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Old Apr 5, 2012, 12:23 AM   #626
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Originally Posted by FX120 View Post
Generally, a bullet will not incapacitate someone instantly.
I listened to the raw audio from that one 911 call one of the neighbors made (link is on one of the first two pages @ 40 post count): if it is Martin screaming for help, his screams end instantly with the gunshot. If Zimmerman was under him, he would have had to move very quickly to get out from that position. That is, assuming Martin was not already lying on him, which would not be a sensible position for delivering a beating.

Yes, I am an armchair forensics analyst, with minimal data to "work" from.
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 01:39 AM   #627
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And you still continue to think this is about race with regard to Zimmerman. Wow. It's not. It's about a shoddy initial investigation that would have been swept under the rug if people had not gotten loud about it. IMO, the police were making judgements based on race here. That's at least one of the reasons this was being swept under the rug.
Can you honestly say with a straight face that Sharpton and pals would have made the trip and involved themselves in this Bonfire of the Vanities-meets-Paul Blart fiasco otherwise?

Why do you think the initial photos circulated showed Martin as a peachfuzzed 12 year old, only missing his sash of merit badges, and Zimmerman in a mugshot from seven years ago?

Why do you think NBC edited the tape of the 911 call?

Face it - the media is constantly on the lookout for the Great White Defendant, who can't fall back on the usual plethora of excuses: society made him do it, he's a product of his environment, etc. Simply evil as a tautology.

Had this been initially painted as a black-on-white crime, or black-on-black, or hispanic-on-black or vice versa, we wouldn't be sitting here arguing over it right now. One, because we've become desensitized as they're so commonplace that they're uninteresting, and two, because they don't fit the preferred narrative of racist-whitey-is-racist.

When it's all said and done, Trayvon Martin will be able to take his place right next to Tawana Brawley, Crystal Magnum, and the Jena 6.

You say the investigation was being swept under the rug (I presume because the DA's office declined to charge Zimmerman that night). One thing I think is being overlooked here, namely the difference between "we're not going to charge him" and "we're not going to charge him right now". If I send a steak back because it's underdone, that doesn't mean I don't want to eat a steak; that means I want to eat a steak that's been properly cooked. Nowhere have we heard that the police were told to stop investigating. What we have heard is that the DA's office didn't think that with the evidence in hand at the time, they could win a conviction.
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 01:46 AM   #628
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Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post
Can you honestly say with a straight face that Sharpton and pals would have made the trip and involved themselves in this Bonfire of the Vanities-meets-Paul Blart fiasco otherwise?

Why do you think the initial photos circulated showed Martin as a peachfuzzed 12 year old, only missing his sash of merit badges, and Zimmerman in a mugshot from seven years ago?

Why do you think NBC edited the tape of the 911 call?

Face it - the media is constantly on the lookout for the Great White Defendant, who can't fall back on the usual plethora of excuses: society made him do it, he's a product of his environment, etc. Simply evil as a tautology.

Had this been initially painted as a black-on-white crime, or black-on-black, or hispanic-on-black or vice versa, we wouldn't be sitting here arguing over it right now. One, because we've become desensitized as they're so commonplace that they're uninteresting, and two, because they don't fit the preferred narrative of racist-whitey-is-racist.

When it's all said and done, Trayvon Martin will be able to take his place right next to Tawana Brawley, Crystal Magnum, and the Jena 6.

You say the investigation was being swept under the rug (I presume because the DA's office declined to charge Zimmerman that night). One thing I think is being overlooked here, namely the difference between "we're not going to charge him" and "we're not going to charge him right now". If I send a steak back because it's underdone, that doesn't mean I don't want to eat a steak; that means I want to eat a steak that's been properly cooked. Nowhere have we heard that the police were told to stop investigating. What we have heard is that the DA's office didn't think that with the evidence in hand at the time, they could win a conviction.

On a further note - Had they not had enough evidence to convict and lost, they would be unable to bring charges in the future.. This little thing called double jeopardy...
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 02:15 AM   #629
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Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post
Can you honestly say with a straight face that Sharpton and pals would have made the trip and involved themselves in this Bonfire of the Vanities-meets-Paul Blart fiasco otherwise?
You have no idea as it has never happened to a white person.

