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Old Apr 20, 2012, 04:09 PM   #1
tekno
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What is it with Apple's convoluted system?

Apple make the hardware and software. They have complete control. So why don't they simplify their own system? Some things in Apple's system seem so much more complicated than they need to be.

1. The whole disk image thing. Why do I need to download the disk image, mount the disk (albeit a non-existent one), open it, drag a picture of an application over a picture of a folder, eject the virtual disk and then delete the disk image all just to install an app?

2. Upgrading the OS. My partner is on 10.5. To get to 10.7 he needed to buy and install 10.6 to then be able to buy and install 10.7. Could 10.7 not work without 10.6??

3. Documents on the iPad. My partner has an iPad and today showed me just how difficult it is to get a doc from Pages on his iPad to Pages on his Mac. Something about going to iTunes, syncing, saving as etc. etc. Looked highly convoluted.

These are just three examples - could they be more simple?
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 04:11 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tekno View Post
Apple make the hardware and software. They have complete control. So why don't they simplify their own system? Some things in Apple's system seem so much more complicated than they need to be.

1. The whole disk image thing. Why do I need to download the disk image, mount the disk (albeit a non-existent one), open it, drag a picture of an application over a picture of a folder, eject the virtual disk and then delete the disk image all just to install an app?

2. Upgrading the OS. My partner is on 10.5. To get to 10.7 he needed to buy and install 10.6 to then be able to buy and install 10.7.

3. Documents on the iPad. My partner has an iPad and today showed me just how difficult it is to get a doc from Pages on his iPad to Pages on his Mac. Something about going to iTunes, syncing, saving as etc. etc. Looked highly convoluted.

These are just three examples - could they be more simple?
1) I dunno
2) If you have a copy of Lion from a current computer, make a dmg image and install from that
3) Use dropbox
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 04:46 PM   #3
tekno
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Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
1) I dunno
2) If you have a copy of Lion from a current computer, make a dmg image and install from that
3) Use dropbox
So, to confirm, your answers appear to be:

1 - You can't see a reason for this
2 - Find an unsupported and un-Apple work-around that probably goes against Apple's user agreement
3 - Use a secondary application in an attempt to circumvent Apple's failings
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 04:48 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by dukebound85 View Post
1) I dunno
2) If you have a copy of Lion from a current computer, make a dmg image and install from that
3) Use dropbox
1. Installing apps on a Mac is very easy, even on windows it requires a setup or install . Exe file no different than a dmg

2. Lion is on the Mac app store that's why you need 10.6 you could skip 10.6 and go straight to lion by purchasing the lion USB

3 don t have an iPad
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 05:32 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tekno View Post
1. The whole disk image thing. Why do I need to download the disk image, mount the disk (albeit a non-existent one), open it, drag a picture of an application over a picture of a folder, eject the virtual disk and then delete the disk image all just to install an app?
This isn't Apple's decision. They use installers for all their apps, or of course in the Mac App Store it skips that step (visibly to the user at least). You're complaining about decisions by third-party developers that have nothing to do with Apple.

Quote:
2. Upgrading the OS. My partner is on 10.5. To get to 10.7 he needed to buy and install 10.6 to then be able to buy and install 10.7. Could 10.7 not work without 10.6??
This was an unusual situation. Usually Apple has let you upgrade in jumps if you wished, but they wanted to distribute Lion via the Mac App Store, which is part of Snow Leopard. Fortunately, you could buy both for less than half the price that Leopard cost, so it's still better overall.

Quote:
3. Documents on the iPad. My partner has an iPad and today showed me just how difficult it is to get a doc from Pages on his iPad to Pages on his Mac. Something about going to iTunes, syncing, saving as etc. etc. Looked highly convoluted.
Supposed to be fixed by iCloud, but of course not working yet. Dropbox is a good solution, not sure why you knocked the other poster's suggestion. I'm guessing you're just looking for things to nitpick about, though, and don't really care about the logic behind your complaints.

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Old Apr 20, 2012, 05:55 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by tekno View Post
So, to confirm, your answers appear to be:

1 - You can't see a reason for this
2 - Find an unsupported and un-Apple work-around that probably goes against Apple's user agreement
3 - Use a secondary application in an attempt to circumvent Apple's failings
1) yes
2)Apple details how to make a bootable usb. With that, you don't need SL.
3) Yes. Works nice if you want to bypass itunes
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Old Apr 20, 2012, 10:37 PM   #7
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Agreed, all of these things are headaches. Try explaining to parents or grandparents what a disk image is, and try explaining why you have to eject a file after installing an app?


Quote:
Originally Posted by tekno View Post
Apple make the hardware and software. They have complete control. So why don't they simplify their own system? Some things in Apple's system seem so much more complicated than they need to be.

