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Old Apr 20, 2012, 05:00 PM   #26
Rocketman
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Originally Posted by springerj View Post
You mean to the government that records your title, staffs the fire dept., hires the sheriffs deputies, maintains the roads to get there, supplies the water, processes the sewer, keeps you from fouling the air and water, built the dam and transmission lines that delivers power?
A friend of mine was on a volunteer fire department. It costs 80% less to operate and has awesome equipment, than the department local to me staffed by union, state employed, state owned equipment.

I have a house in the city on the city owned water company. I have one in the desert on a "private company" and yet another with hauled water. I listed them in declining order of cost, with #1 being double the cost of #2 which is 4x the cost of #3.

Property taxes are typically used to pay for city services inclusive of education.

Some of the other things you listed are typically paid for by other pools of funds like sales tax, income tax, gasoline tax, utility tax, etc.

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Old Apr 20, 2012, 05:06 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by appsforkids View Post
LOL, yes it is a beautiful facility and a great way to spend some of that Apple cash, gotta support those great photoshop artists.
No artist needed. The new iPhoto on the iPad could have easily done it.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 05:10 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by chirpie View Post
God bless photoshop for making our businesses' skies and parking lots so pristine.
That's sky is not an uncommon sight in that region of Oregon, my folks live about 20 miles away. And if there's forest fire in the area, the sky really lights up!
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 05:24 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Rocketman View Post
A friend of mine was on a volunteer fire department. It costs 80% less to operate and has awesome equipment, than the department local to me staffed by union, state employed, state owned
If it's volunteer then wouldn't that mean there isn't a payroll expense?

"(Apple) intends for its Prineville data center to run on "100% renewable energy"."

Is that code for burning trees.

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Old Apr 20, 2012, 05:35 PM   #30
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At least 35 jobs? Amazing! That will reduce Oregon`s unemployment!
It isn't Apple's job to create jobs, purely for the sake of putting people to work.

Forward unemployment complaints to the government.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 05:42 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by *LTD* View Post
It isn't Apple's job to create jobs
...but Jobs created Apple!



I agree, though. Datacentres create lots of temporary jobs during construction of the facility - but most of them are basically "lights out" operations managed remotely from a central operations site once they're online.

After they're up and running, the on-site crew is pretty small.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 05:57 PM   #32
Numbah One
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all construction jobs are temporary

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Originally Posted by imageWIS View Post
Yeah, during a set time frame. And then what will those construction workers work on?
All construction jobs are temporary. [highly simplified timeline] Workers come in, clear/level the site, install sewage, build the building, connect it to utilities and leave. What are they supposed to do once the project is built? It's up to the construction company to have projects in the pipeline.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 06:33 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by appsforkids View Post
LOL, yes it is a beautiful facility and a great way to spend some of that Apple cash, gotta support those great photoshop artists.
No really. Siri will be handling most of the work.......
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 06:35 PM   #34
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The power in that area is probably all going to be supplied by hydro or windfarm. The nearest coal-fired plant that I know of is being shut down in a few years (Boardman). I don't know if tthat part of Central Oregon gets any power from the nuke up in Richland WA.

Anyhoo... It's out in the middle of BFE. You wouldn't like it there. The palm trees freeze every winter.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 07:36 PM   #35
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Apple noted earlier this week in response to a Greenpeace report on data centers being powered by coal-derived energy that it intends for its Prineville data center to run on "100% renewable energy".
I'd be quite interested in knowing how much of greenpeace's global operation's are based on renewable energy sources as well as the amount of renewable energy they are rolling out each month! Tho I guess its very much a do as I say not as I do with those guys.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 08:10 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Euroamerican View Post
The power in that area is probably all going to be supplied by hydro or windfarm. The nearest coal-fired plant that I know of is being shut down in a few years (Boardman). I don't know if tthat part of Central Oregon gets any power from the nuke up in Richland WA.

Anyhoo... It's out in the middle of BFE. You wouldn't like it there. The palm trees freeze every winter.
LOL palm trees. (and some people love the high desert living out there)
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 08:21 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by NokX View Post
Land of the free*. Where you have to pay rent to the government for the private property you already bought - or else. <insert suspenseful music>
Try it is the other way around.

The county is giving a MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE tax break to Apple on this one. Chance are the taxes on the land would be a lot closer to 7 figures per year than not.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 08:32 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Rodimus Prime View Post
Try it is the other way around.

The county is giving a MASSIVE and I mean MASSIVE tax break to Apple on this one. Chance are the taxes on the land would be a lot closer to 7 figures per year than not.
That's entirely true.

Localities give preferential treatment on property taxes, to companies that bring traffic or sales taxes. It is likely server firms will say Apple did a BUNCH of research and located in Pineville. Let's go.

