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kyjaotkb

macrumors 6502a
Nov 20, 2009
937
883
London, UK
I have the same question. I bought into the iTunes ecosystem only when the iPod started supporting ALAC playback and I expected ALAC content on iTunes to be just around the corner.

Here we are in 2012 and I've never purchased a song from iTunes. If they started selling them in ALAC, I would buy hundreds.

Bandwidth cost is important plus the market is not very large, so many people don't care about sound quality or have crappy connections...

Same point as to why there is no decent HD video on iTunes or elsewhere... if you want the purest quality, you still have to get physical media - for the moment !
 

overcast

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2007
997
6
Rochester, NY
Bandwidth cost is important plus the market is not very large, so many people don't care about sound quality or have crappy connections...

Same point as to why there is no decent HD video on iTunes or elsewhere... if you want the purest quality, you still have to get physical media - for the moment !

So offer the option, this isn't rocket science here.
 

88 King

macrumors 6502
Jun 18, 2011
377
0
London, UK
Bingo! We have a winner.

Once you've heard that file format, there is no going back. It's that good.

Music at 192KHz and 24 bits is very hard to find and only target at audiophiles, not the mass market.
The file itself is almost 10 times the size of CD, and wasted for normal pop and R&B reordings where the frequency is very narrow.

I do have some Mozart Symphonies (4 to 5 GB each album) in 88,96 and 192KHz FLAC format that sounds amazing compared to CDs.
 

doctorossi

macrumors member
Apr 16, 2008
54
0
Amazing superhuman hearing you have to get up to 96khz, while the rest of us mortals top out at 22khz.

You're mixing musical metaphors. 22khz is around the peak audio frequency people can hear, not the peak sample rate.

----------

Bandwidth cost is important

I'm downloading 2GB tv episodes from iTunes every week. Somehow I doubt 300MB albums would be a big issue.

plus the market is not very large, so many people don't care about sound quality or have crappy connections...

Would someone be forcing those people to buy? :confused:
 

Macman45

macrumors G5
Jul 29, 2011
13,197
135
Somewhere Back In The Long Ago
If you are fortunate enough to own a pair of high quality studio monitors, then yes there is a difference....Played through my Genelecs, I can discern it...Also through a pair of recording cans.

Would I bother to hook up all my studio gear to play music when I have a perfectly acceptable 7.1 DTS system connected to my iMac and ATV?

No.
 

scottsjack

macrumors 68000
Aug 25, 2010
1,906
311
Arizona
I totally disagree that iTunes music sounds good enough. I play my music either with an iPhone 3Gs, a 2010 Mac Pro or a late 2008 15in uMacBook Pro. The sound is delivered either through a pair of $40.00ish Sony headphones or through a rather old $150.00 wired three-piece computer speaker set. In my apartment that's it since my Pioneer Elite/Mirage 7 channel sound system is currently hiding in a closet.

Here are a couple of things that I've recently discovered;

Via an EyeTV Hybrid I've DVR'd a few episodes of 'Cold Case' and used Audio Hijack to make copies of the ending songs for playback in iTunes. I believe that the sound from the unencrypted Clear QAM is 44.1kHz/16bit. Because the songs are truncated I decided to buy the iTunes versions and compare.

1. The sound quality of Apple's versions totally sucks compared to the DVR/Audio Hijack versions. "Fix You" by Coldplay is very fuzzy from iTunes and as clear as a bell from HD TV.

2. One of my favorite albums is 'Chicago II'. The presumably 44.1kHz/16bit CD version is one of those messes where two olden-days LPs are compressed onto one CD. To be honest it sounds like crap even compared to "Chicago 17" which I also own on CD.

I bought the 96kHz/24bit FLAC version from HDtracks, an excellent provider of quality music. I transcoded the FLAC into Apple Lossless with an App Store cheapie. The difference is unbelievable. For my iPhone I used a lossy Apple codec. The 3Gs definitely has a lower quality output amp compared to the MBP or MP. Even there the difference is amazing.

I have some other music from HDtracks that has been converted to m4a or m4v for iTunes since everything I buy from them is either 192kHz/24bit or 96kHz/24bit FLAC. In every case the sound quality and dynamics are spectacular compared to CD versions.

