A5X Chip Floorplan Reveals Significant Space Required for Quad-Core Graphics

[teknishn]

Originally Posted by locust76

January?

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The iPad doesn't charge when plugged into a USB port. The iPad doesn't charge based off USB spec, it just uses a USB cable to do so.

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The new iPad takes "hours longer to charge," according to review sites.

You won't be seeing mass production of 28nm parts anytime soon. I'd say Q3 at best and thats being generous. And I'm talking about quality yields.

The iPad does charge of USB ports on Macs.

It doesn't take hours longer to charge, but it does take longer.... about 70% to be precise. lol. If it took you 2hrs to charge before..... expect 3.75 now etc. So far thats about what mine has taken.

[iMacian]

Yes keep destroying perfectly working iPads FOR NO REASON! It's not like we could wait a few days for the first trashed ones to come in.

[syriana]

Originally Posted by Moonjumper

I wonder if the A5X name is indicating a switch to the iPhone getting the new chip first? So the next iPhone will have the A6, then next year's iPad getting the A6X.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.
The A6, custom design with the Arm-V7 architecture, maybe PowerVr G6200 for iPhone, . A6X, 6 months later, same CPU, clocked a bit higher, and a power VR G6400 for the iPad and the higher number of pixels..

[Boisv]

This looks like the map of some WWII bombing run.

Those dual CPUs are really Nazi ammunition factories.

But watch out, that ARM CORE is a school!

[jamesnajera]

Originally Posted by mikethebigo

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9B179 Safari/7534.48.3)

If the A5x is a bigger chipset, it likely won't go in iPhone 5. Is Apple planning on sticking with the A5 in iPhone 5? I wonder...

I have been thinking the iPhone 5 will be the following:

4" screen
New external design
4G/LTE
A5 with maybe more RAM
Cameras maybe upgraded

That's it. I think Apple is not going to introduce the A6 now till iPad 4/iPhone 5s

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Originally Posted by MacAttacka

Maybe theyre shrinking A5x down to 28MM in time for iPhone 5. It seems sensible pioneering new architecture on the iPad and then scaling it down for the phone.

But why? The only thing the A5x brings to the table is better processing power for the graphics. The extra RAM is really for the graphics.

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Originally Posted by smiddlehurst

don't get me wrong, more power is always nice but right now it's hard to see what apple could have done differently. The roadmap is pretty clear right now: The fourth gen ipad will see an a6 based on the next gen architecture and probably receive a big ol' speed boost as a result. The iphone 6 will certainly get the a6 as well. The one that's still an unknown right now is iphone 5 but i wouldn't be surprised to see that get an a5 variant on 32nm as they're still going to be close to the wire to get cortex a15 cpu's out in volume by late summer.

bingo

[Elijahg]

Originally Posted by frick

The CPU in the A5X is completely unchanged from last year. This is pretty surprising in the context of other rapidly-evolving mobile devices, and I suspect you'll see Apple's competitors jumping to take advantage of it in short order.

How do you know it's unchanged? Apple has many teams working on the ARM core, tweaking it to get more power per watt. Don't forget that iOS is optimized for each Apple CPU using Apple's new LLVM compiler. Android is only optimized for generic ARM CPUs using GCC, so Android phones need a fair bit more CPU power to get to a similar speed to iOS devices. It doesn't matter what speed your CPU is if the software isn't efficient.

As I said, the only ones who care about the CPU speed etc are the geeks. No one else is interested. Geeks make up a rather tiny proportion of the population.

[TMay]

Originally Posted by frick

Agreed, but seeing as I don't own any Apple stock, this is immaterial to me. I am more interested in getting devices based on modern process technology if I am paying top dollar for them. The iPad 3 will do alright versus its competitors for a few months, but once Android/Win8 tablets start adopting 28nm SoCs and 4G radios, Apple's software advantage will evaporate. This is the Achilles' heel of their once-a-year release cycles. Of course, next year it's likely that everyone will be stuck at 28nm, and Apple will be back on top (hence why I'm waiting for the "iPad 4").



If Apple waited 2-3 more months before releasing the new iPad, chances are Samsung's 32nm low voltage node would've panned out fine (if Samsung was willing to allow Apple access to it, which is an unanswered question). Sure, there might have been shortages for awhile due to less-than-ideal yields, but I also saw a pile of unsold iPads at the Apple Store today when I returned mine...



The CPU in the A5X is completely unchanged from last year. This is pretty surprising in the context of other rapidly-evolving mobile devices, and I suspect you'll see Apple's competitors jumping to take advantage of it in short order. Apple made a bet that the retina display will be enough to differentiate the iPad from other tablets into 2013.

As far as anyone knows, Apple is using stock ARM CPU cores and PowerVR GPU cores -- the same as pretty much everyone else in the industry. There's probably a bit of additional engineering going into the Ax chips (power gating?), but not nearly as much as was originally required to design the CPU/GPU components.



See post #25.

woulda, coulda, shoulda

Real companies ship.

[jrawsterne]

Originally Posted by TMay

woulda, coulda, shoulda

Real companies ship.

ship a small batch, get no return, and crumble, Yay!

