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Old Mar 30, 2012, 09:41 PM   #51
MacAddict1978
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Originally Posted by KPOM View Post
Much ado about almost nothing. Apple will make the changes to its websites and marketing materials, and move on. For the vast majority of customers outside the US and Canada, lack of LTE is not that big a deal since their 3G HSPA+ networks are very good. It's still a boost from the iPad 2, as well.

Complaints like this occur all the time, and marketing materials are fixed. If it weren't Apple chances are it wouldn't be getting much press.
It's not the 4G moniker that they are in trouble with... it's that LTE is stamped on the box and described in the marketing materials. People that want LTE already know what it is... they're not reading the entire descriptor... they don't have too... and the disclaimer is still at the very end of that.

If you buy an iPad from your wireless company and it says LTE on the box, of course you would think you were buying a device that works on their LTE network.

I'm not wide eyed at the bad marketing move Apple did (because it's just stupidity on their marketing departments part)... my jaw is dropped that they shipped iPads with LTE chips that don't operate on local frequencies. Paid for the part, put it inside the device... why didn't they just order LTE chipsets with those frequencies and put those in the device?

I can see Steve Job's ghost haunting the team that did this. "You should hate yourselves for this and for embarrassing the company. I'm going to make all your devices run on edge for a year to teach you a lesson..." Seriously, I can't imagine Steve Jobs would have ever allowed a device to ship internationally with a useless LTE chip in it.
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Old Mar 30, 2012, 09:55 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by MacAddict1978 View Post
I'm not wide eyed at the bad marketing move Apple did (because it's just stupidity on their marketing departments part)... my jaw is dropped that they shipped iPads with LTE chips that don't operate on local frequencies. Paid for the part, put it inside the device... why didn't they just order LTE chipsets with those frequencies and put those in the device?

I can see Steve Job's ghost haunting the team that did this. "You should hate yourselves for this and for embarrassing the company. I'm going to make all your devices run on edge for a year to teach you a lesson..." Seriously, I can't imagine Steve Jobs would have ever allowed a device to ship internationally with a useless LTE chip in it.
For me, I'm more surprised that Marketing didn't catch it.

Yes, I believe Steve Jobs would have shipped a 3rd generation iPad with exactly the same LTE frequencies. Think about it. Apple is generally a laggard when it comes to supporting new wireless technologies. The original iPhone shipped with EDGE when 3G networks were common not only in Europe but the US. With LTE the situation has gotten worse. 3 bands were enough to get decent worldwide coverage with 2G. It takes 5 bands with 3G. With LTE, it's 3 bands to cover the US alone (two different 700MHz bands and AWS). Europe has 3 different bands, and Australia and Japan add some others.

There simply aren't LTE chipsets out there that support all the bands, and Apple is not the kind of company that likes to have multiple versions of a product, which is what would be necessary to support LTE outside the US and Canada. It was enough of a shift for them to make a special version for Verizon (and they have the largest LTE network in the world so it makes sense). Plus, outside the US, LTE generally isn't as well developed, and it also is less necessary. 3G networks in the EU, Asia, and Australia are more well-developed than 3G networks in the US. We need LTE here in the US to get decent throughput.

By this time next year (actually, by the time the new iPhone comes out), there will be better LTE chipsets that don't use up as much power. They will support additional frequencies, and I'm confident Apple will be shipping iPads and iPhones that support LTE outside North America.
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Old Mar 30, 2012, 11:00 PM   #53
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It's so frustrating to see Americans who have no idea about anything that happens outside of the US talk like they have an idea. Only an American could be stupid enough to believe that the US is the centre of the universe.
Your post may be down rated, but you know, its true. i.e., Quite a proportion of americans couldn't point on a map where they are currently fighting wars.
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Old Mar 30, 2012, 11:06 PM   #54
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Your post may be down rated, but you know, its true. Quite a proportion of americans couldn't point on a map where they are currently fighting wars.
I'm afraid that most Americans couldn't point to Minnesota if you gave them a map of the 48 lower continental states without labels.

And ask a really, really tricky question like "what city is the capital of the state of New York" - I'd be surprised if fewer than 95% responded "New York City".

