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les24preludes

macrumors regular
Feb 6, 2011
114
5
Hello Jolly Jimmy!

I just re-checked the settings in iTunes and I had the equaliser on but flat - that may have slightly dulled the sound. I'm getting the impression that with it off there may be little perceptible difference.

As for the volume setting in COG, I could see it in version 0.7 but in 0.8 it doesn't seem to have any visual indication of where the volume is, so I can't find any way of seeing its default setting. Am I missing something - should there be a volume display, and what's its default setting?

Advice appreciated!

Andy

PS - this is absolutely nothing to do with snake oil. I have nothing to prove or to sell. We can question the audibility of sounds at the threshold of hearing, but snake oil is quackery and fraud, and that's a whole different ball game. If you're interested in psychophysics it has a very long history going back to experiments by Fechner and Wundt on the threshold (limen) of perception of sounds etc. from 1860 onwards.
 
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TMRaven

macrumors 68020
Nov 5, 2009
2,099
1
That's interesting. I know that with the slightest adjustment on the iTunes EQ it adds a nasty amount of harmonic distortion across the entire audio spectrum, but I personally havn't tried it with it on but completely flat. Will have to A/B that some time.
 

Jolly Jimmy

macrumors 65816
Dec 13, 2007
1,357
3
The latest version of Cog I found on the website was 0.07. When the app opens afresh the volume returns to the default 100%.
 

les24preludes

macrumors regular
Feb 6, 2011
114
5
http://cogx.org/development.php

COG Version 0.08. It's the nightly build.

Or instead of going to that link you could go into your Cog preferences, go to the Updates section, change the Update Feed to "Nightly", then ask Cog to "Check for Updates..." Cog will grab that latest version linked to above, install it automatically, and allow you to relaunch Cog.
 

Jolly Jimmy

macrumors 65816
Dec 13, 2007
1,357
3
There is a visual indication of the volume level in the latest version for me (0-400%), but it no longer defaults to 100% between relaunches.
 

les24preludes

macrumors regular
Feb 6, 2011
114
5
This is really useful guys - thanks for helping. I found the sound icon in COG and clicked on it and it has a vertical slider. Could you tell me what 100% and 400% actually means? Percentage of what? And how do you determine the optimum position? That would be great.

This may be something to do with why Audirvana flashed "CPU over" when I tried it?

Cheers

andy
 

Jolly Jimmy

macrumors 65816
Dec 13, 2007
1,357
3
Could you tell me what 100% and 400% actually means? Percentage of what? And how do you determine the optimum position?

It's the volume level. 100% is where it should be. This corresponds to iTunes' maximum of 100%.

I'd say it's highly likely that the difference you're hearing between the two apps is down to volume discrepancies.
 

les24preludes

macrumors regular
Feb 6, 2011
114
5
Well, I've been listening to iTunes and COG side by side for a few days now, and the more I listen the more I'm clear in my mind that COG sounds cleaner, more detailed and has better tone to instruments.

The frustrating thing is that COG doesn't play playlists correctly - it seems to play them in a random order. I've no idea how to fix this - I believe it was a bug that was never fixed before the project went belly up.

Now I'm addicted to the sound quality of COG, but I can't get it to work properly. Bummer.

So now I'm back on the search for a music player with the same sound quality as COG but which is relatively bug-free and does what it is supposed to do.

Feeling very frustrated right now!

Andy
 

Jolly Jimmy

macrumors 65816
Dec 13, 2007
1,357
3
I just recorded the output from iTunes and Cog playing the same file into Logic, zoomed right in and sample aligned them. They nulled perfectly upon reversing the polarity of one of the tracks. Hence proving they are bit for bit exactly the same.
 
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royaljerry

macrumors newbie
Aug 22, 2011
4
0
Budapest, Hungary
I just recorded the output from iTunes and Cog playing the same file into Logic, zoomed right in and sample aligned them. They nulled perfectly upon reversing the polarity of one of the tracks. Hence proving they are bit for bit exactly the same.

Jimmy, all the girls and guys out there who expect the opposite are the victims of some well known (socio)psychological effects (“I've paid for this app, so it must be better than a free one”, “I have studied music for five years / have good ears, so I must hear the differences”, etc). It reminds me the '90s, when some freaks showed me how to “belt” a CD with small colored paper dots to improve sound quality. Of course those dots had no effect at all, they just wanted to believe there was (probably because they've had already “belted” a few hundreds of records).

Apart from these funny but usual reactions (ref.: Elliot Aronson), the decoding process of an mp3/flac/alac etc. file relies on some basic (C, C++, ObjC) libraries, that are used by the players, so programmatically they give the same effect in sound quality, period. How you can fine tune it with equalizers and other spells – is the other side, but the basic quality is the same. All in all: I personally totally agree with you.