If people want the convenience and ease of iTunes downloads and the music sounds good enough for them then I say fine. However my personal experience show that even on the humble playback equipment I use there is no comparison between the sound quality of anything I've bought from iTunes or on CD and what I get from HDtracks on 192kHz/24bit or 96kHz/24bit FLAC.

Companies that want to sell music to me better provide 192kHz/24bit or 96kHz/24bit files. I'm willing to pay more because I get so much more.
 

yancey47

macrumors regular
May 21, 2008
186
0
Unfortunately until "Mastering Engineers" stop with the "Loud is good" ********, none of this matters.

Its literally the practice of polishing a turd.


I don't totally get the video. Are you talking about "Bricking"? Jason Ward and Bob Weston are VERY respected engineers and definitely aren't brickers.
 

doctorossi

macrumors member
Apr 16, 2008
54
0
Yes, now go look up the Nyquist theorem. To accurately represent a frequency your sampling rate must be double.

The ability to represent higher frequencies is not the only quality you gain by using a higher sampling rate.
 

cargath

macrumors member
Jul 25, 2011
37
0
This. All I want is a higher quality master copy of my digital songs. 128-256 is great for my ipod + headphones but there's a huge difference playing lossless files through my 7.1 setup vs compressed audio files.

I realize I'm in the minority but it has always felt wrong buying less-than-cd-quality tracks as my "master copy".

I want them to sell ALAC too, but i'd happily bet you all my money that this statement wouldn't survive a blind test.

Agree. I regret ripping all my CD's years ago and tossing them. Had I known better I might have better quality tracks. I don't even see CD's for sale any more, it seems all digital now. Are there any online stores that sell better quality tracks? Are CD's/lossless still the best way to go?

(also regret iTunes Match, hot mess).

CDs ARE digital. And you can get them at every record store.

Vinyls rocks, oh Sound Snob.

Vinyl rocks, but it doesn't sound better, it sounds different.
 

Owen Imholte

macrumors newbie
Jan 20, 2012
15
0
Granted it was only a few tracks that I noticed, but then I wondered about what % of my collection also had problems like this that I had not listened to recently or caught (and I have excellent ears).

This is a good point and I never did exhaustive testing (consistent ABX gets tiring) and have probably falsely attributed other flaws I heard to bad recordings.

----------
I'm just heading out for the evening, but when I get home I'll take a look through my library and see if I can find some examples. They are all from commercial releases, though some may be on boutique labels. Either way, I'll do my best to get some names and albums over to you :)

I guarantee you, however, that the original sources in every case were 16/44.1 Red Book CDs, losslessly ripped to FLAC.

Sweeeet! Thanks very much. I'm at work for a while so I may be spotty on the thread until later tonight.
 

ftaok

macrumors 603
Jan 23, 2002
6,487
1,572
East Coast
There's also iTunes Match, so if you waited long enough you could upgrade from 128 KBit with DRM to 256 KBit DRM-free at no extra cost. So there is some hope.

Is that true? I thought I read that old iTS songs (128-DRM) would be available in the cloud as 128-DRM.

If this really mattered to me, iTunes Match would be a better deal for me at $25/year ... as opposed to upgrading my library to iTunes plus at 30 cents/song. I have about 200 songs with DRM.

ft
 

Rocko1

macrumors 68020
Nov 3, 2011
2,070
4
Unfortunately until "Mastering Engineers" stop with the "Loud is good" ********, none of this matters.

Its literally the practice of polishing a turd.

This hold true for newer music, but plenty of music was engineered fantastically and yet is ruined by the crappy low bitrate. 256 is simply not enough for anyone who has a decent ear.
 

benpatient

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2003
1,870
0
My ALAC and WAV files tend to clock in at around 10x the size of a compressed file. When people ask my about the file size difference, the easiest way I explain it is, "A 5 min song in a Compressed format is around 5MB, where Uncompressed is closer to 50MB."

