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NERunner

macrumors newbie
Jun 17, 2011
8
1
Massachusetts
Could not agree more.

Yeah, sure, Apple, the corporation with more cash reserves than the entire African continent, is the saint and is only trying to protect us all from the evil competitors. I get it.

On the merits, do you know what Amazon did for ALL authors on this planet? They freed writers from the power of the publishing houses by making them OBSOLETE. Yes, Amazon successfully destroyed the TRADITIONAL publishing industry and replaced it with something MODERN. Amazon did some incredibly great there for the benefit of all writers AND readers.

Yes, this new order totally sucks for the old publishing houses. Just like the invention of mp3 and file sharing sucks for record labels and now even the movie industry.

Technology has evolved, their business models haven't. The process is called selection - either adept or become extinct.

Anyway. In your next lesson, you Apple's business model is better for consumers than Amazon's. At least Amazon gives me a free choice on which platform I want to read my eBooks - they don't care whether it's an iOS gadget, an Android or a Windows device, their Kindle readers or even a web browser using read.amazon.com. They also give their authors the choice whether they want to publish free of DRM or with DRM.

Apple only lets me read on iOS gadgets. They don't even support their own OS X platform. They try to get exclusive content by adding dubious licensing conditions to their iBooks Author software.

What again were the merits of Apple's offerings?

Finally, after reading a couple a dozen comments, someone here is a voice of reason. Don't get me wrong, I love Apple products, but to support Apple in this case and label them as some kind of David up against the DOJ and Amazon Goliaths is hilarious. Amazon is indeed transforming the publishing industry and the industry dinosaurs have declared Jihad against the company. When I see prices for e-books sometimes going for almost double the soft back price (see Theodore White's series, Making of the President, for one example) something is not right with the e-book pricing.
 

samcraig

macrumors P6
Jun 22, 2009
16,779
41,982
USA
LTD - I believe you are wrong. The public sector for which ebook pricing (and it's quite large) is important has been VERY vocal about their dissatisfaction of pricing. So while it might not be the full on masses - this case is very important and will affect anyone who has an ipad, kindle, sony e-reader and any other device which can read an ebook on.

People aren't just yelling "give me more Apple gear" - they are yelling "Why am I paying more for this book than before? Or more than the cover price?" and so on.

I know you'll defend Apple right down to the core no matter what - but this is yet another instance where you come off ridiculous in your commentary.
 

Rocketman

macrumors 603
Do you care to give even a basic outline these "political purposes" you allude to, or did it just sound like a smart idea in your head?

The DOJ has a stated goal of winning 90% of criminal cases and 80% of civil cases, and they beat it every year. They don't go on random boondoggles.
Cases in Federal court are somewhat fair, but the law is written vaguely, precisely so prosecutions can be selective.

If this were an administrative action I would simply presume the government would prevail since the standard of justice in that venue is "presumption of correctness" which is not one of the three legal standards I always hear lawyers say they must choose among.

BTW Yes I read the complaint. Remember, it is a claim, not a judgment. We may see Apple's answer in a month.

Legal or not as a book publisher myself I am in favor of the agency model for electronic sales. I want to retain the right to set my own price on my property just like on Ebay.

Someone said I was idealogically opposed to anti-trust laws. That's not the case. However they have been used in ways where the prosecution was idealogical and the outcome has had mixed or opposite results as intended, even though the physical split was accomplished. I think using anti-trust laws on a marketing strategy is an overreach. But layered on top of all that, this particular administration does seemingly everything for political not technical reasons. After all is said and done the choice to file is an executive branch decision.

Rocketman
 
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IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
Finally, after reading a couple a dozen comments, someone here is a voice of reason. Don't get me wrong, I love Apple products, but to support Apple in this case and label them as some kind of David up against the DOJ and Amazon Goliaths is hilarious. Amazon is indeed transforming the publishing industry and the industry dinosaurs have declared Jihad against the company. When I see prices for e-books sometimes going for almost double the soft back price (see Theodore White's series, Making of the President, for one example) something is not right with the e-book pricing.

I agree, something is not right with e-book pricing, but keep in mind this is a very immature market with only two key retail players, and the publishing industry itself is fossilized and doesn't see the way forward. The key to moving forward and getting pricing right is allowing a competitive market to decide what customers want from e-books and for the production and retailing side to get the product to them at a price they want to pay. This is where antitrust laws can become important. No player, be it Amazon or Apple or anyone else, should be able to lock down the market on their terms and defend their market share by creating competitive barriers to new entrants with new ideas. This is why we don't want to see the publishers getting together and deciding to not allow retailers to compete on price.
 

vrDrew

macrumors 65816
Jan 31, 2010
1,376
13,412
Midlife, Midwest
When I see prices for e-books sometimes going for almost double the soft back price (see Theodore White's series, Making of the President, for one example) something is not right with the e-book pricing.

