Mountan Lion rant, what's in it for me?

If you don't need it don't buy it.

D-a-a-n said:

I only have one apple device, a MBP:

As I see it, the "new" "top" "features" are:

- iCloud -> yeah..don't have an iPhone
- Messages -> i'm sorry everybody is on facebook chat nowadays..
- Reminders + Notes + Notification Center -> have already applications for that
- airPlay -> sorry don't own a appleTV
- twitter + share sheets -> <sarcasm> waw.. must've taken them a full year to implement that one.. </sarcasm
- gamecenter -> *cough* steam

So, what are the big features for people who don't own iDevices? Any under the hood speed improvements? When will they split iTunes into 3 apps?

Sorry for ranting!

Click to expand...

To me, Mountain Lion is for Lion what Windows 7 was for Vista. It's just... Better. In a word, ItFeelsSnappier

I'm hoping for lots of little improvements that might make ML worthwhile (depending on the cost) to me. The advertised features don't really blow me away either.... Reminders, Notes and Messages it seems could have been shipped independently from an OS update and don't really bring much additional functionality with them anyway, Notification Center already exists in the form of Growl, Share Sheets, Twitter and Game Center seem a bit silly from my point of view. That leaves iCloud integration, AirPlay Mirroring and Gatekeeper....nice to have, but still a bit underwhelming for a whole new OS.

D-a-a-n said:

I only have one apple device, a MBP:

As I see it, the "new" "top" "features" are:

- iCloud -> yeah..don't have an iPhone
- Messages -> i'm sorry everybody is on facebook chat nowadays..
- Reminders + Notes + Notification Center -> have already applications for that
- airPlay -> sorry don't own a appleTV
- twitter + share sheets -> <sarcasm> waw.. must've taken them a full year to implement that one.. </sarcasm
- gamecenter -> *cough* steam

So, what are the big features for people who don't own iDevices? Any under the hood speed improvements? When will they split iTunes into 3 apps?

Sorry for ranting!

Click to expand...

Agree. Of your list I only use iCloud for iCal, the rest of the "features" were written for somebody else. However if ML has performance enhancements over Lion it will be worth the few bucks Apple probably wants for it. I'm really looking forward to moving out of Lion.

tkermit said:

I'm hoping for lots of little improvements that might make ML worthwhile (depending on the cost) to me. The advertised features don't really blow me away either.... Reminders, Notes and Messages it seems could have been shipped independently from an OS update and don't really bring much additional functionality with them anyway, Notification Center already exists in the form of Growl, Share Sheets, Twitter and Game Center seem a bit silly from my point of view. That leaves iCloud integration, AirPlay Mirroring and Gatekeeper....nice to have, but still a bit underwhelming for a whole new OS.

Click to expand...

What would blow you away?

Jobs said "people don't know what they want until you show it to them"

Everyone wants to be blown away but for the life me they can never state what features are missing that would blow them away.

I think it's because these people are expecting a fantasy. It's easy to sit back and dream about features that are Earth Shattering when you don't have to take them into the context of reality.

I think software development mirrors the evolution of life. It's primarily step-by-step iteration and every now and then it take a larger jump forward.

To me Mountain Lion represents the second act of the OS before we precede to that larger jump (which I view as cloud centric personal networks where we all have a surprising amount of mobile and desktop/notebook devices)

hafr said:

To me, Mountain Lion is for Lion what Windows 7 was for Vista. It's just... Better. In a word, ItFeelsSnappier

Click to expand...

Yeah, except that Microsoft fixed Vista and Lion is still crap!

wpotere said:

Yeah, except that Microsoft fixed Vista and Lion is still crap!

Click to expand...

Have you tried Windows 8. Mountain Lion is a dream compared to that s&@t sandwich.

Jagardn said:

Have you tried Windows 8. Mountain Lion is a dream compared to that s&@t sandwich.

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Actually I have and what you are playing with is not a complete product. It is just designed to give us a preview of what they are working on. There are quite a few things that are being discussed for changes. So before you compare the two, you might want to actually give them a chance to even get it to Beta....

D-a-a-n said:

So, what are the big features for people who don't own iDevices? Any under the hood speed improvements? When will they split iTunes into 3 apps?