What the player itself concerns, and if there's a better one than the default iTunes on the Mac: I have to report you sadly – after switching to a Mac 6 months ago and looking for a better music player alternative – that I could not find any, that fulfilled my needs or did not have any severe bugs outside of my interval of tolerance. Here are my reasons – as a music enthusiast who has his collection mostly in FLAC on his NAS (so that way his wife can listen to the same songs), and belongs to the few ones who still buy CDs (well... and sometimes downloads too).

1) I have tried Clementine – it worked well, played almost every formats, but it crashed every second time it was run. It became more and more annoying after a while, so I began to look for alternatives.

2) I have tried Songbird – it worked well, until I wanted to update the tags in the audio files, but the app still remembered the old ones (caching problem?) still after restarting the app, the computer, having a bath, or sleeping, waking up next day and taking a walk on the streets. After trying to alter those damned old tags, I tended to suspect those tags would survive World War III too.

3) I have tried Cog, that doesn't support playlists, which is a fatal problem in my case. It was not a good omen too that the player's page shows February 15, 2008 as the freshest news – I wish it would still February 15, 2008 when the people on Earth were in a much better mood, we didn't have this economical crisis yet, and our prime minister wasn't called that f...ng Viktor Orbán (people of the World, please forgive us, I personally didn't vote for him).

4) I have tried Winamp for Mac which is joke.

5) I have tried Enqueue which would have been the best player among these ones above: “Enqueue Is the First Music Player That Could Actually Replace iTunes on the Mac” as the Lifehacker advertises it, and it's almost true, or better to say, it can be almost true sometime, but not now. It didn't accept drag'n'drop, and I couldn't manage to control it with user defined global shortcuts, plus it didn't show any notifications (thru' Growl, or in any other way). But I'll take a look at it in a year, and revisit it again.

6) I have tried Decibel (yes, I have downloaded it from a torrent site to test it, it's not free). It doesn't support playlists, but handles a wide range of lossless formats, which is good, but in general the player offers very few features.

7) Last, I have tried some really exotic apps, that were fun, but wouldn't provide a usable alternative to iTunes. They are small, usually play one playlist, and although they do this job well, but this is not what I need on a Saturday morning after a cup of coffee and choosing which music set would fit my needs for today's design works.

All in all: I took a deep breath, started to be friends with iTunes and decided to convert the FLAC files of my music collection to m4a (ALAC). This step forces me to revisit and correct the tags in them, so it may have good aspects – apart from the fact that this process would take a few weeks (considering ~300GB and the retagging procedure). Yes, I have put down the weapons, and started to “look at the bright side of life”: my Apple Remote will work with it, I'll have a searchable library of songs, can have a preview of a song with the spacebar in Finder, and hopefully some music related utilities will co-work with iTunes as well.
 
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Jolly Jimmy

macrumors 65816
Dec 13, 2007
1,357
3
It reminds me the '90s, when some freaks showed me how to “belt” a CD with small colored paper dots to improve sound quality.

This is too funny! I read something similar a while ago on another forum about colouring in certain part of CDs in permanent green (not red or blue mind you!) marker. Hilarious!

the decoding process of an mp3/flac/alac etc. file relies on some basic (C, C++, ObjC) libraries, that are used by the players, so programmatically they give the same effect in sound quality, period.

As you say, all these apps are tapping into the same frameworks, so fundamentally there's nothing that would make one sound different than the other.

------

Apart from that, great reviews. I've tried most of all the others, but I always ended up with iTunes.
 

dublinus

macrumors newbie
Feb 9, 2012
3
0
I don't have anything useful to say. But this thread has been alive for 4 years, and it would be a shame to see it go now...
 

nanoboy

macrumors member
Jan 30, 2008
93
0
Edinburgh, United Kingdom
Jimmy, all the girls and guys out there who expect the opposite are the victims of some well known (socio)psychological effects (“I've paid for this app, so it must be better than a free one”, “I have studied music for five years / have good ears, so I must hear the differences”, etc). It reminds me the '90s, when some freaks showed me how to “belt” a CD with small colored paper dots to improve sound quality. Of course those dots had no effect at all, they just wanted to believe there was (probably because they've had already “belted” a few hundreds of records).

Apart from these funny but usual reactions (ref.: Elliot Aronson), the decoding process of an mp3/flac/alac etc. file relies on some basic (C, C++, ObjC) libraries, that are used by the players, so programmatically they give the same effect in sound quality, period. How you can fine tune it with equalizers and other spells – is the other side, but the basic quality is the same. All in all: I personally totally agree with you.

What the player itself concerns, and if there's a better one than the default iTunes on the Mac: I have to report you sadly – after switching to a Mac 6 months ago and looking for a better music player alternative – that I could not find any, that fulfilled my needs or did not have any severe bugs outside of my interval of tolerance. Here are my reasons – as a music enthusiast who has his collection mostly in FLAC on his NAS (so that way his wife can listen to the same songs), and belongs to the few ones who still buy CDs (well... and sometimes downloads too).

