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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,761
10,890
"The agency model does not work for virtual and meta products."

You can keep saying something over and over, but without any evidence to back up your point you just sound like a broken record.

I don't know whether wholesale or agency models are better for virtual goods, but traditionally prices have been based on supply and demand. When supply is unlimited, what natural market force is there to increase or even maintain pricing? The fact that the wholesale model has worked for food, doesn't mean it's the best solution (for suppliers as well as consumers) for digital goods.
 

Daveoc64

macrumors 601
Jan 16, 2008
4,074
92
Bristol, UK
When supply is unlimited, what natural market force is there to increase or even maintain pricing?

Demand.

It's very rare that paper books sell out, yet prices still drop.

It's obvious that a Harry Potter book will sell well on the first day of release. After a few years? Not so much.

Amazon adjusts the prices of non-agency books based on how many people are buying them. If a book's not selling well, they drop the price - that might prompt more sales and the price goes back up.
 

BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,761
10,890

As an aside, I think it's interesting that Amazon's self publishing pricing model practically eliminates pricing between $10 and $20*, which the major publishers seem to view as a sweet spot based on their pricing with Apple.

*Based on the fact that you can get 70% royalty on books listed for up to $9.99, but only 35% on books over $9.99. To make the same $7 you get for a $9.99 book, you'd have to price your book at $20 with the 35% royalty.

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Demand.

It's very rare that paper books sell out, yet prices still drop.

It's obvious that a Harry Potter book will sell well on the first day of release. After a few years? Not so much.

Amazon adjusts the prices of non-agency books based on how many people are buying them. If a book's not selling well, they drop the price - that might prompt more sales and the price goes back up.

Maybe. But when you eliminate half the equation (supply vs demand), things are different.

Interestingly, despite your example, it was best sellers that Amazon chose as loss leaders.
 

Limboistik

macrumors regular
Aug 11, 2011
193
5
Supply supplicates demand.

Very rarely do you get supply that GENERATES demand, which is what Apple did with the iPhone and iPad & co. They created a new market, for something people didn't know they wanted.
 

Rocketman

macrumors 603
*Based on the fact that you can get 70% royalty on books listed for up to $9.99, but only 35% on books over $9.99. To make the same $7 you get for a $9.99 book, you'd have to price your book at $20 with the 35% royalty.
As someone who sells books, both physical and virtual already, and someone who signed up for the Kindle program so i could see ALL its terms, I consider THIS price fixing. My book is my property not Amazon's.

The engineered "price gap" by Amazon eliminated the price points most books are sold at and the price points I prefer most for my style of books.

I guess the only thing going for it from a DOJ perspective is nobody outside Amazon had a meeting on it they can prove.

But Apple engineered its own system that publishers had an up or down decision over. But there were no engineered "price gaps" so in effect there is less price fixing on the Apple model vs. the Amazon model.

In economics there is a concept of price takers and price makers. If you are buying corn today to feed your cattle you are a price taker. You go to the store occasionally and pay whatever the price is that day.

Book publishers and hardware makers are price makers. They set an arbitrary price for their product that hopefully is high enough to cover costs and generate a profit, and low enough to not scare away too many potential buyers so you at least reach breakeven or better.

The Apple book system allows manufacturers (publishers) to be price makers. That is not collusion. Every book style is a different price according to many factors beyond the cost of delivery. The complexity of the book, the salary of the author, private contracts of splits between author, marketing, manufacturing. Less than 15% of the cost of a book is the media. The rest is the revenue and dealer markup. Agency or wholesale.

For the confused among us, agency is approximately the same as commission. Just like real estate.

Rocketman
 
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EssentialParado

macrumors 65816
Feb 17, 2005
1,162
48
Daveoc64, beg my pardon while I raise a few flags about your posts in this thread, because I have not yet seen that you fully understand the economical differences of the wholesale and agency models, or economies in general to be quite frank. You've ignored all the comments (including questions directed specifically at you) that have been related to the wider economical ramifications of the wholesale model compared to the agency model. All you've been doing is posting short-sighted arguments that "the wholesale model is better because it results in lower prices", without showing that you actually understand why they're lower in the first place.