But they love them Iphones and Ipads! Text away - even while drivin<crash>.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:39 AM   #55
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In response to all the "get over it" comments -

Just take a step back, and think about what the reaction would have be in the United States if Apple released the brand new LTE-compatible "iPad Wifi + 4G" on March 7, then when everyone started receiving their pre-ordered iPads on March 16, they realized that it was utterly incompatible with either Verizon or AT&T's 4G networks.

Then, imagine if the response was "well.... it works perfectly well on Australia's and Norway's 4G networks, so I don't know what you are complaining about - it was in the fine print".

Or maybe the response would be "well.... technically you can call pretty much anything 4G, so you should be satisfied with pre-LTE 3G technology, because the fine print says that I can call that 4G if I want to".

I'm guessing that there would be a very large number of unhappy American consumers in that scenario.

As I said in a previous post - I love my Apple products and admire them as a company, but this is a monumental marketing mistake and local regulators around the world have every right to stand up for consumers in their local jurisdiction if a company has engaged in misleading advertising.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:51 AM   #56
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Damn. I thought the ACCC was telling Apple to remove the term 4G as well. I don't want them to just fine them, I want them to correct the mistake. Australians regard LTE as 4G - ergo it is not a 4G device in Australia. It's a NextG device at best if you want to use Telstra marketing terms.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 01:01 AM   #57
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Current LTE (3GPP) spec covers different ranges of frequency spectrum in various countries.

Different Telcos have required themselves to operate at different frequencies due to other factors such as neighboring frequencies owned by other operations (including satellite-to-terrestrial bounce like Sirius/XM).

Apparently Telstra / Australia is operating it's so-called LTE on yet another frequency that Apple's multiband 4G doesn't handle (at least not at 4G speeds).

Wimax is only similar to LTE in frequency, but I believe requires more power, so has fallen by the wayside other than for use in so-called 'backhaul' operations.

G
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 01:34 AM   #58
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sardonick007
People should be smart enough to know what services are available in their communities. Regardless of branding, this is just nonsense to hit Apple. If you're dumb enough to buy something without clearly knowing your areas capabilities, then it's on you. If you're also dumb enough to buy a 4G device knowing there is no 4G in your service area (yet or ever) then how is that Apples fault? 4G is a marketing ploy for every company using it and cell providers are piranhas, nobody is making them force truth in advertising. I wouldn't change the branding, I would pull the sales of the iPad in those counties and tell them to piss off. I'd be out of business and obviously that's why I don't own a multi-billion dollar company, but whatever, it's my opinion eh. Soon as they fix this, another series of BS will crop up and continue to spread like wildfire. Give them an inch, they'll take whatever they can get.

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Originally Posted by Marcus-k View Post
Whats wrong with wanting 4G if it is advertised?
Apple has a 4G capable device. If you're in a 4G market, you get 4G on your capable device. Apple never said that if you buy the new iPad, you will magically get 4G on your carrier regardless what their cellular product is. Now, if they had said "Buy this and your crap service turns into gold..." then yea, I'm with you. I never had any expectation that my iPad was going to be blazing fast on my POS Verizon network. It's not that much better for day to day activities than 3G was, but that's not Apples fault. It's like buying a Ferrari and blaming the company because the local municipality won't raise the speed limit.
Is this serious or tongue in cheek. Gosh I hope it's not serious.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 01:51 AM   #59
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Originally Posted by TomP80 View Post
In response to all the "get over it" comments -

Just take a step back, and think about what the reaction would have be in the United States if Apple released the brand new LTE-compatible "iPad Wifi + 4G" on March 7, then when everyone started receiving their pre-ordered iPads on March 16, they realized that it was utterly incompatible with either Verizon or AT&T's 4G networks.

Then, imagine if the response was "well.... it works perfectly well on Australia's and Norway's 4G networks, so I don't know what you are complaining about - it was in the fine print".

Or maybe the response would be "well.... technically you can call pretty much anything 4G, so you should be satisfied with pre-LTE 3G technology, because the fine print says that I can call that 4G if I want to".

I'm guessing that there would be a very large number of unhappy American consumers in that scenario.