Sorry for ranting!

Click to expand...

- application code signing for increased security
- more complete/widespread application sandboxing
- updates to OpenGL and other libraries for improved performance / new hardware support

For me, the headline feature is application code signing/sandboxing, though this is somewhat implemented in Lion, I would wager that the release of mountain lion is when it is pushed hard.


If you're just after "teh shiny!" then I doubt it will be a big upgrade for you.

If you care about security, you may think otherwise.

Contrary to change-fearing, clue-scarce whiners, the ability to enforce code signing on your mac (i.e., user choice) will be a big win. Even trojans that trick the user into allowing them to run will generate a warning or be terminated (depending on system preference) by the OS before they do any damage, unless they also figure out a way to bypass the code-signing AND break out of the sandbox.


Humans (even clever ones) are fallible. Relying on "only downloading from sites you trust", whilst good practice isn't a silver bullet. Software repositories get hacked (even kernel.org, the linux kernel source repository).

Malware writers are getting more literate and making trojans look more legit. A lack of correct digital certificate on an app may just be the difference between even a fairly competent user selecting to run an app or not - all the big software companies will have digital certs, if an app pretending to be say, an update for Office or whatever is NOT signed, then you know its dodgy, even if you downloaded it from somewhere usually reputable.

And at the end of the day, it doesn't matter if individual users think they are clever enough to not need it (chances are, if you think this way you actually have only half a clue and haven't thought about this issue quite so much). Also, there are millions out there who aren't and reducing the likelihood of those machines from becoming part of a botnet that sends the rest of us spam is a good thing.


edit:
My job involves network security...

wpotere said:

Actually I have and what you are playing with is not a complete product. It is just designed to give us a preview of what they are working on. There are quite a few things that are being discussed for changes. So before you compare the two, you might want to actually give them a chance to even get it to Beta....

Click to expand...

It's already in beta, Windows 8 Consumer Preview.

I like both, hopefully will use them more in the future, there's small features that have been added to both I like, and they seem more snappier, a lot of the back end was optimised on both operating systems.

nuckinfutz said:

What would blow you away?

Jobs said "people don't know what they want until you show it to them"

Everyone wants to be blown away but for the life me they can never state what features are missing that would blow them away.

I think it's because these people are expecting a fantasy. It's easy to sit back and dream about features that are Earth Shattering when you don't have to take them into the context of reality.

I think software development mirrors the evolution of life. It's primarily step-by-step iteration and every now and then it take a larger jump forward.

To me Mountain Lion represents the second act of the OS before we precede to that larger jump (which I view as cloud centric personal networks where we all have a surprising amount of mobile and desktop/notebook devices)

Click to expand...

This whole statement, especially the bolded part.

Mac OS is very refined, theres really not much to add at this point.

Lunfai said:

It's already in beta, Windows 8 Consumer Preview.

I like both, hopefully will use them more in the future, there's small features that have been added to both I like, and they seem more snappier, a lot of the back end was optimised on both operating systems.

Click to expand...

That is not considered Beta, it is only a consumer preview. I have a full MSDN account and when it goes Beta, it will say Beta. This is a pre-beta release just to get feedback as it is a huge deviation from the norm. They have already incorporated a lot of the items that many of us have suggested.

chrono1081 said:

This whole statement, especially the bolded part.

Mac OS is very refined, theres really not much to add at this point.

Click to expand...

Yepp. The new os'es to me are aimed at a very niche or certain market (ML = Apple owners who would presumably have other apple products, W8 = extending the windows family to Tablet consumers, ARM). It's both different market strategies but it will be interesting to see them develop.

I understand very well why Apple chose to extend these functionalities to the desktop. Not everyone likes them, but they also get the choice of upgrading and even if they did buy it just for the optimisations, they don't have to use all these new iDevice features.

But for the life of me, I want iTunes redone. I just think its a cluster of bulk to me. I wouldn't mind if they just made it a standard music player and then have an iTunes Connect type app where it does the iPhone syncing and management of applications. Both separate apps but still retains one software package.

This would end the whining of those who use iTunes purely for music to stop complaining about the bulk of iDevice syncing and the management of iDevice would be a lot more user friendly because it's their own application now.

