Death penalty and racism.

[Zombie Acorn]

Originally Posted by mcrain

You posted stats, but you misinterpreted them in a way that is common, but still wrong. Blacks don't "commit" 52% of the homocides, they are 52% of the homocide convictions. There are a lot of unsolved homocides and not-guilty verdicts. In addition, there are a LOT of cases that end up resolved through plea to a lesser charge.

In other words, the statistics you posted do nothing more than prove the point that blacks are treated disproportionately worse than caucasions.

15,094 total homocides. 9,972 male 1,075 female 4,047 unknown 4,849 white, 5,770 black 251 other 4,224 unknown
Percent distribution1 total 100.0 66.1 male 7.1 female 26.8 unknown 32.1 white 38.2 black 1.7 other 28.0 unknown FBI

And I am sure a good enough portion of those unsolved homicides are due to gang violence where someone gets shot on the road and no one reports it because its common place. I don't think your additional statistic is going to be a net positive for your argument. Its not like white people are hiding bodies away in freezers and just never getting caught because they are white. That is ridiculous.

None of your other variables should make a notable difference between blacks and whites, they should be insane at about the same rate (unless theres a white insanity epidemic that I am not aware of).

This is all about searching for excuses instead of solutions. Carry on.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn

This is all about searching for excuses instead of solutions. Carry on.

Again, it's not about searching for excuses.

It's about searching for the truth.

And I can't imagine any social scientist worth their salt who would accept your statistics as evidence in themselves.

Your statistics reveal trends, but don't explain the causes to them. And that's where the real answers lie.

[Zombie Acorn]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Again, it's not about searching for excuses.

It's about searching for the truth.

And I can't imagine any social scientist worth their salt who would accept your statistics as evidence in themselves.

Your statistics reveal trends, but don't explain the causes to them. And that's where the real answers lie.

No, its about searching for the truth anywhere but inside of the black community. It has to be an external cause, it can't be something that they are creating by themselves, because thats racist.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn

No, its about searching for the truth anywhere but inside of the black community. It has to be an external cause, it can't be something that they are creating by themselves, because thats racist.

Please.

If someone could find an internal cause, then there would be plenty of people like you or I who would advocate for alleviating that cause. We're talking about people's lives here ... not just their hurt feelings.

So what have you read that indicates the cause is internal?

What is it?

[Zombie Acorn]

Originally Posted by citizenzen

Please.

If someone could find an internal cause, then there would be plenty of people like you or I who would advocate for alleviating that cause. We're talking about people's lives here ... not just their hurt feelings.

So what have you read that indicates the cause is internal?

What is it?

Can 6-7% of the population causing 50%+ of the convicted homicides be anything but internally caused? What makes you decide it is alright to kill another person? Does a white man make you do that? What about raping someone? White man's fault again?

Who's raising these kids?

[184550]

Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn

No, its about searching for the truth anywhere but inside of the black community. It has to be an external cause, it can't be something that they are creating by themselves, because thats racist.

Thank you. Mods, close this thread now, this thread is finished.

I think it's an utterly silly law that our state has on the books.

If a disproportionate number of African-Americans commit crimes that carry a death penalty sentence, then a disproportionate number of African-Americans are going to be on death row.

Sure, this is a slippery slope argument, but what's next? Affirmative action for death row.

Racism has nothing to do with it. How long are they going to limp along on that crutch? I cannot tell you the number of African-Americans in the public school systems in NC that think the term 'Racism' applies exclusively to African-Americans.

I don't know if this article cites the low number of African-Americans on juries, but same rule from above applies here. If only 10% of the community is African-American, then it stands to reason that about 10% of the jury will be African-American.

I'd be interested in seeing some stats for the number of African-Americans who actually show up for jury duty and the number then selected to serve on a jury.

[citizenzen]

Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn

Can 6-7% of the population causing 50%+ of the convicted homicides be anything but internally caused?

How would you know without studying the problem?

[CorvusCamenarum]

Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn

Who's raising these kids?

Apparently no one.

[iJohnHenry]

Originally Posted by CorvusCamenarum

Apparently no one.

Society, as exhibited by the social engineers that have 'dabbled' in the procedure.

Then, when the **** hits the fan, they blame the parents.

Maybe they are failed weathermen??

[NickZac]

Originally Posted by NathanMuir

Thank you. Mods, close this thread now, this thread is finished.

I think it's an utterly silly law that our state has on the books.