Out of curiosity, can I ask what you do as a job? I'm highly dubious you've ever worked in any type of business.
 

vrDrew

macrumors 65816
Jan 31, 2010
1,376
13,412
Midlife, Midwest
Interestingly, despite your example, it was best sellers that Amazon chose as loss leaders.

And that's what made (makes) Amazon's policy so damaging to publishers.

The Best-Selling Fiction business works like this: Most popular authors have their devoted fans. People who anxiously await the publication of their next novel: The latest Patricia Cornwall or Stephen King, etc. And in the past these books were first published in hardcover, with a gap of anywhere from six months to a year before they came out in paperback. Fans would pay the $25 or $30 to buy these hardcover books, providing a decent profit for both the publisher and the retailer. The paperback edition, when they came out, would be sold to casual readers, people at airports, etc. Still providing a decent royalty stream for the author, but considerably less revenue and profit for the publisher.

The e-book business destroyed that model. By selling new releases at $10, it not only gave devoted fans a chance to read their favorite authors' latest work for a fraction of the hardcover price, it also all but eliminated their need to even go into a bricks-and-mortar bookstore. Which in turn was destroying retailers "impulse" sales of book lights, notebooks, magazines, etc.

The book publishers had accepted that they were going to get less revenue from e-books. They rationalized this by a) accepting they wouldn't have the expense of printing and shipping physical books and b) hoping that lower prices would make up some of that up in volume. But by pricing new releases at ten dollars, less than the cover price of most trade paperbacks, Amazon was successfully destroying publishers' physical retail channel.

Apple's "Agency" model worked well. It not only raised retail prices for new releases to at least make them competitive with paperbacks; but it also allowed other retailers of digital books (such as Barnes & Noble and Google) to sell new titles at a profit. This, in turn, meant that the publishers didn't simply have to accept whatever terms Amazon (as a near monopoly buyer) would have dictated to them.

Of course, in terms of the overall book market, things are more complicated still. Because, contrary to what most people think, publishers and retailers don't actually make that much selling best-sellers. They actually make most of their profit selling "back catalog" titles: A $10 copy of Catcher In The Rye or (better yet) A Christmas Carol (out of copyright, so no author royalties to pay.) But if you look at Amazon's e-book listings, you'll find that in most cases, they are selling the Kindle version for considerably more than they sell the physical book.

Amazon was hoping to "hook" people on buying the Kindle version by offering super-low prices on best-sellers. And hoped they wouldn't notice they were paying far over the market on everything else.
 

Tarzanman

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2010
1,304
15
What "evidence" have you seen that assures you Apple will lose? All Apple are doing is using the same model as the App Store.

If the DoJ does in fact have the emails and records of meetings mentioned in this article h ttp://www.theverge.com/2012/4/11/2941053/inside-the-dojs-ebook-price-fixing-case-against-apple-an-analysis ), then they will easily win the case.

While it may have appeared that eBook prices rose in price, the actual fact is that Amazon simply was not allowed to undercut on pricing anymore after the iBook agreements, putting the prices back at normal levels. This is what has made it look like a collusion to raise prices to you and the DOJ, but it doesn't make it so.

I bet all a publisher needs to do is show their wholesale price they were selling eBooks at before, then compare it to the net profit they receive from the agency model, and if they're even loosely close to each other, the suit will be thrown out.

Mmm, no. You might want to read up on what the law actually says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing#Legal_status_in_the_United_States_and_Canada

"Colluding on price amongst competitors, also known as horizontal price fixing, is viewed as a per se violation of the Sherman Act regardless of the market impact or alleged efficiency of the action."​

So basically, it doesn't matter whether Apple and the publishers were trying to head off a monopoly or whatever. Publishers are competitors and not allowed to collude and act as a cartel to fix prices.

That is exactly what they did. I do not think that the case will go well for them at all.
 

Daveoc64

macrumors 601
Jan 16, 2008
4,074
92
Bristol, UK
Daveoc64, beg my pardon while I raise a few flags about your posts in this thread, because I have not yet seen that you fully understand the economical differences of the wholesale and agency models, or economies in general to be quite frank.

You've ignored all the comments (including questions directed specifically at you) that have been related to the wider economical ramifications of the wholesale model compared to the agency model.

I'm sorry if I've missed anything. Point a post out to me and I'll try to answer it.