As I said in a previous post - I love my Apple products and admire them as a company, but this is a monumental marketing mistake and local regulators around the world have every right to stand up for consumers in their local jurisdiction if a company has engaged in misleading advertising.
Not only unhappy. It would end in a class action lawsuit. It's not like they haven't sued them for lesser things before

Anyway, I don't want to seem like another "America basher" because I am not, but I do agree: The advertisement is misleading.

All terminology discussions aside, Europeans usually use the terms 4G and LTE interchangeably. For us 4G is LTE and LTE is 4G (Czech Republic aside, they have had "4G" for years, but it was really just some American standard at max 16Mbit that is not compatible with any other EU-country).

Anyway, Apple both markets it's iPad as "WiFi+4G" and explicitly writes LTE. When the new iPad was launched over here it was definitely not clear that it wouldn't work in European LTE networks and unless they have changed the wording now (haven't checked since launch) it's still unclear and I would be both disappointed and angry if I bought it assuming I could use it with my LTE-contract.

There was actually a debate in the newspapers where telcos said that they have heard no word on whether the iPads even would work on our networks and when the iPad page later went live and I was looking at it I thought: "Oh, ok, so they must have resolved it since it's quite clear that it works on LTE".

I know assumption is the mother of all ******-ups, but Apple really dropped the ball with their first LTE device. After all, their arch-nemesis (Samsung) can produce phones and tablets that work "just as advertised" on our LTE networks.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 02:22 AM   #60
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Originally Posted by Delegator View Post
I don't understand why Apple sells the 4g version of the iPad outside North America. It makes no sense -- if people outside the area with compatible wireless networks really want the 4g because they travel here, then they can just pick one up in the US or Canada anyway (usually much cheaper than in their home country, too!).

Just pick up, HaHa, you must be kidding.
Round trip from Europe/Australia/Anywhere > (is bigger than) the price difference in between Europe/Australia/Anywhere and USA.(Except maybe Brasil)
Not only that but you also forget tax, in many countries in Europe it's 20%, and if you "forget" to pay and they stop you at the border you pay a fee on top of that.


Apple should comply with countries laws regardless where that is.
Apple should have waited with this release until LTE chips are compatible with most frequencies, Apple earns more cash outside of the US yet they still don't act like it.

Last edited by justperry; Mar 31, 2012 at 02:31 AM.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 03:50 AM   #61
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I think the scenario we're seeing here really displays how little Apple cares about markets outside of America. They made TWO separate US models of the new iPad, but couldn't bother to make one for "the rest of the world".
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 04:41 AM   #62
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If its 4G, then its supposed to be 4G capable. It does not accept what will be the frequency for 4G in the UK, therefore it is not capable of 4G here.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 05:30 AM   #63
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Originally Posted by fabianjj View Post
I think the scenario we're seeing here really displays how little Apple cares about markets outside of America. They made TWO separate US models of the new iPad, but couldn't bother to make one for "the rest of the world".
This.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:37 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by Sardonick007 View Post
People should be smart enough to know what services are available in their communities. Regardless of branding, this is just nonsense to hit Apple. If you're dumb enough to buy something without clearly knowing your areas capabilities, then it's on you. If you're also dumb enough to buy a 4G device knowing there is no 4G in your service area (yet or ever) then how is that Apples fault? 4G is a marketing ploy for every company using it and cell providers are piranhas, nobody is making them force truth in advertising. I wouldn't change the branding, I would pull the sales of the iPad in those counties and tell them to piss off. I'd be out of business and obviously that's why I don't own a multi-billion dollar company, but whatever, it's my opinion eh. Soon as they fix this, another series of BS will crop up and continue to spread like wildfire. Give them an inch, they'll take whatever they can get.