Customers get frustrated at not being able to buy said product, and buy elsewhere. Sounds like a business plan to me!

[powers74]

Originally Posted by frick

If this isn't evidence that Apple messed up by using a 45nm process (vs. waiting 2 months and moving to 32nm), I don't know what is.

I think what this is actually evidence of is, that Apple is not the type of company that just slaps the latest and greatest tech in at the last minute so they can plaster specs all over their packaging. And, it's not like they just started working on this thing in January.

[Dan--]

Originally Posted by Fraaaa

Red over Green!? Really!?

I don't know how it is for normal people, but for those of us with red/green colorblindness, this image is impossible.

[TMay]

Originally Posted by jrawsterne

ship a small batch, get no return, and crumble, Yay!

Customers get frustrated at not being able to buy said product, and buy elsewhere. Sounds like a business plan to me!

I'm in agreement with you so I'm guessing I was misinterpreted with my response to frick.

I think it was Guy Kawasaki that said "great companies ship" and Apple being a great company isn't going to risk volume production on "real soon now" tech.

[jrawsterne]

my bad

[dBeats]

I think the size is also related to the amount of heat generated by the new GPUs. Making it bigger spreads the heat load out a little. I know of plenty of software that can use GPUs for non-graphics related calculations, provided they are floating point-like operations. I can't see why apps can take advantage of that in certain circumstances.

I came from an iPad1 and my new iPad just seems like lightning to me now. I see no need for any more horsepower in this form factor without an active fan, and that's just wrong on a tablet.

[Hattig]

Originally Posted by mikethebigo

Wirelessly posted (Mozilla/5.0 (iPhone; CPU iPhone OS 5_1 like Mac OS X) AppleWebKit/534.46 (KHTML, like Gecko) Version/5.1 Mobile/9B179 Safari/7534.48.3)

If the A5x is a bigger chipset, it likely won't go in iPhone 5. Is Apple planning on sticking with the A5 in iPhone 5? I wonder...

Samsung's 32nm process will be ready soon to product the volumes required for the iPhone 5, but it clearly wasn't ready for the A5X.

It is also clear that Apple now have three lines of SoC - A5 (single core) for Apple TV, A5 (dual-core, on-package RAM) for mobile phones, and A5X (high-end, for tablets). I am going to assume that over the next year the A6 will be similarly configured.

A6 (dual-core, iPhone 5): 32nm (half die-area of 45nm). Dual-core ARM Cortex A15 (or Quad A9 otherwise) and graphics similar to A5X in performance (but via PowerVR 'Rogue' Series 6 graphics). This SoC will be clocked to reduce power consumption, so don't expect something that will actually (significantly) beat an A5X in actual benchmarks. Mid 2012.

A6X - A6 with twice the graphical performance via either higher gfx clockspeeds, or twice the graphics units. Early 2013.

[chrmjenkins]

Originally Posted by Hattig

Samsung's 32nm process will be ready soon to product the volumes required for the iPhone 5, but it clearly wasn't ready for the A5X.

It is also clear that Apple now have three lines of SoC - A5 (single core) for Apple TV, A5 (dual-core, on-package RAM) for mobile phones, and A5X (high-end, for tablets). I am going to assume that over the next year the A6 will be similarly configured.

A6 (dual-core, iPhone 5): 32nm (half die-area of 45nm). Dual-core ARM Cortex A15 (or Quad A9 otherwise) and graphics similar to A5X in performance (but via PowerVR 'Rogue' Series 6 graphics). This SoC will be clocked to reduce power consumption, so don't expect something that will actually (significantly) beat an A5X in actual benchmarks. Mid 2012.

A6X - A6 with twice the graphical performance via either higher gfx clockspeeds, or twice the graphics units. Early 2013.

Possible. A few things to keep in mind. While 32nm is half the die area for the same design as 45nm, A15 cores are bigger than A9 cores. Also, about the graphics power, Rogue chips are significantly faster than 5xx series. A dual core rogue will best the 543MP4. (nearly 3x polygons/second, 25% more Megapixels/second in raw numbers, a lot more architectural advantages)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powervr..._6_.28Rogue.29

edit: shot of the die (much better than tech insights IMO)



http://www.chipworks.com/en/technica...-is-beautiful/

[axual]

I have no real comment on the article ...

It just breathtaking and astonishing what a monkey, with slightly larger brain and some opposing thumbs have come up with.

Amazing.

[MrNomNoms]

I think the interesting part will be when Apple releases a ARMv8 based chip which will be 64bit and where it takes not only iOS but the Mac OS X platform.

Originally Posted by Elijahg

How do you know it's unchanged? Apple has many teams working on the ARM core, tweaking it to get more power per watt. Don't forget that iOS is optimized for each Apple CPU using Apple's new LLVM compiler. Android is only optimized for generic ARM CPUs using GCC, so Android phones need a fair bit more CPU power to get to a similar speed to iOS devices. It doesn't matter what speed your CPU is if the software isn't efficient.

As I said, the only ones who care about the CPU speed etc are the geeks. No one else is interested. Geeks make up a rather tiny proportion of the population.