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Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post
Had this been initially painted as a black-on-white crime, or black-on-black, or hispanic-on-black or vice versa, we wouldn't be sitting here arguing over it right now.
Except that you have no idea as its never happened.
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 02:33 AM   #630
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Perhaps someone could help me with physics? According to one eyewitness, it would seem that Trayvon Martin was on top of George Zimmerman, pounding on him or whatever, and Zimmerman was begging for help. The witness goes to get his phone, then there is a gunshot. It has been stated that Martin's body was lying face-down. This bothers me, in that I cannot see a way that it would work out like that.

If Martin fell on top of Zimmerman, for his body to be lying face-down, Zimmerman would either have had to slither out from under him (seems quite unlikely) or would have had to roll the body over after pushing it off (why?). Other things aside, the physics of the account does not seem to work out for me.
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Generally, a bullet will not incapacitate someone instantly.
It sure would leave a boatload of blood all over zimmermans shirt though.

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Old Apr 5, 2012, 03:36 AM   #631
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Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post
Can you honestly say with a straight face that Sharpton and pals would have made the trip and involved themselves in this Bonfire of the Vanities-meets-Paul Blart fiasco otherwise?
i don't particularly care for Sharpton and his ilk but this case isn't about them. And public outrage preceded their involvement, much of the public recognizes them for the blowhards that they are.

Their involvement in no way changes the nature of what happened and how it was wrong.
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 07:02 AM   #632
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 07:25 AM   #633
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I'd rather cast for Dexter if he gets away with it...
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 07:33 AM   #634
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American journalism is so politically motivated on both sides that it's just disgusting.
Journalism. Sorry, I am unfamiliar with that word.

But both sides pay well, for they come with a built-in attentive audience for their "product".
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 08:41 AM   #635
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well as long as they weren't shot in the lungs, or the heart... well really anything ribcage and above.
Even then.... There are documented cases of the assailant still fighting for 10-20 seconds after the bullet had pierced the heart and or lung.

But that is really neither here nor there.

I am wondering in this scenario, the fight is on, Zimmerman is able to get out from underneath Martin. Zimmerman pulls the gun out and Martin, see's it and turns around and tries to get away when he is shot.
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 09:01 AM   #636
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Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post
Can you honestly say with a straight face that Sharpton and pals would have made the trip and involved themselves in this Bonfire of the Vanities-meets-Paul Blart fiasco otherwise?

Why do you think the initial photos circulated showed Martin as a peachfuzzed 12 year old, only missing his sash of merit badges, and Zimmerman in a mugshot from seven years ago?

Why do you think NBC edited the tape of the 911 call?

Face it - the media is constantly on the lookout for the Great White Defendant, who can't fall back on the usual plethora of excuses: society made him do it, he's a product of his environment, etc. Simply evil as a tautology.

Had this been initially painted as a black-on-white crime, or black-on-black, or hispanic-on-black or vice versa, we wouldn't be sitting here arguing over it right now. One, because we've become desensitized as they're so commonplace that they're uninteresting, and two, because they don't fit the preferred narrative of racist-whitey-is-racist.

When it's all said and done, Trayvon Martin will be able to take his place right next to Tawana Brawley, Crystal Magnum, and the Jena 6.

You say the investigation was being swept under the rug (I presume because the DA's office declined to charge Zimmerman that night). One thing I think is being overlooked here, namely the difference between "we're not going to charge him" and "we're not going to charge him right now". If I send a steak back because it's underdone, that doesn't mean I don't want to eat a steak; that means I want to eat a steak that's been properly cooked. Nowhere have we heard that the police were told to stop investigating. What we have heard is that the DA's office didn't think that with the evidence in hand at the time, they could win a conviction.
a steak cannot be underdone.
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 10:25 AM   #637
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It sure would leave a boatload of blood all over zimmermans shirt though.

Theoretically, a bullet could follow a path that would tear the heart muscle without puncturing the heart, go through the lung, and miss the big trunk blood vessels. This would instantly incapacitate the victim without resulting in boatloads of blood. And from the one 911 call, the gunshot served as a period to punctuate the end of the screams. It was basically over instantly.
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 10:30 AM   #638
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Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post

When it's all said and done, Trayvon Martin will be able to take his place right next to Tawana Brawley, Crystal Magnum, and the Jena 6.
How can you say this with a straight face? Trayvon Martin isn't alive to share with us his side of the story...and he certainly isn't the one making the accusations, false or otherwise.

And for every case like Tawana Brawley, there is a case like Susan Smith. Remember what her original claim was?
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 10:41 AM   #639
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Originally Posted by Moyank24 View Post
How can you say this with a straight face? Trayvon Martin isn't alive to share with us his side of the story...and he certainly isn't the one making the accusations, false or otherwise.