1. The whole disk image thing. Why do I need to download the disk image, mount the disk (albeit a non-existent one), open it, drag a picture of an application over a picture of a folder, eject the virtual disk and then delete the disk image all just to install an app?

2. Upgrading the OS. My partner is on 10.5. To get to 10.7 he needed to buy and install 10.6 to then be able to buy and install 10.7. Could 10.7 not work without 10.6??

3. Documents on the iPad. My partner has an iPad and today showed me just how difficult it is to get a doc from Pages on his iPad to Pages on his Mac. Something about going to iTunes, syncing, saving as etc. etc. Looked highly convoluted.

These are just three examples - could they be more simple?
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Old Apr 21, 2012, 04:21 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by vistadude View Post
Agreed, all of these things are headaches. Try explaining to parents or grandparents what a disk image is, and try explaining why you have to eject a file after installing an app?
Explaining how to use the App Store is drop-dead simple, however. That's Apple's system, not this business of disk images. Apple only ever uses those for things that only developers or techs will see, never for customer-facing installations. Again, you're complaining about a problem as if Apple needs to fix it when they already use a much better method themselves.

Also, any third-party developers could be using zip files that automatically extract to an installer or to a simple .app package that simply needs to be moved to the Applications folder (and some of them even do it for you automatically on first run), but the disk image installer has become convention for many, and they forget that it's confusing to novice users.

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Old Apr 22, 2012, 10:17 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tekno View Post
1. The whole disk image thing. Why do I need to download the disk image, mount the disk (albeit a non-existent one), open it, drag a picture of an application over a picture of a folder, eject the virtual disk and then delete the disk image all just to install an app?
This is much better and easier than installing .exe on Windows. So much easier I feel a relief.
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 10:41 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by matrix07 View Post
This is much better and easier than installing .exe on Windows. So much easier I feel a relief.
It may be easier than Windows, but is it actually easy? Again, Windows needs a work on a huge number of different machines whereas OSX only needs to work on machines designed and built by Apple.

Surely you're not saying that installing apps on Macs is perfect and cannot be improved?
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 10:46 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by tekno View Post
It may be easier than Windows, but is it actually easy? Again, Windows needs a work on a huge number of different machines whereas OSX only needs to work on machines designed and built by Apple.

Surely you're not saying that installing apps on Macs is perfect and cannot be improved?
All I can say is when my Mac friend taught me how to install app I said "wow! That's it?". Surely everything can be improved upon but let's keep things in perspective a little bit.
And installing from MAS is even easier.
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 10:47 AM   #12
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Dragging a file to install something is piss easy, I don't see how you can complain about that. And with the Mac App Store you just install things with a click if you want.

You can skip SL if you get Lion on a USB key or external HD or something. I did this even though I do have SL because I prefer clean installs.

As for the iCloud thing, just use Dropbox.
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 10:52 AM   #13
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Dragging a file to install something is piss easy, I don't see how you can complain about that. And with the Mac App Store you just install things with a click if you want.
Except you don't just drag something. There's all the 'disk image' mounting/unmounting/deleting etc. Although I admit the App Store works a treat (even though there's still a lot of stuff that's not on there.

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Originally Posted by 0dev View Post
You can skip SL if you get Lion on a USB key or external HD or something. I did this even though I do have SL because I prefer clean installs.
Didn't know that. I thought I read only the other day that Apple were giving away SL to allow people to upgrade to Lion.

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As for the iCloud thing, just use Dropbox.
I take it that by suggesting one uses a non-Apple work-around you're admitting Apple's system is inferior.
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Old Apr 22, 2012, 12:34 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by tekno View Post
Except you don't just drag something. There's all the 'disk image' mounting/unmounting/deleting etc. Although I admit the App Store works a treat (even though there's still a lot of stuff that's not on there.
Double click, drag, click. Not difficult.

Quote:
Didn't know that. I thought I read only the other day that Apple were giving away SL to allow people to upgrade to Lion.


Quote:
I take it that by suggesting one uses a non-Apple work-around you're admitting Apple's system is inferior.
Different services work better for different people's needs, neither has to necessarily be "inferior". I personally use Dropbox because it's compatible with all my non-Apple devices.
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Old Apr 29, 2012, 09:16 PM   #15
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Originally Posted by tekno View Post
I take it that by suggesting one uses a non-Apple work-around you're admitting Apple's system is inferior.
Even better, everyone's telling you to use DropBox to get docs from Pages on the iPad over to Pages on the Mac, but that won't work without adding yet another third party layer into the mix in the form of something like DropDav (currently $5 per month). Here's an article that talks about it, but be aware that the limited free option it mentions appears to be no longer available.

I love DropBox and use it multiple times daily. Plenty of useful iOS apps (like GoodReader) seamlessly interact with it. Pages can't and, yes, that sucks.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 10:30 AM   #16
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Originally Posted by tekno View Post
Apple make the hardware and software. They have complete control. So why don't they simplify their own system? Some things in Apple's system seem so much more complicated than they need to be.
Short answer: they're working on it.