If a disproportionate number of African-Americans commit crimes that carry a death penalty sentence, then a disproportionate number of African-Americans are going to be on death row.

Sure, this is a slippery slope argument, but what's next? Affirmative action for death row.

Racism has nothing to do with it. How long are they going to limp along on that crutch? I cannot tell you the number of African-Americans in the public school systems in NC that think the term 'Racism' applies exclusively to African-Americans.

I don't know if this article cites the low number of African-Americans on juries, but same rule from above applies here. If only 10% of the community is African-American, then it stands to reason that about 10% of the jury will be African-American.

I'd be interested in seeing some stats for the number of African-Americans who actually show up for jury duty and the number then selected to serve on a jury.

A variety of studies have identified differences in actual sentences by race, as well as differences in the sentences by the race of the victim. One of the schools I went to did a study on this (http://www.newsdesk.umd.edu/sociss/r...?ArticleID=265).

Also, most death penalty studies have looked at who is sentenced to die. Only a few looked at who dies relative to who is on death row. There seems to be racial bias going more than one way here. How so? Last I read, more whites are executed than blacks, which indicates that it is more politically correct and easier to execute a white person.

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by NickZac

Only a few looked at who dies relative to who is on death row. There seems to be racial bias going more than one way here. How so? Last I read, more whites are executed than blacks, which indicates that it is more politically correct and easier to execute a white person.

Interesting stuff if true. You would expect it to be about equal.

[NickZac]

Originally Posted by Eraserhead

Interesting stuff if true. You would expect it to be about equal.

Here are some web stats, so they are probably not completely accurate but this will show an interesting occurence.

http://www.deathpenaltyinfo.org/race...-executed-1976

Racial breakdown of those executed...
56% white
35% black
7% Latino
2% other


Racial breakdown of those on death row...
44% white
41% black
12% Latino
2% other


Now of course this is neglecting trend data or racial-shift, which I read about in a few articles a few years ago, but the findings were that what determined who was sentenced to the death penalty was influenced by race, as was who actually was executed. Now of course, the issue here is geography. Whites are spread more evenly than other races (minority groups are often concentrated in select areas), and so this could just be that more whites are spread throughout death penalty systems, which do not operate in 'sync' with other states nor do States operate proportionally with each other (i.e.: they take 'turns' killing people), nor do States randomly choose a person on death row randomly from a hat and that person is the one to get the injection. However, it is impossible to say if that is the case for sure without trend data by state on executions compared with trend data on crime by trend data on the US Census population distribution...and a study like that would be massive, require ridiculous amounts of funding, would be subject to data mining, and take years. But what can be said is that the actual sentences given to an offender by their crime is not consistent. However, race is only one of many variables that affect this. Also, given different States have different sentencing laws, even cross-comparing stats by state can be problematic. So death penalty statistics, and crime statistics in general, are problematic.

[hulugu]

Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn

Can 6-7% of the population causing 50%+ of the convicted homicides be anything but internally caused? What makes you decide it is alright to kill another person? Does a white man make you do that? What about raping someone? White man's fault again?

Who's raising these kids?

If we understand that the criminal justice system treats black men differently than other races, we can start to see how an endemic system may create a path for poverty and criminality that is difficult to escape from.

African-American men are less likely to get treatment programs, work release programs, vocational training. They are also less likely to get parole and have, as a population, higher bond rates and are less likely to get bonds.

African-Americans are also more likely to be tried and convicted for drug offenses, even for possessing the same amount. A classic and continued example of this is the difference in penalties for crack and cocaine. The first has much harsher penalties even though it is a cheap derivative of the second.

Couple this with rampant poverty, underfunded schools and a complete lack of social cohesion and you've got a recipe for generational criminality.

This function creates a kind of gravity well that exerts so much force on people that it takes an incredible will, and luck, to escape from.

A meta-analysis once compared poor whites to poor blacks in South Carolina and still found variations in how the criminal justice system treated men convicted for the same crimes, some under the same judge and police forces. If I can find it, I'll post it.

[B777Forevar]

Everything is being connected to racism these days.

[hulugu]

Originally Posted by B777Forevar

Everything is being connected to racism these days.

Just because you weren't aware of it doesn't mean it's new.

Complaints about the inherent racism of the criminal justice system come from analyses going back more than 30 years.

[Sedulous]

Originally Posted by B777Forevar

Everything is being connected to racism these days.

I've decided I am going to be offended by everything.