An e-book and a printed book are similar but not identical economic goods. It is a mistake to assume that because the printed book is priced lower than the e-book that this represents evidence of malfeasance.

Like many people, you are focusing too much on the perceived "cost of production" in order to determine what you think a "fair price" ought to be. The cost of production is not what determines price. Demand is what ultimately determines price.

E-books have specific advantages: they can be delivered immediately, with no additional shipping cost, rather than waiting a day or so for delivery; and they take up zero space in an airline passengers hand luggage. In order to gain these advantages, e-book readers are prepared to "pay extra" for the convenience of the Kindle edition. The same way that office workers will pay extra for the convenience of buying can of soda from a vending machine (about a $1 per can near me) - rather than buying a 12-pack from their grocery store for $3.99.

Printed books, while they have their advantages (can be read by anyone, not just e-reader owners) and can also be lent out, etc; also have disadvantages to the retailer: They take up shelf space, and have a carrying cost. And printed books, especially paperbacks, compete with used books. Therefore a printed book may sometimes be discounted.

One thing I can pretty much guarantee you: No matter how the DoJ case against Apple and the other publishers turns out - two years from now the "Making of The President" series will still cost more as an e-book than a paperback at Amazon. And this will be because Amazon (and the publisher) are interested in making a profit by charging a higher price for a product that offers consumers convenience - not because Apple is evil or greedy.
 

Flitzy

Guest
Oct 20, 2010
215
0
Meanwhile, while the government is going after Apple for no reason other than political points in a political season, Amazon is doing what they do best and slowly killing off the competition and ACTUALLY becoming a monopoly.
 

ShiftyPig

macrumors 6502a
Aug 24, 2008
567
0
AU
I think using anti-trust laws on a marketing strategy is an overreach.

Governing pricing-fixing is an overreach? Cool story bro.

But layered on top of all that, this particular administration does seemingly everything for political not technical reasons. After all is said and done the choice to file is an executive branch decision.

Again, cool story bro. I can safely say that I'm glad you are the eBook publisher and I'm the person who works with the DOJ. I wish the executive branch meddled in everything - that would make my life a lot easier.
 

Rocketman

macrumors 603
Governing pricing-fixing is an overreach? Cool story bro.

Again, cool story bro. I can safely say that I'm glad you are the eBook publisher and I'm the person who works with the DOJ. I wish the executive branch meddled in everything - that would make my life a lot easier.
Does DOJ have an internal affairs department, and is it actively investigating the unfortunate Mexican gun running case?

Apple is not price fixing. Content owners are free to charge whatever they want. They have a fixed "margin". Furthermore I can put an e-book on Kindle as well, with a discreet base of customers, and a discreet sales policy, which end users can use, either or both, as they choose.

So honestly I don't see the price fixing, and yes, I did read the complaint.

I do believe we need a DOJ, but under some Presidential administrations, it is subject to more political pressure than others. I think we can both agree we are at a high water mark for that.

Thank you for your service sir.

As for your statement, " I wish the executive branch meddled in everything - that would make my life a lot easier.", that simply scares me. We as free people are supposed to be free of excessive interference by the government in particular. My experience in California for the past 30 years is it has become downright convenient for Police to gather evidence to make convictions from traffic, to DUI, to whatever, except violent crimes. The little stuff is enforced nearly perfectly however. It gums up the works and turns brave citizens into sheeple.

The percentage of the population in prison is something like 4x as high in this country as #2.

Rocketman

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/04...brother-black-boxes-in-all-new-cars-from-2015

Big brother installed. Echelon and its successors: big brother installed.
 
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ShiftyPig

macrumors 6502a
Aug 24, 2008
567
0
AU
I do believe we need a DOJ, but under some Presidential administrations, it is subject to more political pressure than others. I think we can both agree we are at a high water mark for that.

None of my coworkers feel an ounce of political pressure. The pressure we feel manifests itself in working overtime that isn't 100% compensated, including around the clock at crucial moments. Again, since you failed once I'll give you another chance, do you care to outline any of these political motivations beyond these vague assertions of us "both knowing it." You know.... we just know it. You don't know - you're on the outside man.