Furthermore they can locate a server at any of a dozen locations. They showed commitment, THEN asked for concessions to not pay the same rate a retail house does, on a nearly unmanned server farm that self administers its own emergency services, in a frozen wasteland.

What are the sales taxes in OR?

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Old Apr 20, 2012, 08:39 PM   #39
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What are the sales taxes in OR?

Rocketman
No sales tax in OR.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 09:22 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by cvaldes View Post
Probably another commercial construction project elsewhere in the state.

At least that's how it works here in Silicon Valley. There is a pretty constant stream of construction projects of varying size and complexity. The big commercial construction companies (Devcon, Butler, Arrillaga, etc.) have lots of teams and allocate resources to various projects, some running concurrently.

It's not like they put an ad on Craigslist asking for 250 construction workers for six months.
Yes, in Silicon Valley there is a stream. There has to be because it's passed the scales of self-sustainablity post the year 2000. Space is a premium in SV. When building data centers in a mostly rural state citing about some other projects somewhere else is a joke.

In fact, with easy access to Hydro [Bonneville Power on the Columbia] all these corporations should pay the state to be there, not get tax cuts. Seriously, this ``tax cuts'' to build is a joke. They chose the area for high fiber availability in price and performance, easy power access and cheap land. They don't need tax cuts. All the infrastructure has been built for them.

I would argue this to Steve directly if I were still at Apple. It's a crock of crap by any world corporations to pull such stunts.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 09:41 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by oldwatery View Post
Well said....plus then they gat to pay no taxes for 15 years.
Read it again. They are paying $150000 a year for 15 years.
That project fee is basically their property tax. They are not getting away with paying nothing.



----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by AidenShaw View Post
...but Jobs created Apple!



I agree, though. Datacentres create lots of temporary jobs during construction of the facility - but most of them are basically "lights out" operations managed remotely from a central operations site once they're online.

After they're up and running, the on-site crew is pretty small.
And yet Apple has promised at least 35 of those jobs will be local hires. That could be 50% or more of the staff.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 10:24 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by 6CoreWhore View Post
Here come the Greenpeace versus Apple debates
I don't think anyone is on Greenpeace's side, at least not on this forum.

If we're lucky Wikus might show up with a rant about how Apple isn't giving us choice on something.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 10:42 PM   #43
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35 jobs hahahahahaha, oh that part was priceless.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by mr.steevo View Post
If it's volunteer then wouldn't that mean there isn't a payroll expense?

"(Apple) intends for its Prineville data center to run on "100% renewable energy"."

Is that code for burning trees.

s.
You mean 100% renewable energy, poor people power.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by 6CoreWhore View Post
Here come the Greenpeace versus Apple debates
Here comes the rich people don't care which side wins as long as its me debate.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Will do good View Post
Where can I apply for the 35 jobs that pay 150% of the average wage in the county
At the unemployment line of course. So lets see average wage there is 5.75 a hour times 150% will be a whole 8.62 cents more. Oh man I be one depressed person if that was all I had a chance to make.

Oh these articles are priceless.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by AidenShaw View Post
...but Jobs created Apple!



I agree, though. Datacentres create lots of temporary jobs during construction of the facility - but most of them are basically "lights out" operations managed remotely from a central operations site once they're online.

After they're up and running, the on-site crew is pretty small.
Lets not forget low pay also.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 11:11 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by kiljoy616 View Post
At the unemployment line of course. So lets see average wage there is 5.75 a hour times 150% will be a whole 8.62 cents more.
You are very bad at math.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 11:34 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Supermacguy View Post
Tax incentives for 35 jobs?! 35!!?? Who is running that county?
Keep in mind this is Crook County Oregon. It has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country. That said there are maybe 20,000 people that live in the ENTIRE COUNTY. 35 jobs can make a large difference in such a small employment market.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiljoy616 View Post
35 jobs hahahahahaha, oh that part was priceless.]

At the unemployment line of course. So lets see average wage there is 5.75 a hour times 150% will be a whole 8.62 cents more. Oh man I be one depressed person if that was all I had a chance to make.

Oh these articles are priceless.

------
You may want to check your math and it's 150% of the average county wage. From a two second google search the average pay in Crook County is $16.68 / hour. 150% of that would be $25.02/hr or about $48,000 a year. In Rural Oregon that a very decent job.
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 11:49 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by MacFan23 View Post
I don't think anyone is on Greenpeace's side, at least not on this forum.