[Zombie Acorn]

Originally Posted by hulugu

If we understand that the criminal justice system treats black men differently than other races, we can start to see how an endemic system may create a path for poverty and criminality that is difficult to escape from.

African-American men are less likely to get treatment programs, work release programs, vocational training. They are also less likely to get parole and have, as a population, higher bond rates and are less likely to get bonds.

African-Americans are also more likely to be tried and convicted for drug offenses, even for possessing the same amount. A classic and continued example of this is the difference in penalties for crack and cocaine. The first has much harsher penalties even though it is a cheap derivative of the second.

Couple this with rampant poverty, underfunded schools and a complete lack of social cohesion and you've got a recipe for generational criminality.

This function creates a kind of gravity well that exerts so much force on people that it takes an incredible will, and luck, to escape from.

A meta-analysis once compared poor whites to poor blacks in South Carolina and still found variations in how the criminal justice system treated men convicted for the same crimes, some under the same judge and police forces. If I can find it, I'll post it.

I don't buy these studies, they don't examine the convicted felons backgrounds which is very important during sentencing, repeat offenders obviously get harsher penalties and in some areas its 3 strikes you are out. Every crime is different and there is no way to control for these variances.

Continually excusing the behavior of a very small section of our society is not the answer and your analysis still does not explain how 6% of a populace competes for murders with whites who have a heavy majority. You can't blame killing on poor education, humans have an instinctive nature to not kill each other unless provoked.

A small section of the black populace has decided that it is okay to be poor, live on the taxpayer dime, not get educated and perpetuate the cycle. I actually feel sorry for the majority of blacks who have to put up with **** because this small minority can't get their **** straight. I don't see any excuses or sympathies being poured on white trailer parks, you know why? Because they earned their spot, they chose it. In the US you get free public education which is adequate to get you to college if you attend and pay attention. If you are poor your grants will easily cover at the very least community college, there's the way out, good luck, no ones going to baby you along the way.

[HarryPot]

Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn

I don't buy these studies, they don't examine the convicted felons backgrounds which is very important during sentencing, repeat offenders obviously get harsher penalties and in some areas its 3 strikes you are out. Every crime is different and there is no way to control for these variances.

Continually excusing the behavior of a very small section of our society is not the answer and your analysis still does not explain how 6% of a populace competes for murders with whites who have a heavy majority. You can't blame killing on poor education, humans have an instinctive nature to not kill each other unless provoked.

I haven't read the whole thread... but just yesterday I finished reading the chapter about crime in the book The Bell Curve. A very "polemical" book, which in reality is a very well done research that analyzes things no one seemed to do because it is "racist".

Anyways, in this chapter they conclude that intelligence (cognitive ability, IQ) is what really makes a person commit a crime or not. Regarding their statistics, the higher cognitive ability an individual has, the less probability he has to commit a crime.

They made the same study considering education and socioeconomic background, and the results was still the same. What influences more is cognate ability.

Their conclusions were that the higher cognitive ability that you have, the higher the chances the individual has to reason and decide that committing a crime is bad. Now, I haven't finished the book, so I don't know yet what they propose as a solution.

[thewitt]

Don't worry, we will see legal system quotas soon enough. Arrests will only be possible if they reflect the population distribution. Once one special interest group, whether it be racial or socially motivated, meets its quota, no more arrests will be made within that group.....

...sounds like a great move plot....but there are some who believe this would be a good thing, and they are even on this forum...

[Peterkro]

Originally Posted by HarryPot

I haven't read the whole thread... but just yesterday I finished reading the chapter about crime in the book The Bell Curve. A very "polemical" book, which in reality is a very well done research that analyzes things no one seemed to do because it is "racist".

Anyways, in this chapter they conclude that intelligence (cognitive ability, IQ) is what really makes a person commit a crime or not. Regarding their statistics, the higher cognitive ability an individual has, the less probability he has to commit a crime.

They made the same study considering education and socioeconomic background, and the results was still the same. What influences more is cognate ability.

Their conclusions were that the higher cognitive ability that you have, the higher the chances the individual has to reason and decide that committing a crime is bad. Now, I haven't finished the book, so I don't know yet what they propose as a solution.

Or possibly having swallowed enough of the rules to know what sort of answers are required to score a bit higher on IQ tests they also know enough of the rules to be less likely to get caught.

[HarryPot]

Originally Posted by Peterkro

Or possibly having swallowed enough of the rules to know what sort of answers are required to score a bit higher on IQ tests they also know enough of the rules to be less likely to get caught.