It is important to understand that Android applications etc. aren't compiled into native code, they use Dalvik which comes at a price - performance and battery life.

[AidenShaw]

Originally Posted by MrNomNoms

I think the interesting part will be when Apple releases a ARMv8 based chip which will be 64bit and where it takes not only iOS but the Mac OS X platform.

Will it resuscitate Rosetta to run x64 apps on ARM?

[MrNomNoms]

Originally Posted by AidenShaw

Will it resuscitate Rosetta to run x64 apps on ARM?

From what I understand going from PowerPC to x86 is a lot easier than going form x86 to some other platform so I don't think we'd see it. With Mountain Lion being released one thing to remember is some the last vestiges of Carbon are being deprecated and replaced with Cocoa frameworks so it is just a matter of time (3-4 years) where Mac OS X will be a purely Cocoa operating system from top to bottom thus making universal applications a whole lot easier.

The big question is whether in 3-4 years time whether developers out there are happy to on removing the last vestiges of Carbon code and platform dependent optimisation. I could see ARMv8 gaining traction but there are still big names like Microsoft and Adobe who seem to be hell bent on dragging their feet when ever the opportunity arises.

IMHO I could see a ARMv8 device shipping and the performance will be at the point where people stop caring about performance and instead are concerned about the bigger picture outside of the specifications. Even today I look at the specifications and quite honestly for the vast majority of people the computers these days are a complete overkill. If the ARMv8 can deliver that sort of performance even if it is slightly slower than what Intel has to offer (in terms of raw performance) then people are still going to be happy to purchase a Mac.

[dba7dba]

Originally Posted by teknishn

Apple has its own chip design team. The big difference between Apple and the competition is that Apple gets to build what it wants/needs to an exacting part. Everyone else has to buy off the shelf parts from Nvidia, Samsung, Qualcomm and just make them work. This is where Apple just confounds the competition. The new gpu and screen of the new ipad alone pretty much just killed the Tegra3 for example.

Just wanted to point out that Samsung also makes/sells smartphone/tablets. It's a different animal compared to Nvidia/Qualcomm.

[MrNomNoms]

Originally Posted by dba7dba

Just wanted to point out that Samsung also makes/sells smartphone/tablets. It's a different animal compared to Nvidia/Qualcomm.

But even then there is no guarantee that the different divisions of Samsung work together given that there are many examples such as Sony and IBM where the different divisions work pretty much as separate units with little in the way of dialogue between those divisions. Where are Apple had divisions but without hard lines of separation what we see in many cases are businesses who take the idea of individual division accountability (which I agree with) to the logical extreme where no one shares any information with each other. In many cases it reminds me of the sort of lack of communication that happens in the public service where each department will zealously guard their fiefdom and information they have which other departments might require.

[Hellhammer]

Originally Posted by MrNomNoms

But even then there is no guarantee that the different divisions of Samsung work together given that there are many examples such as Sony and IBM where the different divisions work pretty much as separate units with little in the way of dialogue between those divisions. Where are Apple had divisions but without hard lines of separation what we see in many cases are businesses who take the idea of individual division accountability (which I agree with) to the logical extreme where no one shares any information with each other. In many cases it reminds me of the sort of lack of communication that happens in the public service where each department will zealously guard their fiefdom and information they have which other departments might require.

Well, there is no proof that Apple's SoC team works with the rest of the iPad team. Your argument is just based on your own thoughts, so you can't claim that Apple is "better" in this sense when compared with Samsung.

[MrNomNoms]

Originally Posted by Hellhammer

Well, there is no proof that Apple's SoC team works with the rest of the iPad team. Your argument is just based on your own thoughts, so you can't claim that Apple is "better" in this sense when compared with Samsung.

From what is rumoured the lines of separation are a lot less stringent given that the whole organisation work as a single unit towards a single goal rather than in the case of Microsoft where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

[dba7dba]

Originally Posted by MrNomNoms

From what is rumoured the lines of separation are a lot less stringent given that the whole organisation work as a single unit towards a single goal rather than in the case of Microsoft where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

I understand your love for all things apple but I was talking about samsung. and now you counter with talk of Microsoft...

[MrNomNoms]

Originally Posted by dba7dba

I understand your love for all things apple but I was talking about samsung. and now you counter with talk of Microsoft...

How about READING what people post. This is what you said in reply to me:

Well, there is no proof that Apple's SoC team works with the rest of the iPad team. Your argument is just based on your own thoughts, so you can't claim that Apple is "better" in this sense when compared with Samsung.

To which I replied the following:

From what is rumoured the lines of separation are a lot less stringent given that the whole organisation work as a single unit towards a single goal rather than in the case of Microsoft where the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.

Where you deliberately ignored what I stated (in bold) in favour of focusing on Microsoft - it was a comparison between structural differences based on the rumoured structure in which Apple operates internally. Again, you ignore what should be a very basic paragraph because you're more concerned about firing off half baked replies than actually reading, digesting, ruminating then taking into consideration a reply that actually addresses what the original poster said and not what you think he said.