Moreover, how does prosecuting Apple, a company whose products are used by a majority of people (I would guess), score political points? Are you insinuating that Democrats don't like Apple? :confused:

Ascribing your opinions as my own is unacceptable and 100% what I would expect from a user who feels the need to sign all his posts.
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
None of my coworkers feel an ounce of political pressure. The pressure we feel manifests itself in working overtime that isn't 100% compensated, including around the clock at crucial moments. Again, since you failed once I'll give you another chance, do you care to outline any of these political motivations beyond these vague assertions of us "both knowing it." You know.... we just know it. You don't know - you're on the outside man.

Moreover, how does prosecuting Apple, a company whose products are used by a majority of people (I would guess), score political points? Are you insinuating that Democrats don't like Apple? :confused:

Ascribing your opinions as my own is unacceptable and 100% what I would expect from a user who feels the need to sign all his posts.

And I would have thought that U.S. v. AT&T would be considered the high watermark for the DoJ's application of the antitrust laws, seeing as how they broke up the company and all. Filed during the Ford administration, settled during the Reagan administration. All pure politics, clearly.
 

Nostromo

macrumors 65816
Dec 26, 2009
1,358
2
Deep Space
Books cannot be treated "cheap as cheap can".

Apple's model is vastly superior to the retail model which supports high numbers only.

Cell phone companies and internet providers, there's a case for an anti-trust lawsuit.

But e-Books?

Thumbs up for Apple for sticking to its guns here.
 

drorpheus

macrumors regular
Nov 20, 2010
160
1
Books cannot be treated "cheap as cheap can".

Apple's model is vastly superior to the retail model which supports high numbers only.

Cell phone companies and internet providers, there's a case for an anti-trust lawsuit.

But e-Books?

Thumbs up for Apple for sticking to its guns here.

Apple's model is only beneficial to apple because Apple currently is not a bookstore. Amazon buys millions of books with there own money and sells them for whatever they want as ALL retail stores currently operate. Apple's just spent too much time being a cell phone company/wallstreet toy co. and missed the ebook train, now they're buttsore and tryed to lockout Amazon by price fixing. They'll lose just like the NFL did last year with Reebok in thier AntiTrust suit, and they'll be rejected immunity just like the NFL was.
 

Nostromo

macrumors 65816
Dec 26, 2009
1,358
2
Deep Space
Apple's model is only beneficial to apple because Apple currently is not a bookstore. Amazon buys millions of books with there own money and sells them for whatever they want as ALL retail stores currently operate. Apple's just spent too much time being a cell phone company/wallstreet toy co. and missed the ebook train, now they're buttsore and tryed to lockout Amazon by price fixing. They'll lose just like the NFL did last year with Reebok in thier AntiTrust suit, and they'll be rejected immunity just like the NFL was.

Amazon can sell e-Books at any price they want, even at a dumping price.

As the author only gets a small percentage in the retail model, writing quality e-Books would not be financially viable, and we'd get a flood of cheap e-Books with trash content.

Apple's agency model is good not only for Apple, but also for authors, as Apple's cut is only 30%.

One thing that has to be dealt with: those "most popular" lists, which mostly contains "lowest common denominator" products.

There must be a sophisticated search engine coming with Apple's e-Book store that gives books with smaller imprint a chance to come up in searches.

Or the "Angry Birds" of e-Books will pull in all the business, and will cover up the better books.
 

notyourlawyer

macrumors newbie
Apr 30, 2008
6
4
I do believe we need a DOJ, but under some Presidential administrations, it is subject to more political pressure than others. I think we can both agree we are at a high water mark for that.


Huh? What examples of political pressure have you so upset? While you are compiling your list, I urge you to Google "Church Committee." Also fun, "Alien and Sedition Acts."

We might be at a high water mark for lack of historical perspective, right here on this thread. But I doubt it.
 

MachAF

macrumors newbie
Jun 22, 2010
26
0
Of course Apple's lawyer wants a trial. More billable hours.

They'll get plenty of billable hours with all the Canadian publishers filing suit.

What happened to the stock price this week? ;)
 

Rodimus Prime

macrumors G4
Oct 9, 2006
10,136
4
Is it just me or is Apple legal getting dumber and dumber. A trail would be bad for Apple no matter what the outcome.
 

Rocketman

macrumors 603
Rocketman said:
Does DOJ have an internal affairs department, and is it actively investigating the unfortunate Mexican gun running case?

I do believe we need a DOJ, but under some Presidential administrations, it is subject to more political pressure than others. I think we can both agree we are at a high water mark for that.

Shiftypig said:
...do you care to outline any of these political motivations...?

notyourlawyer said:
What examples of political pressure...?

Here is an example, the Kim Dotcom case:

http://yro.slashdot.org/story/12/04...y-kim-dotcom-may-never-be-tried-or-extradited

Shouldn't he be "made whole" since the investigation is irrepairably ended?

