1 and iPad wifi are missing several of the features you listed.

I've used a Kindle Fire extensively, and for the most part enjoy using it. I also pre-ordered the new iPad.
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 12:27 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRumors View Post
IDC's data measures shipments into the sales channel and not sales to end users,
In other words, it is possible that in fact there are only 1 million Fire's actually in use, compared to 15 million iPads. And if that is the case, then the Fire doesn't have 16% market share after all.

They really need to get their numbers in order and tell the whole truth.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Laird Knox View Post
These aren't really surprising numbers. Android sales are ramping up from virtually zero. It will be another year or two before the market begins to mature.

It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next couple of years.
how about just the next couple of months.

The 'new' iPad is about to hit the market and we could see crazy numbers for launch weekend and beyond. Perhaps crazy enough that Amazon could quickly be back to a single digit even lumping all Kindles and end-user/retailer sales together.
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 06:08 AM   #39
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they should really differentiate the tablet sales more. i have never ever seen another tablet than the ipad in the real world (subway, park, cafe....)
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 08:36 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Jensend View Post
The Fire has an accelerometer, an ambient light sensor (don't know if it uses it),same ram as the current iPad, over 3/4 the number of pixels. It runs many of the Top Apps just as well (cut the rope, where's my water) What does full size mean? I think the Kindle Fire is a great size. The iPad 1 and iPad wifi are missing several of the features you listed.

I've used a Kindle Fire extensively, and for the most part enjoy using it. I also pre-ordered the new iPad.

As for your claim on RAM, the Fire has 512MB, the iPad has 1GB.

The Fire has 614,400 pixels, the iPad has 3,145,728 (thats FIVE TIMES the number of pixels as the Fire).

I'm glad you enjoy your Fire. I never said it didn't have its place or that it couldn't be useful to some people.

It's just not a tablet.
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 10:17 AM   #41
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For all we know, of the TOTAL sold some 30% of the total is Fire, with another 10% Fire returns, the other 60% the cheaper eInk versions.
No. The numbers that analysts give are only for the Kindle Fire.

For 4Q11, Fire sales estimates range from:
  • low of 3.9 million by iSuppli (14% share)
  • thru 4.7 million by IDC (17%)
  • up to 6 million by several others (~20%)
Most reporters use the middle number.

Quote:
Still, I am sure Apple considered Fire a threat and is making smaller iPad at lower price point. I wonder if it can take attention away from Amazon?
Good question.

Like Apple, Amazon brings its own popular digital ecosystem, which includes books, video, music.

Plus of course the whole store thing where you can buy almost any physical product you want through them.

Sidenote: I love Amazon Prime! I've saved hundreds of dollars in shipping since last Fall, and the two day delivery on most things is sweet.
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 12:42 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by Laird Knox View Post
These aren't really surprising numbers. Android sales are ramping up from virtually zero. It will be another year or two before the market begins to mature.

It will be interesting to see how things develop over the next couple of years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlituna View Post
how about just the next couple of months.

The 'new' iPad is about to hit the market and we could see crazy numbers for launch weekend and beyond. Perhaps crazy enough that Amazon could quickly be back to a single digit even lumping all Kindles and end-user/retailer sales together.
Exactly my point - it will take a couple of years for the market to mature. iPad will likely gain market share this quarter and both platforms will see increased sales. There is still to much room for growth to call it a mature market. Designs will change and tablets will come and go.

As I said above: It will be interesting to watch the next couple of years.
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 02:37 PM   #43
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Fire = no strength in enterprise

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Originally Posted by MacRumors View Post
[...] But with the apparent success of the Kindle Fire, that disparity in shipments versus sales may be shrinking somewhat. [...]
I think we'll see iPad completely dominant in corporate IT pad computing. Enterprise has barely begun to integrate pad computers into their workflows, but I've read in MacRumors and elsewhere that 93 percent of Fortune 500 companies are either testing or have already deployed iPad. Doubtful that Kindle Fire (or any Android pad) could ever gain more than a tiny fraction of that.

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/01/18/...nes-and-ipads/

http://www.macrumors.com/2012/03/07/...y-ios-devices/
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 04:22 PM   #44
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I think we'll see iPad completely dominant in corporate IT pad computing.
Haha, I read that and thought what's an iTPad?
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 04:56 PM   #45
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They mean sold to the retailer, which is what everyone (Apple included) reports (unless sold directly via their own stores/websites, of course). Most companies, Apple again included, account for returns separately.

Most of us intuit that Apple has far fewer returns of new items that a store might stock up on. At the same time, stores do not continue to stock items that have been out for a while if they're not selling. Meaning, the first month or two of any tablet sales are suspect, but after that they're believable.
A completely rational observation. That's probably why someone had to rate it down. Now let's just think rationally. One week ago or so, there was exactly zero stock of iPad 3's in stores. Apple is going to ship to stores, stores are going to sell to customers, and at some point Apple will catch up with demand and there will be four weeks inventory in store. Simple maths shows that in this time frame, Apple _must_ have more sales to stores than stores sell to consumers.
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 06:43 PM   #46
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No. The numbers that analysts give are only for the Kindle Fire.

For 4Q11, Fire sales estimates range from:
  • low of 3.9 million by iSuppli (14% share)
  • thru 4.7 million by IDC (17%)
  • up to 6 million by several others (~20%)
Most reporters use the middle number.
Impressive, especially if 4Q is (typically) Oct to Dev, meaning the Nov 11 Fire launch an entire month and a 1/3. So 4.7 million in just under 2 months?

I can see Apple seriously moving on a smaller, cheaper iPad to compete then.
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Old Mar 14, 2012, 07:51 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by scoobydoo99 View Post
As for your claim on RAM, the Fire has 512MB, the iPad has 1GB.
The Fire has 614,400 pixels, the iPad has 3,145,728 (thats FIVE TIMES the number of pixels as the Fire).
I was comparing the newest model of each that is currently available.

Do the previous iPads become Not-Tablets when the new iPad comes out?
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Old Mar 16, 2012, 12:46 PM   #48
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The iPad 1 and iPad wifi are missing several of the features you listed.
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Originally Posted by Jensend View Post
I was comparing the newest model of each that is currently available.

Do the previous iPads become Not-Tablets when the new iPad comes out?
So first, you brought up the iPad 1, then you said you were comparing "the newest model of each" ??

Regardless, I was comparing the new iPad with the current Kindle Fire. The resolution and RAM numbers are current.
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Old Mar 16, 2012, 01:13 PM   #49
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Haha, I read that and thought what's an iTPad?
LOL. I figured since pre-recorded news and talk shows available on iTunes are called "podcasts," that maybe computing done on iPads would be called "pad computing." (Instead of "doing work on on portable media tablets," or whatever it is that IDG calls iPad-based productivity.)
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Old Mar 17, 2012, 01:53 PM   #50
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Sure they're both tablets.

Low-end vs. high-end with the difference reflected in the price (pointed out in at least one Amazon commercial)

What sets the Fire apart from the other low-end Android tablets is its tight integration with Amazon.

Amazon has long offered video and ebooks stored in the cloud (re-download w/o having to re-purchase)

Now all music purchased is there as well.

Plus you can share content with multiple devices (for ebooks the iPad down to the lowly $79 Kindle).

That's flexibility Apple still doesn't offer.
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