----------



Apple has a 4G capable device. If you're in a 4G market, you get 4G on your capable device. Apple never said that if you buy the new iPad, you will magically get 4G on your carrier regardless what their cellular product is. Now, if they had said "Buy this and your crap service turns into gold..." then yea, I'm with you. I never had any expectation that my iPad was going to be blazing fast on my POS Verizon network. It's not that much better for day to day activities than 3G was, but that's not Apples fault. It's like buying a Ferrari and blaming the company because the local municipality won't raise the speed limit.
But that's the problem and the reason for the complaints. Apple markets the iPad's 4G capability, I AM in a 4G (LTE) market, yet, I DON'T and never will get 4G (LTE) on the iPad because Apple decided it didn't need to be compatible with the LTE networks outside of north america.
The best thing would've been if Apple made a different version of the iPad for the networks with different frequencies. They chose not to, that's their prerogative but it also means they forfeit their ability to market it as "4G" were it's incompatible with the existing or future 4G network.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:59 AM   #65
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Originally Posted by Sardonick007 View Post
People should be smart enough to know what services are available in their communities. Regardless of branding, this is just nonsense to hit Apple. If you're dumb enough to buy something without clearly knowing your areas capabilities, then it's on you. If you're also dumb enough to buy a 4G device knowing there is no 4G in your service area (yet or ever) then how is that Apples fault? 4G is a marketing ploy for every company using it and cell providers are piranhas, nobody is making them force truth in advertising. I wouldn't change the branding, I would pull the sales of the iPad in those counties and tell them to piss off. I'd be out of business and obviously that's why I don't own a multi-billion dollar company, but whatever, it's my opinion eh. Soon as they fix this, another series of BS will crop up and continue to spread like wildfire. Give them an inch, they'll take whatever they can get.

----------



Apple has a 4G capable device. If you're in a 4G market, you get 4G on your capable device. Apple never said that if you buy the new iPad, you will magically get 4G on your carrier regardless what their cellular product is. Now, if they had said "Buy this and your crap service turns into gold..." then yea, I'm with you. I never had any expectation that my iPad was going to be blazing fast on my POS Verizon network. It's not that much better for day to day activities than 3G was, but that's not Apples fault. It's like buying a Ferrari and blaming the company because the local municipality won't raise the speed limit.
Maybe you shoul do some research before you spout out incorrect information. There is 4G coverage in many places outside of America and Canada, but the iPads 4G does still not work. It only works on American 4G frequencies.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 07:56 AM   #66
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I don't understand why Apple sells the 4g version of the iPad outside North America. It makes no sense -- if people outside the area with compatible wireless networks really want the 4g because they travel here, then they can just pick one up in the US or Canada anyway (usually much cheaper than in their home country, too!).
The 3G and LTE are all on the same chip, including support for the faster 3G standards which are useful outside the US, so its not like there's a "LTE module" that they could just leave out. Even assuming that there exists a suitable chip with the faster 3G support but no LTE, and that it is significantly cheaper than the 4G one (big 'if' there) the extra costs of designing and manufacturing two different circuit boards (probably requiring separate certification from the FCC or its international equivalents) would probably wipe out any saving. Economies of scale are very important in consumer electronics.

There's no harm done having a US-only 4G facility in an iPad: the problem is advertising it as having "4G" in countries where "4G" means "LTE on non-US frequencies coming to a cell tower near you Real Soon Now" and HSPA+ is called "3G".

All that needed to change was the advertising and the stickers on the box (and the box is a generic design with stickers for the model name, so that's no hardship).

They've pretty much fixed the UK website now - which has changed several times since the launch and now says "The new iPad supports fast mobile data networks around the world, including HSPA, HSPA+ and DC-HSDPA." All that remains to be seen is whether the ASA will force Apple to change the model name.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by fabianjj View Post
I think the scenario we're seeing here really displays how little Apple cares about markets outside of America.
Heck, they can't even make a proper British keyboard for UK Macs, they just change the "#" to a "". Sigh.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 09:44 AM   #67
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Heck, they can't even make a proper British keyboard for UK Macs, they just change the "#" to a "". Sigh.
Eh?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:08 PM   #68
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Image
Yeah. I'm sure the ****ing queen is loving being the only person in the country capable of receiving 4G speeds.

Dear oh dear.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 12:51 PM   #69
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Your post may be down rated, but you know, its true. i.e., Quite a proportion of americans couldn't point on a map where they are currently fighting wars.
You do know that Britons and Canadians don't do much better than Americans on those geography tests?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:10 PM   #70
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Good.

Apple have definitely gone about the 4G thing the wrong way. Completely misadvertising it outside NA.