1) I have tried Clementine – it worked well, played almost every formats, but it crashed every second time it was run. It became more and more annoying after a while, so I began to look for alternatives.

2) I have tried Songbird – it worked well, until I wanted to update the tags in the audio files, but the app still remembered the old ones (caching problem?) still after restarting the app, the computer, having a bath, or sleeping, waking up next day and taking a walk on the streets. After trying to alter those damned old tags, I tended to suspect those tags would survive World War III too.

3) I have tried Cog, that doesn't support playlists, which is a fatal problem in my case. It was not a good omen too that the player's page shows February 15, 2008 as the freshest news – I wish it would still February 15, 2008 when the people on Earth were in a much better mood, we didn't have this economical crisis yet, and our prime minister wasn't called that f...ng Viktor Orbán (people of the World, please forgive us, I personally didn't vote for him).

4) I have tried Winamp for Mac which is joke.

5) I have tried Enqueue which would have been the best player among these ones above: “Enqueue Is the First Music Player That Could Actually Replace iTunes on the Mac” as the Lifehacker advertises it, and it's almost true, or better to say, it can be almost true sometime, but not now. It didn't accept drag'n'drop, and I couldn't manage to control it with user defined global shortcuts, plus it didn't show any notifications (thru' Growl, or in any other way). But I'll take a look at it in a year, and revisit it again.

6) I have tried Decibel (yes, I have downloaded it from a torrent site to test it, it's not free). It doesn't support playlists, but handles a wide range of lossless formats, which is good, but in general the player offers very few features.

7) Last, I have tried some really exotic apps, that were fun, but wouldn't provide a usable alternative to iTunes. They are small, usually play one playlist, and although they do this job well, but this is not what I need on a Saturday morning after a cup of coffee and choosing which music set would fit my needs for today's design works.

All in all: I took a deep breath, started to be friends with iTunes and decided to convert the FLAC files of my music collection to m4a (ALAC). This step forces me to revisit and correct the tags in them, so it may have good aspects – apart from the fact that this process would take a few weeks (considering ~300GB and the retagging procedure). Yes, I have put down the weapons, and started to “look at the bright side of life”: my Apple Remote will work with it, I'll have a searchable library of songs, can have a preview of a song with the spacebar in Finder, and hopefully some music related utilities will co-work with iTunes as well.

Thanks for the summary. I've just bought a new amplifier with a dedicated digital analogue converter (DAC), so I was looking for a new player to handle FLAC. So like you, I'll just stick with iTunes and convert FLAC to m4a. I have always been an iTunes user and never bothered to try anything else, as it seamlessly syncs with my iPhone. There are a few things I'd like to change (e.g. queuing in iTunes DJ, deleting songs in iTunes DJ, navigation), but generally happy with the library management in iTunes.

I like Vox (the new 0.3 beta) a lot for its simplicity clean design, but like you said, it only plays one playlist. But at least now I can just drag and drop a folder with FLAC and plays it in Vox (for new incoming songs i haven't heard yet), and it can export to Apple lossless easily.

I guess, ultimately I want a player that'd allow me to discover tracks that i like (when i play on shuffle), and delete the ones I don't like easily, and create a growing playlist if my "Liked" ones so I can put them on shuffle without even thinking about it, as background music, when I work.
 

royaljerry

macrumors newbie
Aug 22, 2011
4
0
Budapest, Hungary
Following my last post on sticking with iTunes, I've just discovered this awesome page:

http://dougscripts.com/itunes/

Some really useful Applescripts to power up your iTunes, I especially the batch changing track names / artist / album by the number of front or back characters. Very nice. And a lot of other ones too.

I have installed 8-10 of them, and use 2 or 3 of those scripts on a daily basis. Not only they're awesome ones, but widened my AppleScript knowledge a lot. So a big respect to Doug, whoever he is. :)

What the music listening habits concerns, I think we listen to new albums almost the same way, the only difference is that I had to force myself to strictly stop buying/downloading/copying music from anywhere until a certain time beacuse of two reasons:

1) If I want to know and enjoy what I have intead of just storing it on my computer, I first need to listen to it. At the moment there are tons of old and new records waiting on my NAS to be discovered. I easily can say „Oh bro, you're a looser, I have all the bootlegs of this band”, but if I don't listen to it, it's useless. So first I'll inspect my own collection, and after a while I'll get new items too.

2) The converting/tagging process requires a – maybe passive, but constant – music experience: I cannot tag a music as „Alternative” until I hear it. So I always push my newly converted music to iTunes, start it, and as soon as it ends (and I have time beside my constant freelance work) I tag it/delete it (if it – well... – was accidentally downloaded from somewhere, and the cover art looked much better than what the case contained. :)

By the way, I have created a pretty strong, strict and coherent tagging standard, so I always tag my ALAC files that way. It includes subgenres and mods too beside the usual ones (album, artist, etc.).
 