And for every case like Tawana Brawley, there is a case like Susan Smith. Remember what her original claim was?
The absolute callousness the right has shown in this case is nothing less than astonishing. All anyone has asked for here is a thorough investigation, because the initial one was less than acceptable and that is quite obvious from the evidence gathered since. It's as if the right does not want proper procedure to be followed. I would be horrified if it weren't so typical of them.

Last edited by leekohler; Apr 5, 2012 at 01:43 PM.
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 01:21 PM   #640
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Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum View Post
Can you honestly say with a straight face that Sharpton and pals would have made the trip and involved themselves in this Bonfire of the Vanities-meets-Paul Blart fiasco otherwise?
That Sharpton has involved himself doesn't change the case at hand, it just politicizes it. But, we should be able to look past his involvement.

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Why do you think the initial photos circulated showed Martin as a peachfuzzed 12 year old, only missing his sash of merit badges, and Zimmerman in a mugshot from seven years ago?
Well, these were the photos they had. When someone dies or is involved in a crime there's a rush to find images of them. With Zimmerman, one of the first available images was his mugshot. With Martin, the image was one from his family.

Similarly, when Jared Lee Loughner shot Giffords, there were two images of him: the first, the deranged mugshot from PMCO and the second, him pointing at a sign at the Tucson Book Fair. Had the family responded to media requests, the first image of Loughner might have been the one from the Tucson Book Fair.

Rather than appealing to conspiracy, it would help if you acknowledge that using the term "the media" to describe hundreds of outlets working in multiple genres is as useful as calling a shark "the sea."

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Why do you think NBC edited the tape of the 911 call?
Carelessness, a poor understanding of what editing the tape would do to context. Assume NBC wanted to alter the story, how does one bad actor among dozens evidence a conspiracy among "the media?"

Quote:
Face it - the media is constantly on the lookout for the Great White Defendant, who can't fall back on the usual plethora of excuses: society made him do it, he's a product of his environment, etc. Simply evil as a tautology.
Good to see the direct appeal to conspiracy.

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Had this been initially painted as a black-on-white crime, or black-on-black, or hispanic-on-black or vice versa, we wouldn't be sitting here arguing over it right now. One, because we've become desensitized as they're so commonplace that they're uninteresting, and two, because they don't fit the preferred narrative of racist-whitey-is-racist.
I still think the more interesting story is how Florida's law may have hamstrung a police investigation. The race thing is increasingly an obsession of the right and a distraction.

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When it's all said and done, Trayvon Martin will be able to take his place right next to Tawana Brawley, Crystal Magnum, and the Jena 6.
Except that unlike Brawley who made up her crimes, Martin was actually shot and killed. The question is why.

Quote:
You say the investigation was being swept under the rug (I presume because the DA's office declined to charge Zimmerman that night). One thing I think is being overlooked here, namely the difference between "we're not going to charge him" and "we're not going to charge him right now".
Yes, but the refusal to charge is only part of the problem, there's also the lack of a serious forensic examination. If police didn't feel they could investigate and hold Zimmerman, they may have failed to gather evidence. Without evidence, there's little for the DA to charge Zimmerman with because of the structure of the Florida law. Therefore, Zimmerman may have gotten away with a murder by using the law in a way it was not designed.

This is the important part of the story.
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Old Apr 5, 2012, 08:56 PM   #641
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Originally Posted by FX120 View Post
Generally, a bullet will not incapacitate someone instantly.
From a handgun, this is not always true. Generally, a handgun bullet will NOT incapacite "instantly". Sometimes not at all, even with the correct defensive loading (a jacketed hollow point) and the 'correct' size caliber (.38 through .45). In fact, multiple handgun shots may not even incapacitate, and this is why you see more and more police being armed with shotguns and "assault" rifles because officers would shoot a dangerous suspect, and the suspect would still be able to fight and kill officers (see the "Miami Shootout of 1986"). While handguns have larger projectiles, the shorter barrel and lesser powder makes them carry far less energy than even smaller rifle calibers. The consequence is less hydrostatic shock. You hear about people like 50 Cent being shot 9 times in the chest and living because most handguns do not carry enough hydrostatic shock to cause immediate, indirect, organ failure. Psychological shock and mass blood loss are perhaps the most common reasons an attack ends when a pistol is used. Now of course a handgun bullet CAN cause an immediate stoppage, but this is uncommon unless it is an exceptionally good shot which hit a specific vital such as penetrating through the upper spinal column. Even then, the lack of sufficient hydrostatic shock to cause immediate (indirect) organ damage is lower. (The exception to this is a 5.7x28mm, which is a pistol round that carries exceptional hydrostatic shock (which is the caliber that the President of the United States is guarded with and it may have been the caliber that was used by DEVGRU on Bin Laden)). What does all this equate to? More than likely, if that single shot was almost instantly fatal, then the gun may have been as close as point blank range given the precise aiming involved which would likely not have happened from a distance. Ballistic experts should have considered all this in their report. And I, too, agree the account sounds somewhat off. However, memory of traumatic events may obviously be prone to some accuracy problems.
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Old Apr 6, 2012, 10:13 AM   #642
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Face it - the media is constantly on the lookout for the Great White Defendant
I feel that it's worth noting that the title of this thread and the original post in no way mentions Martin's race.
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Old Apr 6, 2012, 10:36 AM   #643
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i don't particularly care for Sharpton and his ilk but this case isn't about them. And public outrage preceded their involvement, much of the public recognizes them for the blowhards that they are.