Again I repeat, does the DOJ have an internal affairs department?

Here we see the NSA running roughshod over the constitution and bill of rights:

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2008/07/analysis-pendin/

http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/20...utm_medium=RelatedLinks&utm_campaign=Previous

As I posted in another forum regarding this practice:

I think its existence and scope are now pretty well known. My view is that since one cannot unring the bell on this technology and practice, what is needed is a law or a ruling, that says any such information collected cannot be used for a criminal claim against a sovereign citizen of the country. Further that any damages caused by its collection or use subjects the government to pay money damages. The many lawsuits closed because it may disclose state secrets bars folks from recoveries they are otherwise entitled to. Under common law practice, when someone is damaged by act of the state, the state should compensate them for that. This is commonly seen in the takings clause and also in the area of eminent domain and easements. Money changes hands to compensate for the loss.That currently does not happen in these cases and should.

This sort of law (or practice or precedent) would also protect folks such as those who worked at "Area 51, Nellis AFB" which was declared a state secret and that status was reinforced by Executive order of President Clinton when employees made claims for medical damages they received working there. It was determined that since the place "didn't exist" any such claims were invalid on their face.

Perhaps the solution to this legal conundrum is a secret fund with a secret panel of judges to hear such claims and quietly pay damages or give free access to medical care.

A "special master" can solve a wide range of legal problems.

Thanks.

Rocketman

Here's one from today:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/04/21/justice/alaska-nugent-bear-hunting/index.html?hpt=hp_t3

A more complete account of the facts:

http://www.bostonherald.com/track/c...&format=&page=1&listingType=celeb#articleFull

I think we can agree this prosecution does not comport with the intent of the law and was overcharged, and done so federally. It was also leveraged to get more "concessions" than pretty much any other person might be required to perform. Concessions that clearly fall into the category of the political.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/story/2012-04-19/vanden-brook-locker-propaganda/54419654/1

I found an old reference to Department of Justice, Internal Affairs.

http://www.justice.gov/oig/special/0508/index.htm

According to the Inspector General Act, the OIG is an independent entity within the DOJ that reports to both the Attorney General and Congress. The OIG’s mission is to investigate allegations of waste, fraud, and abuse in DOJ programs and personnel and to promote economy and efficiency in DOJ operations.

The OIG has jurisdiction to review programs and personnel in all DOJ components, including the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), the Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), the Federal Bureau of Prisons (BOP), the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), the U.S. Attorneys’ Offices, and other DOJ components.

It appears when it's time to redress your grievances under the terms of the constitution, this is the place to file:

http://www.justice.gov/oig/
 
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Mal

macrumors 603
Jan 6, 2002
6,252
18
Orlando
Is it just me or is Apple legal getting dumber and dumber. A trail would be bad for Apple no matter what the outcome.

Apple knows what's at stake, and they're willing to risk something to make sure that the market remains the way they want it. Honestly, I completely agree with Apple's position on this, and I fully expect them to win.

jW
 

IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
Huh? What examples of political pressure have you so upset? While you are compiling your list, I urge you to Google "Church Committee." Also fun, "Alien and Sedition Acts."

We might be at a high water mark for lack of historical perspective, right here on this thread. But I doubt it.

If you don't agree with a law, then all of the enforcement of it can be classified as political, by definition. As far as historical perspective is concerned, some subscribe to the Henry Ford theory: "history is bunk!"
 

thewitt

macrumors 68020
Sep 13, 2011
2,102
1,523
When the government is doing a prosecution for entirely political purposes, the only outlet available is a jury trial.

Completely on point.

Apple is guilty of nothing illegal here, the DOJ know it, and now that Apple has requested a jury trial, they will drop the case.
 

Rocketman

macrumors 603
If you don't agree with a law, then all of the enforcement of it can be classified as political, by definition.
I know you were being flip, but that is simply not true. The law is the law. That's how we roll. But even with the many unwise laws we do have, there is a second layer of the police or prosecutors or regulators using technicalities or perceptions to claim a law has been violated to seek a prosecution, a fine, injunctive relief, or far more insideous, a plea bargain or concession contrary to your true belief because the stakes of losing are not limited to being found liable for the issue you object to, but a far larger and more painful one.

One recent example in the news is the guy who claimed self defense, and the "popular media" was alleging for several days he was not even injured and his story should thus not be believed. Then thank goodness, a contemporaneous photo taken moments after the incident became public, which verified the original story. He is on trial for 2nd degree murder and that prosecution is pretty widely believed to not only be overcharged, but unsubstantiated in full.