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qbek

macrumors newbie
Feb 23, 2012
1
0
Hi there everyone!

First of all I'd like to say that on my equipment I can hear the difference in sound quality between different audio players, but it's very subtle and as such rather insignificant. All seems to come down to avoiding all kinds of correction (equalization etc.) and format conversion (resampling). The tricky part is that the OSes usually do that if not properly configured.

I've started building my music collection years ago on windows using flac for lossless and mp3 for lossy compression and foobar2000 as the player of choice. Last year I've decided to use Mac mini as the universal source in my system and after testing A LOT of Mac OS X software I've settled with a little program called bitperfect playing iTunes database of lossless files which I've converted to alac.

I don't want to mix my lossless and lossy collection in one library so I need a lightweight player for late-night and/or ;) party listening of single files, structured folders and internet streams. On windows it would be obvious: foobar2000. I had no idea it would be so hard to find on Mac OS X.

So now my question (and examples of programs that I've found):
Does anyone know a Mac OS X audio player which...
1. Is standalone NOT iTunes add-on like pure music, amarra or bitperfect;
2. Changes audio device sampling rate according to the played file NOT resample audio data (decibel, vox, fidelia, audirvana);
3. Has a functional playlist editor with the ability to add (drag&drop) folder with SUBFOLDERS with music files and sort them by path (decibel, audirvana, fidelia, vlc);
4. Supports apple remote WITH the ability to change internal volume in the player through the remote (vox, vlc); preferably dithered volume control and not over 100% (audirvana+);
5. Supports streaming internet radios (vlc);


As you can see there's no common denominator in my list.
Can anyone help?
 

mossa

macrumors newbie
Apr 5, 2012
1
0
let's end this one, once and for all. there is no way to compare mac and windows. winamp, for those who have used it, is probably the best player ever because of its simplicity. but it does not organize your life and music like itunes. so it really depends what you need or want out of a software.

after a monster search for the equivalent of winamp on mac, there is just nothing out there. i really wanted just a player, nothing more.i use vlc for now.
 

blipmusic

macrumors 6502
Feb 4, 2011
250
23
Do any of these iTunes alternatives offer any noticeable improvements in audio quality? My setup is toslink out -> baresford dac -> audioengine a5s, wondering if it's worth switching over.

USB will be bit-perfect too.

I tried BitPerfect when it was on the cheap with my portable headphone amp/USB dac and it did work, though I think most of you are far better suited than me when it comes to judging wether it is "necessary"/meaningful or not.

Uses iTunes as a front-end for better or worse, though.

EDIT: Seems it was briefly mentioned already, sorry.
 
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Famous Mortimer

macrumors newbie
Apr 8, 2012
2
0
I've been reading this thread with interest, as I'm having some trouble with my music.

I've come back to Macs after 5 or so years away, and have a splendid iMac which does everything I want, apart from play music properly. I've got a fairly large music collection (60,000 or so files) and the other players all struggle. Play, Clementine and Songbird all seem promising but crash, or just don't seem to do what you need them to do.

So, I have two options, that I can see. Convert all my FLAC files to m4a and just use iTunes, or go for one of the paid options on the app store, like Enqueue. I just want to be able to tag my files and see my entire collection in the organiser.

So, any advice?
 

EvilC5

macrumors 6502a
Sep 22, 2010
504
0
Hanover MD
I have also monitored this thread for a while I picked up 2 audio engine d1's for each of my mini's. I set he 1st one for the 50 plus hour burn in and with the audio engine a2's I can tell a little difference.

My main setup is i5 mini to d1 to onkyo tx-nr709 to adcom 555 to martin logan accent I's. I haven not burnt it in 50 hours but it sounded pretty good to my ears. I bought bit perfect today and I hear a very slight difference but not what I was expecting. My ears are certainly far from expert, but I know what I like to hear.

I guess it's all very subjective.
 

BlackMangoTree

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2010
896
2
I've been reading this thread with interest, as I'm having some trouble with my music.

I've come back to Macs after 5 or so years away, and have a splendid iMac which does everything I want, apart from play music properly. I've got a fairly large music collection (60,000 or so files) and the other players all struggle. Play, Clementine and Songbird all seem promising but crash, or just don't seem to do what you need them to do.

So, I have two options, that I can see. Convert all my FLAC files to m4a and just use iTunes, or go for one of the paid options on the app store, like Enqueue. I just want to be able to tag my files and see my entire collection in the organiser.

So, any advice?

Use XLD to decode your FLAC's to ALAC's very simple and easy to do. With a new iMac the job will just take a few hours. All metadata will be carried over including artwork and XLD wil even delete the FLAC for you.
 
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