Their involvement in no way changes the nature of what happened and how it was wrong.
Exactly how I feel about it.

His name gets trotted out to nullify anything that may have actually happened. Sure there have been cases where Sharpton and company have defended/profited-from less-than-believable individuals. But that doesn't mean it is the case every time.



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Old Apr 9, 2012, 11:28 AM   #644
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An update...

Special Prosecutor will not use grand jury in Trayvon Martin investigation

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[Updated at 12:11 p.m. ET] State Attorney Angela Corey, appointed as a special prosecutor in the February shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, has decided against sending the case to a grand jury, her office said Monday.

"The decision should not be considered a factor in the final determination of the case," Corey's office said in a statement.

The grand jury, set to convene on Tuesday, was previously scheduled by the former prosecutor.

Corey previously said she has not used grand jury's in cases like this and added that from the time she was appointed she said she may not need a grand jury.

The decision about whether or not to charge George Zimmerman in the case now rests with prosecutors.

"At this time, the investigation continues and there will be no further comment from this office," in the statement.

The decision means that the timetable for any possible charges remains up in the air.

"We had hoped she had enough evidence without the need to convene a grand jury,” Ben Crump, the attorney for the Martin family said about Corey. “The family is trying to have patience and faith through all of this."

Crump said they are hoping for charges and an arrest as soon as possible.

"We know we want that day to come,” Crump said. “We want a very public trial so the evidence can come out and show people that the justice system works for everybody.

Crump added that he believed the evidence that has come out has “made it clear” that charges should be filed, without the need of a grand jury.

Martin ventured out from his father's fiancee's home in Sanford to get a snack at a nearby convenience store. As he walked home with a bag of Skittles and an Arizona iced tea, he was shot and killed by Zimmerman.

Sanford police questioned Zimmerman and released him without charges.

From there, the case has evolved into opposing allegations from Zimmerman's supporters, Martin's family and authorities.

Zimmerman says he killed Martin in self-defense after the teen punched him and slammed his head on the sidewalk, according to an Orlando Sentinel report that was later confirmed by Sanford police.

The case has triggered a nationwide debate about Florida's "stand your ground" law - which allows people to use deadly force anywhere they feel a reasonable threat of death or serious injury - and race in America.
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Old Apr 9, 2012, 12:09 PM   #645
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SANFORD, Fla. — Two sources told WFTV on Monday that gunman George Zimmerman could be arrested this week, and that a Grand Jury will not meet on Tuesday.
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Old Apr 9, 2012, 02:01 PM   #646
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She's scared the grand jury will refuse indict.
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Old Apr 9, 2012, 02:03 PM   #647
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She's scared the grand jury will refuse indict.
I was thinking the same thing. This way we waste money on trial that will never convict him anyway.
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Old Apr 9, 2012, 02:39 PM   #648
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She's scared the grand jury will refuse indict.
If you don't need a grand jury why waste the time?
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Old Apr 9, 2012, 02:40 PM   #649
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If you don't need a grand jury why waste the time?

If the evidence was strong enough against Zimmerman (so strong they don't need a grand jury), then I think he would have been arrested some time ago.
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Old Apr 9, 2012, 03:00 PM   #650
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I imagine we are going to see him arrested, watch a botched case, and then end up without a conviction and a lot of pissed off people. Its going to be hard to convict without a reasonable doubt.
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