All you've been doing is posting short-sighted arguments that "the wholesale model is better because it results in lower prices", without showing that you actually understand why they're lower in the first place.

It's very obvious why they're lower - retailers like Amazon reduce them to bring more people onto their site in the hope that they'll buy other (more expensive things) - e.g. a Kindle device, other books. A simple loss leader.

Some independent authors/publishers are concerned that if the big 6 have to drop Agency, the non-agency model will lose out.

Out of curiosity, can I ask what you do as a job? I'm highly dubious you've ever worked in any type of business.

I'm a university student, but I do not think that is relevant. I have followed the agency model for years. I'm quite active on a forum that discusses ebooks and follow several blogs that do nothing but track ebook sales and examine how the agency model works.
 
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BaldiMac

macrumors G3
Jan 24, 2008
8,761
10,890
If the DoJ does in fact have the emails and records of meetings mentioned in this article h ttp://www.theverge.com/2012/4/11/2941053/inside-the-dojs-ebook-price-fixing-case-against-apple-an-analysis ), then they will easily win the case.

And yet...
https://www.macrumors.com/2012/04/1...unlikely-to-win-antitrust-suit-against-apple/


Mmm, no. You might want to read up on what the law actually says: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_fixing#Legal_status_in_the_United_States_and_Canada

"Colluding on price amongst competitors, also known as horizontal price fixing, is viewed as a per se violation of the Sherman Act regardless of the market impact or alleged efficiency of the action."​

So basically, it doesn't matter whether Apple and the publishers were trying to head off a monopoly or whatever. Publishers are competitors and not allowed to collude and act as a cartel to fix prices.

That is exactly what they did. I do not think that the case will go well for them at all.

I would not group Apple with the publishers in this statement, as Apple has not been accused of colluding with its competitors.
 

mfulton

macrumors newbie
Mar 19, 2010
20
0
The amount of ebooks being sold is minuscule when compared to the entire book market, let alone the US economy.

With better competition, even more books could be bought by consumers.

The amount of eBook sales is anything but miniscule. On average, eBook sales are about 30% of the market right now, and that percentage is growing fast.

Source: http://venturebeat.com/2012/03/29/ebook-sales-growth/

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You sound so sure of these claims. I'm pretty sure that only your first sentence is completely correct.

Read it again. I never made any claims. I simply stated what the allegations were. I didn't even offer up an opinion as to whether or not Apple was guilty.
 

charlituna

macrumors G3
Jun 11, 2008
9,636
816
Los Angeles, CA
Clearly, the DOJ never heard the phrase "you can't litigate your way to profitability." Apple is on top of the capitalistic heap now without any help from the government. The administration doesn't give a crap about e-books. They want a fine or financial settlement.

I think you might be slightly correct. I don't know that it's really about the money. Well the suit itself might be but the inclusion of Apple perhaps not. The various blogs etc are all screaming for Apple's head and if the DOJ didn't include Apple in the suits, the same sites would be slamming them over it.

So even if they can't win the suit, they can say they tried.

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Apple had no right to require publishers to change their relationship with Amazon, just so Apple (not the publisher) could increase their own profits.

Lets see this proof that you have that they did.

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Sadly, this isn't possible for e-books. The agency model insures they're the same price everywhere.

The same price issue has nothing to do with using agency pricing over wholesale. A publisher could still demand a level of control over what the store prices the items no matter which model. It's all about how much balls and pull the publisher has. If they have both that are big enough the store will have no choice but to agree or lose the titles. So regardless of the pricing model, the publisher can or cannot have the same price (or near to)in all stores.

It was the favored nation clause that Apple put on their contracts that caused the same pricing.

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I don't know much about the legal merits of the case, but given that:

-The US has launched a case (both federally and in several states)

-The EU is considering a case

considering is not a case. And most of those 'several states' are merely considering, they haven't filed. And likely won't unless the DOJ wins. Because if the DOJ loses, they are likely to lose.

As for the publishers settling of course they did. They may have actually done something wrong. Which is why the DOJ has emails etc about how they were going to present a united front to the retailers to get the terms (agency model) they wanted
 

milo

macrumors 604
Sep 23, 2003
6,891
522
Apple had no right to require publishers to change their relationship with Amazon

Apple wasn't forcing anyone to do anything. Apple said they had to do it if they wanted to do business with apple. Publishers CHOSE to go along with Apple's terms because they wanted to sell on the Apple ebook store (and because they didn't want Amazon to have a monopoly). If they didn't like the terms they were free to not sell on the iTunes store.