Not sure if you are being sarcastic....

But they do take into account that perspective, that higher cognate individuals are able to fool the police and remain free. Their conclusions is that it doesn't seem to be happening.

As for being able to score higher on an IQ test by memorizing something.... I'm under the impression that is not really possible. Unless you have the actual test, which would be cheating. IQ is mainly logic questions, mostly regarding numbers or sequences.

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by thewitt

Don't worry, we will see legal system quotas soon enough. Arrests will only be possible if they reflect the population distribution. Once one special interest group, whether it be racial or socially motivated, meets its quota, no more arrests will be made within that group.....

...sounds like a great move plot....but there are some who believe this would be a good thing, and they are even on this forum...

If you've read the recent thread about London policing its interesting to see how stop and search is used.

Blacks seem to get stopped far more often than whites with the same background, and richer whites rarely if ever get stopped at all.

The evidence I've seen on drug use points to usage being reasonably steady on income grounds, if not higher for the rich. I suppose people get stopped and searched for "looking suspicious" and for weapons, but I don't think that whites with the same background would be less likely to fall into those categories.

Now its possible that the US is more mature about race issues than the UK, but to be honest until the denial that it could be an issue stops it is likely to be one.

[Zombie Acorn]

Originally Posted by Eraserhead

If you've read the recent thread about London policing its interesting to see how stop and search is used.

Blacks seem to get stopped far more often than whites with the same background, and richer whites rarely if ever get stopped at all.

The evidence I've seen on drug use points to usage being reasonably steady on income grounds, if not higher for the rich. I suppose people get stopped and searched for "looking suspicious" and for weapons, but I don't think that whites with the same background would be less likely to fall into those categories.

Now its possible that the US is more mature about race issues than the UK, but to be honest until the denial that it could be an issue stops it is likely to be one.

I think this partially has to do with the neighborhoods blacks are getting caught in. If you have a high violent crime area and you are buying drugs there you are more likely to get caught because thats where the cops are. If you are buying drugs in a suburban area and smoking up in your house you are much less likely to get caught.

Thats a whole different bag of **** though, the war on drugs is obviously a failure.

White people actually get profiled in these high crime areas and told to leave because the cops know the only reason they are there is to buy drugs.

[Eraserhead]

Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn

I think this partially has to do with the neighborhoods blacks are getting caught in. If you have a high violent crime area

The working class areas that have whites living there too, and those people don't get pulled over for stop and search as frequently as the blacks do. That was the point made by the people talking about London.

And its not as if the police ever pull people over in the city in London and do stop and search there. I bet if you did that on a Friday morning you'd catch a whole bunch of people with cocaine.

[hulugu]

Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn

I don't buy these studies, they don't examine the convicted felons backgrounds which is very important during sentencing, repeat offenders obviously get harsher penalties and in some areas its 3 strikes you are out. Every crime is different and there is no way to control for these variances.

Actually, you can correct for these variations using meta analysis methods.

Blacks are still more likely to be stopped, arrested, convicted and imprisoned.

...A small section of the black populace has decided that it is okay to be poor, live on the taxpayer dime, not get educated and perpetuate the cycle.

This is a weird statement, do you honestly think that people are making a rational choice to "perpetuate the cycle." To make this decision, you'd first have to understand that there's a cycle and even a choice.

...I actually feel sorry for the majority of blacks who have to put up with **** because this small minority can't get their **** straight. I don't see any excuses or sympathies being poured on white trailer parks, you know why?

Well, I'm actually noting that similar asymmetries exist for variations in class as well. Poor white people are more likely to go to jail for the same offenses as wealthier white people because the wealthy can hire good lawyers and exert influence in a way that a poor white person cannot.

...Because they earned their spot, they chose it. In the US you get free public education which is adequate to get you to college if you attend and pay attention. If you are poor your grants will easily cover at the very least community college, there's the way out, good luck, no ones going to baby you along the way.

Back to my point about inertia. It's easier for white middle-class people to understand the system well-enough to exploit its advantages. Poor people don't have the guidance counselors to foist grant applications on them, a computer to fill out the online applications, or the understanding that filling out a FAFSA means loans and grants for college.

Understanding that people can grow up behind the eight-ball isn't "babying" them, it's an acknowledgment of a truth. If we understand the disease, we can more easily treat symptoms. You keep telling the patient to take an aspirin and walk it off.