As for the general UI of ML, I like it. I like the Grey noise window chromed over Snow Leopard. Everything is very clean, and it's not too insertive to the eyes, but icons are clean and clear.

chrono1081 said:

This whole statement, especially the bolded part.

Mac OS is very refined, theres really not much to add at this point.

Click to expand...

Kinda sorta along the lines of what I was getting at.

"teh shiny" is basically done.


however, under the covers, the mechanics of it all are due to be cleaned up and secured properly.

The practice of allowing any code to run under the assumption that where you downloaded it from is trustworthy has proven (during the past 15 years) to be broken.

Without some sort of third party validation, there's no way of knowing that the code you are downloading is safe (or rather, compiled and published by who it claims to be developed by), short of downloading it via source, and then auditing the source line by line for suspicious behavior before compiling it yourself (with a trusted compiler).

And very few users have the time or ability to do that.

Even if some dodgy code ends up on your mac from a programmer who signs it with a valid cert - as soon as apple is notified and confirm the behavior, they can turn the certificate off and it will no longer run unless the user turns code signing checks off.

wpotere said:

That is not considered Beta, it is only a consumer preview. I have a full MSDN account and when it goes Beta, it will say Beta. This is a pre-beta release just to get feedback as it is a huge deviation from the norm. They have already incorporated a lot of the items that many of us have suggested.

Click to expand...

Pretty sure it's beta my friend. Developer Preview was the pre beta that was released when it was first announced for testing and this was aimed for developers. The next release was Consumer Preview, which was stated as a beta renamed, and is the most current release build 8250.

The next public build before RTM will be called Release Preview which is basically renamed Release Candidate, and will be released soon.

At this stage how can it not be in beta, they are going to hit RTM in summer/fall time.

As long as the programs I use most are compatible within 6 months I'll be happy

I'm looking at you:

Maya
ZBrush
Houdini
Unity 3D
Corel Painter
Photoshop CS6
After Effects

and, wishful thinking since its not on OSX yet, Mari.

nuckinfutz said:

What would blow you away?

Click to expand...

I was impressed by Lion's feature set, ML seems relatively boring to me. I mean, seriously, Notes and Reminders is one of the headline features?! Two features that already exist and have merely been moved to their own applications now?

On the other hand, I've come to appreciate many of Lion's features that Apple didn't choose to advertise much, like the quicklook previews added to Spotlight and Stacks – so I'm looking forward to similar improvements that were hopefully made in ML.

Anyway, off the top of my head, I'd really love to see:

- A Metadata-centric Finder
- the ability to create, save and close files without having to give them a file name or assign a specific location in the file system
- functionality to have more metadata automatically appended to files, like the location it was created at or last edited
- A new modern and reliable file system (with support for snapshots/redundancy/data integrity), something like ZFS (ideally written with SSDs in mind)
=> which would allow you to go back in time to a previous snapshot even with no TM disk attached.
- Having Versions as well as Time Machine plug into features of the file system
- Faster boot times (Windows 8 has a feature where only the user session is closed while the kernel session is hibernated, resulting in 30-70% faster boot times)
- A book reader à la iBooks
- formerly available editing features return to Quicktime Player (i'd be willing to pay for that, just as we had to in the past)
- the ability to zoom the UI of apps in the same way that you can zoom into webpages using the trackpad
- the possibility for apps to start in what amounts to a VM, completely separated from the rest of the system (Sandboxing++)

tkermit said:

=> which would allow you to go back in time to a previous snapshot even with no TM disk attached.

Click to expand...

If you use a portable, time machine on lion already does this via local time machine backups.

If you're on a desktop mac, you may be able to turn it on using the tmutil shell command.


Essentially time machine takes snapshots in the background and rolls them up to your time machine storage when it becomes available.

If you run out of disk in the meantime, it will re-claim old local time machine snapshots for usage by the OS if required.

As far as zoom goes, you can zoom your whole desktop using the control key (from memory, don't have my mac here to check).


edit:
I agree, I'd love to see ZFS on OS X though.