Another example is this Ted Nugent bear hunting issue. He did a bear hunting show where he and his crew filmed a bow and arrow hunt of a black bear. There is a one bear kill per hunter limit. He shot at one and missed. The arrow stuck in the ground. According to witness accounts the arrow touched the bear and "probably" broke the skin but there was no blood trail and a search for the bear resulted in not finding itr. This is a crew of people dedicated to "getting the shot".

The way it was represented by the authorities is the 1st Bear was possibly mortally wounded or otherwise considered hit. The 2nd bear was hit and killed and taken for processing as the law requires. The law is intended to make sure you don't leave dead or mortally wounded animals when you miss and simply go after another one. Fine. But #1 was for all practical purposes just fine. #2 was taken back for processing as the law allows.

So one would think this would be a state issue in any case because it happened in AK. Nope. The Feds charged it as a Felony, defined as any charge which could involve a year or more, which the charge they made was.

They charged him with transporting a bear when more than one (two) would not be "utilized". Now I may not be a genius or anything, but #1 was for all practical purposes just fine. #2 was "utilized". The transport was legal. But the threat of being charged with a felony could have meant this gun zealot and hunting lover would lose that right forever.

He was put into a position by overcharging to enter a plea bargain (state term), or in the parlance of federal law, entered a plea of guilty to a lesser charge. But even that was not the end of it. Because he is a celebrity he was unfairly exposed to the further humiliation of doing PSA's and paying for them on his hunting program, who knows at what cost, but I am guessing that exceeds the $10,000 statutory maximum fine for this federal charge.

These strong-arm and over-charge tactics are now dominant in our lives and in all police and prosecutor cultures. Shi*tyPig noted with glee that Federal prosecutors have an over 80% conviction rate which I have no problem believing since everyone they come into contact with are tactically and financially challenged.

Local prosecutors around here typically have conviction rates over 95%. I have read the Federalist Papers and it was the intent of the framers that 10 guilty people go free before 1 innocent person be convicted. That's why the standards of justice, like for search, evidence, and role of the officials were so stiff. It has been turned on its head as lawyers like to say. We have our prisons at 300% capacity. People routinely forsake trials and true justice because the stakes are allowed by judges and the system to be impossibly extreme if you seek a trial and only very inconvenient if you plea. The only way a plea negotiation could ever be fair is if there was a motion in limine to rule the maximum penalty based on the facts ALREADY IN EVIDENCE.

All criminal cases should be required to have a trial and should require the state pay for all defense costs by the best lawyers available.

Rocketman

"He has erected a Multitude of new Offices, and sent hither Swarms of Officers to harass our People, and eat out of their Substance." - Thomas Jefferson, July 4, 1776
 
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MattInOz

macrumors 68030
Jan 19, 2006
2,760
0
Sydney
When I see prices for e-books sometimes going for almost double the soft back price (see Theodore White's series, Making of the President, for one example) something is not right with the e-book pricing.

Wait when you say a Physical book cheaper, do you mean as a one off or over the life of sales?
It's the average price of sales you really need to look at.

P.S. Anyone else think it's odd that this in in the "Mac Blog".
 
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IJ Reilly

macrumors P6
Jul 16, 2002
17,909
1,496
Palookaville
I know you were being flip, but that is simply not true. The law is the law. That's how we roll. But even with the many unwise laws we do have, there is a second layer of the police or prosecutors or regulators using technicalities or perceptions to claim a law has been violated to seek a prosecution, a fine, injunctive relief, or far more insideous, a plea bargain or concession contrary to your true belief because the stakes of losing are not limited to being found liable for the issue you object to, but a far larger and more painful one.

I wasn't being flip. A little arch maybe, but not flippant. I'm disinterested in all of your state and local examples. Among the many thousands of prosecution decisions made at the state and local level every week, an example of anything can be found. This is simply an effort at attempting a proof by anecdote. For instance isn't evidence.

On the subject, in fact and indeed the DoJ has responded to political pressures. But in reality, those pressures have put the Antitrust Division into non-enforcement mode for such a long time that any and all enforcement efforts now are going to look "political." In fact what we are seeing now is closer to what has been the historical behavior the department under both Democratic and Republican administrations.
 

musiciscool

macrumors regular
Jun 8, 2008
126
0
Los Angeles, California
This administration is in bed with Google, the uber big brother! They won't bother google with any of it's privacy breaches, but wants to nail Apple on ebooks that we don't have to buy? Oh yeah, while simultaneously arguing before the supreme court that we should all be compelled to buy insurance?! Talk about conspiracy to price fix. Eric Holder, the people's advocate......
 
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