Quote:
1. The whole disk image thing. Why do I need to download the disk image, mount the disk (albeit a non-existent one), open it, drag a picture of an application over a picture of a folder, eject the virtual disk and then delete the disk image all just to install an app?
Agreed, seems like this process could be streamlined. This is why I distribute my OS X app as a .zip containing the .app bundle directly. Download .zip, double-click to extract, move the .app to Applications folder.

Quote:
2. Upgrading the OS. My partner is on 10.5. To get to 10.7 he needed to buy and install 10.6 to then be able to buy and install 10.7. Could 10.7 not work without 10.6??
Apple can only do so much with older hardware. This problem does not exist with the products they are currently selling. For older ones, you could make a bootable Lion install USB/DVD.

Quote:
3. Documents on the iPad. My partner has an iPad and today showed me just how difficult it is to get a doc from Pages on his iPad to Pages on his Mac. Something about going to iTunes, syncing, saving as etc. etc. Looked highly convoluted.
Already fixed in OS X Mountain Lion, wait for summer. You can save/load from iCloud in both OS X ML and on iOS 5.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 11:14 AM   #17
tekno
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Short answer: they're working on it.
What's the long answer? Because there are a lot of things about Apple products that never seem to improve, like the disk image thing.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 11:26 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tekno View Post
Apple make the hardware and software. They have complete control. So why don't they simplify their own system? Some things in Apple's system seem so much more complicated than they need to be.

1. The whole disk image thing. Why do I need to download the disk image, mount the disk (albeit a non-existent one), open it, drag a picture of an application over a picture of a folder, eject the virtual disk and then delete the disk image all just to install an app?

2. Upgrading the OS. My partner is on 10.5. To get to 10.7 he needed to buy and install 10.6 to then be able to buy and install 10.7. Could 10.7 not work without 10.6??

3. Documents on the iPad. My partner has an iPad and today showed me just how difficult it is to get a doc from Pages on his iPad to Pages on his Mac. Something about going to iTunes, syncing, saving as etc. etc. Looked highly convoluted.

These are just three examples - could they be more simple?


1. Because applications are bundles of files in a package and to ensure safe delivery across a variety of filesystems (read internet) you need to encapsulate this package of files into a safe "vessel". Without a DMG the potential for data being stripped from the package is higher. It's the same reason why some people will send you a zipped archive of files rather than just attach the files in email. They are preventing data loss by locking everything into a safe "vessel" for transport.

2. Because 10.5 as distributed on disc and 10.7 is a digital download.


3. Email is the quickest way but iCloud will render this issue moot this summer.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 11:49 AM   #19
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Originally Posted by nuckinfutz View Post
Quote:
1. The whole disk image thing. Why do I need to download the disk image, mount the disk (albeit a non-existent one), open it, drag a picture of an application over a picture of a folder, eject the virtual disk and then delete the disk image all just to install an app?
1. Because applications are bundles of files in a package and to ensure safe delivery across a variety of filesystems (read internet) you need to encapsulate this package of files into a safe "vessel". Without a DMG the potential for data being stripped from the package is higher. It's the same reason why some people will send you a zipped archive of files rather than just attach the files in email. They are preventing data loss by locking everything into a safe "vessel" for transport.
I think what he means is...

Why can't you download a .dmg and move it to your Applications folder, in order to install said app. The mounting, copying, unmounting and deleting can be done transparently. Or some other improved User Interaction to install downloaded apps...

Now that I think about it, they've already solved this problem too: it's called the Mac App Store. One click on "Download" and voilą.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 12:04 PM   #20
tekno
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Why can't you download a .dmg and move it to your Applications folder, in order to install said app. The mounting, copying, unmounting and deleting can be done transparently. Or some other improved User Interaction to install downloaded apps...
Exactly. Computers need to do all sorts of things, but the more it can do without input from me, the better as far as I'm concerned.

You're absolutely right about the app store, too.
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Old Apr 30, 2012, 12:35 PM   #21
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Now that I think about it, they've already solved this problem too: it's called the Mac App Store. One click on "Download" and voilą.
For a while I used an app called Dropzone which would open a DMG, move the file and then shut down and delete the DMG file. It worked about 80% of the time.

Now I just try to concentrate most of my purchases towards the Mac App Store. It's just easier.
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Old May 6, 2012, 01:07 PM   #22
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I used iWork.com to iCloud my Pages docs to all my iOS and Macs

Apple says mid July and they turn off iWork.com so am hoping they will release 5.2/5.1.x to pick it up before hand...
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Old May 12, 2012, 01:34 AM   #23
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What I hate on the mac is all the syncing you have to do. God bless drag and drop.
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