If its 4G, then its supposed to be 4G capable. It does not accept what will be the frequency for 4G in the UK, therefore it is not capable of 4G here.

But nevertheless, I'm sure the Advertising Standards Agency will be all over it by now. Expect a rename in the coming months.
agreed.

what's going on with apple lately?

these tactics are cheap
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 07:16 PM   #71
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The product has a certain capability. The wireless providers are not compatible. Remove availability from those markets, but do not accept responsibility for someone trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 07:53 PM   #72
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The product has a certain capability. The wireless providers are not compatible. Remove availability from those markets, but do not accept responsibility for someone trying to put a square peg in a round hole.
The problem is, the wireless providers destroyed what 4G meant by branding their HSDPA+ and LTE networks "4G" when they're really not. Even worse the standard bowed to the wireless providers and changed what 4G really means. It's no wonder why countries are having problems. Hopefully when the 5G standard is developed they tell the wireless manufacturers to pound sand.
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Old Apr 1, 2012, 02:00 AM   #73
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Carphone Warehouse are continuing to mislead consumers though on their UK website : http://www.carphonewarehouse.com/mob...G-16GB/MONTHLY

A visit to the local store confirmed that they are telling customers that UK networks even support 4G! http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1587376/2012...ewarehouse.m4a
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Old Apr 1, 2012, 04:22 AM   #74
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Originally Posted by Sardonick007 View Post
People should be smart enough to know what services are available in their communities. Regardless of branding, this is just nonsense to hit Apple. If you're dumb enough to buy something without clearly knowing your areas capabilities, then it's on you. If you're also dumb enough to buy a 4G device knowing there is no 4G in your service area (yet or ever) then how is that Apples fault? 4G is a marketing ploy for every company using it and cell providers are piranhas, nobody is making them force truth in advertising. I wouldn't change the branding, I would pull the sales of the iPad in those counties and tell them to piss off. I'd be out of business and obviously that's why I don't own a multi-billion dollar company, but whatever, it's my opinion eh. Soon as they fix this, another series of BS will crop up and continue to spread like wildfire. Give them an inch, they'll take whatever they can get.

----------



Apple has a 4G capable device. If you're in a 4G market, you get 4G on your capable device. Apple never said that if you buy the new iPad, you will magically get 4G on your carrier regardless what their cellular product is. Now, if they had said "Buy this and your crap service turns into gold..." then yea, I'm with you. I never had any expectation that my iPad was going to be blazing fast on my POS Verizon network. It's not that much better for day to day activities than 3G was, but that's not Apples fault. It's like buying a Ferrari and blaming the company because the local municipality won't raise the speed limit.

2 Issues - where I live, I have never heard of any of the HSPA derived protocols being called 4G. Whatever marketing shenanigans that AT&T and T-Mobile play in the USA just ain't done here. To me 4G means LTE, even if this not not strictly following the ITU definitions.

Secondly there is no indication that the new iPad 4G will *ever* work in Europe. The frequencies are not allocated to LTE / 4G networks and getting new Regional frequency allocs. is a very slow winded process.

How would you feel if I was the *largest company in the USA* and I sold you a colour TV. I advertised it as having great colours - a standard called PAL, truely next gen compared to current TVs. You buy it, get it home and it only works as a black & white TV because in the US the standard for colour TVs is NTSC, not PAL (oh, and you did check if it was PAL B/G/I, due to the differering sound sub-carrier frequencies?). This is effectively what Apple has done to many of the markets outside of the USA, which don't have the 4G allocations that the qualcomm chipset uses.

I am a fairly well informed consumer (as well as an RF engineering consultant), but even to me the whole iPad 4G advertising was very misleading, and I think it is completely correct that Apple is being attacked about it.
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Old Apr 1, 2012, 05:17 AM   #75
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So it wouldn't be a big deal if say, Apple US started advertising the iPad with "Watch all your favorite BBC shows for free using iPlayer!"

It only applies to the UK but I mean, Netflix is almost as good for that here isn't it? Even if you have to pay.
You can use the (free) iPlayer outside the UK and watch free BBC Content. Just not much, as they want a sub soon.
If you like BBC (and ITV, Ch 4 and 5 ect) for free worldwide get the free App Filn on plus.
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