It seems like the agency model isn't necessarily illegal, or even the MFN clause, just possibly the publishers communicating and agreeing to all take part in that agreement.

And regardless of the result of this case, it seems like the agency model would probably still be an option, and publishers could set whatever prices they want...just as long as they're not conspiring together to all raise prices.

Apple sell popular songs at $1.29
Amazon sell popular songs at $0.99

It's misleading to put it like that. Apple does sell some songs at .99 and .69, and amazon does sell some songs at $1.29.


Hmm....If Walmart were to say to Hasbro we will sell your game, but you can't sell it cheaper anywhere else, including directly to the consumer, would we not scream about antitrust laws being violated?

I'm sure people would scream, but I don't know that they'd have any legal basis for it.

Walmart could probably make that request if they wanted. And Hasbro would have the choice to agree or to refuse and not have Walmart carry their game. It's not really an issue until Walmart has a monopoly which isn't the case, is it?
 

charlituna

macrumors G3
Jun 11, 2008
9,636
816
Los Angeles, CA
With the wholesale model, publishers STILL get to set how much they receive for each book.

How much the publishers get isn't really the issue. it's the value implied in the pricing to the consumers. If a price is too low then the consumers have a lower value. And then, the publishers fear, they will be forced into keeping those prices. Online and off. And no one really likes to be forced in such a way.
 

Tarzanman

macrumors 65816
Jul 16, 2010
1,304
15

Unfortunately, the emails (if they are legitimate) show that Apple is complicit in the price fixing, and that they not only profited from the scheme, but were rewarded for their complicity with a 'most favored' status by the publishers acting as a cartel.

Yes, it is a harder to case to prove, but those emails are like smoking guns. Once the publishers are found guilty, the judge won't let a complicit party like Apple (who enabled the price fixing) to escape punishment.
 
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EricNau

Moderator emeritus
Apr 27, 2005
10,728
281
San Francisco, CA
Apple wasn't forcing anyone to do anything. Apple said they had to do it if they wanted to do business with apple. Publishers CHOSE to go along with Apple's terms because they wanted to sell on the Apple ebook store (and because they didn't want Amazon to have a monopoly). If they didn't like the terms they were free to not sell on the iTunes store.

It seems like the agency model isn't necessarily illegal, or even the MFN clause, just possibly the publishers communicating and agreeing to all take part in that agreement.

And regardless of the result of this case, it seems like the agency model would probably still be an option, and publishers could set whatever prices they want...just as long as they're not conspiring together to all raise prices.
Exactly. Apple used their enormous market influence to change the relationship between publishers and other retailers (like Amazon). Realistically, a publisher can't afford to keep their books out of the iBookstore... IIRC Random House tried, but it wasn't sustainable.

I find it laughable that the publishers and Apple are calling Amazon anti-competitive when the only company who abused their influence was Apple.
 

Rocketman

macrumors 603
I am wondering if we have to have a new conversation on a new principal of "default pricing". Examples include music at $0.99 and $1.29, video media at $2.99 and $9.99, books at $12.95, 14.95, $16.95 or whatever. These seem to be "price points" to me, not "mandatory prices."

I have "price points" in my own product that relate to the number and cost of components. I might have a dozen products within a dollar of $29.95 with widely different parts counts and costs that in some way only a weird person could comprehend the "apparent value" of the product, comprised of 6 variables most reminiscent of magic or witchcraft.

But it works.

If you care enough to try my products go to my linked page, otherwise shut up and listen. :)

Rocketman
 

gnasher729

Suspended
Nov 25, 2005
17,980
5,565
No DOJ HAS evidence, I'm pretty sure it's not made it up. Like I said, we will see over the coming months.

One of the publishers said: "I made my decision at 4 am in the morning while on my exercise bike, and there was nobody else there". So the guy would _know_ that there was no collusion as far as he was involved, and he would know that the DoJ _can't_ have evidence against him, because he didn't do what he is accused of.
 