D-a-a-n said:

I only have one apple device, a MBP:

As I see it, the "new" "top" "features" are:

- iCloud -> yeah..don't have an iPhone
- Messages -> i'm sorry everybody is on facebook chat nowadays..
- Reminders + Notes + Notification Center -> have already applications for that
- airPlay -> sorry don't own a appleTV
- twitter + share sheets -> <sarcasm> waw.. must've taken them a full year to implement that one.. </sarcasm
- gamecenter -> *cough* steam

So, what are the big features for people who don't own iDevices? Any under the hood speed improvements? When will they split iTunes into 3 apps?

Sorry for ranting!

Click to expand...

The assumption is that iCloud only matters when you have an iPhone and to a large extend the maximum value comes from having two Apple products. However do not diminish the value of iCloud for even a simple laptop. It basically takes your contacts and calendar data and makes them accessible on any web connected device with a browser. Giving you the ability to not only read and make changes but also to see the location of your mac should it ever be lost or pilfered.

Messages - Facebook chat is ok but Messages sends pictures, video, contacts and other data much easier than the Facebook app and believe it or not some people don't like Facebook.

Reminders, Notes & Notification Center - Sure there are 3rd party apps but when ML ships it will quickly surpass all third party tools because it's built into every new Mac shipping and upgraded Mac. The presence of third party options doesn't invalidate the goodness of these tools in ML.

Airplay - You don't have to own an Apple TV to use Airplay. It works great with wireless speakers.

Share Sheets - Great if you use social media or web services. What seems simple to some is in practice more difficult. Share Sheets needs to encompass different authentication services to be transparent to the end user.

Game Center - isn't a Steam competitor and it doesn't cost anything.


What you're doing is confusing system resources in the OS with available third party tools without realizing that these third party tools sit on top of the the resources Apple provides. The GUI stuff you so quickly replace with other apps often cannot do what they do without Apple making API they write against.

tkermit said:

On the other hand, I've come to appreciate many of Lion's features that Apple didn't choose to advertise much, like the quicklook previews added to Spotlight and Stacks – so I'm looking forward to similar improvements that were hopefully made in ML.

Click to expand...

...hadn't realized you could use quicklook on stacks. Very nice, thanks.

Lunfai said:

Pretty sure it's beta my friend. Developer Preview was the pre beta that was released when it was first announced for testing and this was aimed for developers. The next release was Consumer Preview, which was stated as a beta renamed, and is the most current release build 8250.

The next public build before RTM will be called Release Preview which is basically renamed Release Candidate, and will be released soon.

At this stage how can it not be in beta, they are going to hit RTM in summer/fall time.

Click to expand...

Because I can log in and see that it is not Beta.
Windows 8 Server - Beta
Visual Studio 11 - Beta
Windows 8 - Consumer Preview

There is a difference.

This is neither here nor there, we were talking about Mountain Lion and how they have failed to fix Lion.

Does anyone know if the preview builds use a newer OpenGL implementation? That would be a feature I'd love to see.

throAU said:

I agree, I'd love to see ZFS on OS X though.

Click to expand...

I thought ZFS was no longer and option after the whole Sun being bought out by Oracle thing...(I'd love it if it did become available).

@tkermit

Metadata centric finder - I LIKE this one! I too been wanting to see more use of metadata in the finder or at least a systemwide system of tagging. Sadly Apple either feels like it would be too complex for standard users or they wish to minimize the reliance on the file system to the point where little focus is going to be given in that area.

I actually think we're headed for a new fs seeing as how Lion introduced Core Storage with the vestiges of a volume manager. Sounds ideal as the nearterm future of storage is going to be tiered ...SSD for Boot/applications and HDD for large media (music, video, photos)

I would like to see Resolution Independence finally fleshed out and a move to more vector based UI. I'm quite admittedly beyond my depth here but RI has to be somewhat of a big deal considering mobile devices are going to need to present different UI options depending on the size.

Appreciate the followup. I wasn't calling you out per se but just making an overall statement. I'm curious to what's important to some people because chances are it'll be important to me once I understand the benefits of how they use the technology.

chrono1081 said:

I though ZFS was no longer and option after the whole Sun being bought out by Oracle thing...(I'd love it if it did become available).

Click to expand...

Pretty much, but like you, I would love to have ZFS as a file system. It is a solid...