If we're lucky Wikus might show up with a rant about how Apple isn't giving us choice on something.
or LTD on how Apple is perfection
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 02:17 AM   #47
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Originally Posted by TimesArrow View Post
so that means the number of unemployed in Crook County Oregon with a salary of ZERO is factored into the calculation of an average salary in CROOK COUNTY to be $2.36. therefore apple is paying $3.54 per hour. stevie really struck a deal for the citizens. does this make Apple or stevie the slavelord? i'd guess there's going to be a load of gas station attendants applying for these jobs! i'd guess we should be on our knees praying and thanking jesus that he (jesus) willed apple to build the data center in america instead of COMMUNIST CHINA!
Ignoring the fact that paying $3.54 is actively against the law in the United States, as that's below minimum wage for non-tip earning jobs, rarely do the unemployed - get factored into the average wages. Beyond that, its remarkable how many zeroes you need to actually drag an average down to absurdly low levels.

Also, Jesus didn't will Apple to do anything, and all-capsing a county name and "Communist China" really doesn't make you look like anything but someone who sends paranoid chain spam to their kids.
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 03:12 AM   #48
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Originally Posted by NokX View Post
Land of the free*. Where you have to pay rent to the government for the private property you already bought - or else. <insert suspenseful music>
Perhaps you think this is clever? They do have to cover incidental expenses and the cost of public services. This is just a reality of society. Whether you feel these things are carried out efficiently is another matter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by *LTD* View Post
It isn't Apple's job to create jobs, purely for the sake of putting people to work.

Forward unemployment complaints to the government.
You're correct. If anything they should blame poor negotiation skills on the part of the county. What entitles Apple to a better deal for a total of 35 jobs? They were silly to accept such terms unless I'm missing details that were omitted in the article. Recall the race to the bottom rhetoric? It applies here too .

Quote:
Originally Posted by TimesArrow View Post
so that means the number of unemployed in Crook County Oregon with a salary of ZERO is factored into the calculation of an average salary in CROOK COUNTY to be $2.36. therefore apple is paying $3.54 per hour. stevie really struck a deal for the citizens. does this make Apple or stevie the slavelord? i'd guess there's going to be a load of gas station attendants applying for these jobs! i'd guess we should be on our knees praying and thanking jesus that he (jesus) willed apple to build the data center in america instead of COMMUNIST CHINA!
You could just make your speculations without the rhetoric and idiotic use of the shift key.
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 03:56 AM   #49
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A horrible deal. Somehow with the current cash assets of known magnitude, corporations should be required to pay a premium. Anywhere. 35 janitorial positions? Looks like even the cleaning staff will be mostly imported from elsewhere.
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 05:51 AM   #50
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You're correct. If anything they should blame poor negotiation skills on the part of the county. What entitles Apple to a better deal for a total of 35 jobs? They were silly to accept such terms unless I'm missing details that were omitted in the article.
It should be noted you almost certainly are missing details - the news article wasn't all that informative. A few reasons why they might be getting a better deal for a total of 35 jobs:

- Many of those jobs may very well be skilled, especially if they're paying above average wages for the area.

- The annual $150,000 is better than $0. Yes, its less than they would make if Apple paid the full property taxes, but there's no guarantee that Apple would locate the data center there in the first place. A good deal means they lock in some amount of income, versus potentially losing the site entirely.

- Those are 35 direct jobs. They may be hoping that the indirect footprint from the Apple center creates more. Infrastructure workers to provide the data center with its power supply, the families of those Apple workers, etc.

- It will boost construction in the short term. Perhaps they're hoping it will keep the construction industry in the area going until the economy is in better shape and large scale building resumes.

- Perhaps they're hoping that a big name company like Apple can "showcase" the county as a place to do business. After all, if one big name data center can get employees, clean power and a friendly government climate, why couldn't two? Microsoft is in the same state. DLR doesn't have any sites in the Pacific Northwest, etc. Areas will often give very steep discounts to a major business hoping that their name, infrastructure, and a bit of cash will help create something like North Carolina's Research Triangle.

Given the success of that, I can't say that I blame them, although it's hard.

- They decided $150,000 a year and 35 decent jobs is better than $0 a year and 0 jobs.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Konrad View Post
A horrible deal. Somehow with the current cash assets of known magnitude, corporations should be required to pay a premium. Anywhere. 35 janitorial positions? Looks like even the cleaning staff will be mostly imported from elsewhere.
Why should corporations be required to "pay a premium"? You are aware that that's not how our market system works at all, right? And where are you getting the notion that Apple is paying 150% the average wage for janitorial positions - many of these are likely tech-focused jobs.

It's not a horrible deal. Apple isn't obligated to locate a data center here. A struggling county gets an assured $150,000 a year, 35+ jobs (and 35+ well payed employees spending into the local economy) and the ability to showcase itself as a clean data center friendly site.

Apple gets a tax break.

Seriously, everyone wins.
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