Rocketman

macrumors 603
Executive Branch "regulators" don't operate on facts and evidence because the courts have ruled they don't have to. They are "presumed correct". No I am not kidding. Therefore this is a shakedown, and only real blast back by actual citizens annoying congress can address this issue. When was the last time that ever happened?
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
It s not a slam dunk, but it's likely to never get to a judge.

Apple doesn't need the agency model any longer. The iBook store has plenty of momentum now.

They will likely admit no wrong doing, settle out of court, drop the agency model, then lower prices to force Amazon to lose money to compete. They can spend $1,000,000,000 punishing Amazon this way.

Wanna play hardball Amazon? Let's play.

Problem with iBooks and why I will never buy something from iBooks it iBooks ONLY work on iOS devices. It is tied to that single and fairly costly platform. The Apple lock in is the entire reason many people including me will not touch it. Amazon Kindle on the other had is not tied to a single hardware platform. It works on Kindles, Android, iOS, blackberry, WP7, OSX, Windows ect. I am not stuck on a single platform.

But then why are they targeting Apple, which has worked with the publishers to lower textbook costs by nearly 90%?

Yeah no. That was all hear say. SOME books were lowered but Apple had ZERO and I repeat ZERO real effect on text books. They are still over priced and criminal levels with complete BS updates. By BS updates all they do is change the order of the question in the homework section and maybe changed a few question but they do radically change the order of the question. Now they are putting "online only" parts to books as well and of course charging for that if you buy used. Only only would be things that should be in the book.
 

sha4000

macrumors regular
Feb 19, 2012
139
1
Executive Branch "regulators" don't operate on facts and evidence because the courts have ruled they don't have to. They are "presumed correct". No I am not kidding. Therefore this is a shakedown, and only real blast back by actual citizens annoying congress can address this issue. When was the last time that ever happened?

Well ppl get get convicted in federal courts all the time based on what you are pointing out and i don't see anyone in here putting up any fuss for them. I don't see why any of the defendants should be any different. I don't much care for that type of legal system but unless everyone is ready to riot in the streets I don't see it changing anytime soon. I like Apple products just as much as the next person in this forum but they are no different than any of the big companies that the same ppl in this forum like to complain about. When you get caught with your hand in the cookie jar........... If Apple and the publishers feel that they did nothing wrong then they can have their day in court and we can all come back here and talk about it. If they were in the wrong cut your losses and move on. I understand that some ppl here are close to this situation( Authors, Publishers, stock holders,Etc...) but does anyone really believe that the defendants were not fully aware of what they were doing? Maybe the high priced lawyers just gave them some bad advice.
 

faroZ06

macrumors 68040
Apr 3, 2009
3,387
1
You're still totally ignoring the fact that Apple has lower marketshare than both the Kindle and Nook.

I don't see how that means they're "finally" making them available to "a LOT of people", when other companies are doing a far better job. Amazon / Barnes and Noble have been doing that:

a) for longer
b) cheaper
c) on more devices
d) with more content

The iBooks platform has a lot of pitfalls for consumers and that's why it's not as popular as the other platforms.

Apple has done nothing new
Apple has done nothing different
Apple has done nothing better

The iTunes Music Store offered convenience that other stores just didn't have - iBooks is not the same.



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This sounds like Agency Model Propaganda to me.

With the wholesale model, publishers STILL get to set how much they receive for each book.

If the publisher sells a book for $10 under the Agency Model, they get $7.

If they publisher sold the book to Amazon for $7 wholesale, then they could get the same money for the content creators, yet consumers would benefit from a competitive market.

This is how the paper book model works, as well as virtually everything else we buy (e.g. food).

What is your source for the iPad marketshare? I found with a Google search a few sources claiming that the iPad has the highest tablet market share, 61% or so. This includes the Kindle Fire, but I don't know if it includes all Kindles.
 

mfulton

macrumors newbie
Mar 19, 2010
20
0
What is your source for the iPad marketshare? I found with a Google search a few sources claiming that the iPad has the highest tablet market share, 61% or so. This includes the Kindle Fire, but I don't know if it includes all Kindles.

iPad market share doesn't translate into iBookstore market share.

I use the iPad as my eReader, and it's almost completely within the Kindle app. I very rarely use the iBooks app.
 
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