ALAC is compressed. It's a linear, lossless compression, so no data is lost (Like ZIP). the compression ratio is completely dependent on the source material. Your ALAC files will NEVER be the same size as a WAV, unless it's a really unique kind of file (For example, DTS-encoded 6 channel audio from a DTS CD like this: The Police Greatest Hits DTS-CD

A 5 minute WAV file, uncompressed, will the the same size no matter what kind of sounds it is holding (provided the same bitrate, etc), but an ALAC will be a different (and always smaller) size, depending on the actual content. If you burn and convert a DTS-encoded CD, it will typically not compress much at all. It will show up in iTunes at 1350+ kb/s depending on the track. A 5 minute WAV track of near-silence may show up as 100-200 kb/s when converted to ALAC.
 

dona83

macrumors 6502
Nov 26, 2004
319
47
Kelowna, BC
I own a few DVD-Audios and they sound just amazing. Too bad the format never took off. 24-bit/96 khz would be a huge step forward over CD quality.
 

benpatient

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2003
1,870
0
Okay, im curious. What else do you gain?

well, it's not from the sample rate, but a higher bit size (for example 24bit) allows for much larger dynamic contrast (difference in volume).

There are still a lot of CDs out there with HDCD encoding that allows a compliant processor to read extended bit information on the disc while still playing in "regular" CD players without issue. The resulting CDs are effectively 20 bit recordings instead of 16, and owning a couple of them, I can tell you that a good processor, a good amp, and some good speakers make it easy to hear the difference. I paid 2 dollars for Joni Mitchell's "Blue" album on HDCD at a garage sale, and it's much more open and dynamic than my other CD. My wife can hear a difference, which means there is a difference. I think what happens is that they compress what was once a dynamic master into more radio-friendly "loud" versions.

I got some Supertramp CDs from Japan that are head and shoulders better than what I've found in the states. Those albums were so well produced, it's the crime of the century that their current US releases are so flat and loud and dull. I would rather have a 128kbps mp3 with un-modified dynamics than a 256kbps AAC file with the now-standard levels of "loudness" compression. Yes, you have to turn up the stereo more to reach the same average volume, but when the drums kick, they REALLY kick, like they were supposed to.

I could say more, but I need to go listen to Supertramp, now.
 

dj-anon

macrumors member
Mar 23, 2011
93
2
Meh... all the people asking for their placebo (lossless formats,) when AAC is transparent at around 160 kbps. iTunes files are 256 kbps.
 

overcast

macrumors 6502a
Jun 27, 2007
997
6
Rochester, NY
well, it's not from the sample rate, but a higher bit size (for example 24bit) allows for much larger dynamic contrast (difference in volume).

There are still a lot of CDs out there with HDCD encoding that allows a compliant processor to read extended bit information on the disc while still playing in "regular" CD players without issue. The resulting CDs are effectively 20 bit recordings instead of 16, and owning a couple of them, I can tell you that a good processor, a good amp, and some good speakers make it easy to hear the difference. I paid 2 dollars for Joni Mitchell's "Blue" album on HDCD at a garage sale, and it's much more open and dynamic than my other CD. My wife can hear a difference, which means there is a difference. I think what happens is that they compress what was once a dynamic master into more radio-friendly "loud" versions.

I got some Supertramp CDs from Japan that are head and shoulders better than what I've found in the states. Those albums were so well produced, it's the crime of the century that their current US releases are so flat and loud and dull. I would rather have a 128kbps mp3 with un-modified dynamics than a 256kbps AAC file with the now-standard levels of "loudness" compression. Yes, you have to turn up the stereo more to reach the same average volume, but when the drums kick, they REALLY kick, like they were supposed to.

I could say more, but I need to go listen to Supertramp, now.

We weren't discussing bit rate, we were talking about sampling rate. Bit rate has real world value, sampling rate definitely does not past limits.

----------

Meh... all the people asking for their placebo (lossless formats,) when AAC is transparent at around 160 kbps. iTunes files are 256 kbps.

If you're happy listening to music on your Dr Dre Beatz headphones, more power to you.
 

doctorossi

macrumors member
Apr 16, 2008
54
0
Ok, so now answer the question without esoteric nonsense.

"Esoteric nonsense"?! I'm not sure how to simplify a concept like 'increased resolution'.

Know how a Blu-ray disc looks more detailed than a DVD? Know how a DVD looks more detailed than a VHS tape?

It's like that, but with your ears instead of your eyes.

Is that good? Or is that still "esoteric nonsense"?
 

rwilliams

macrumors 68040
Apr 8, 2009
3,745
1,010
Raleigh, NC
Agree. I regret ripping all my CD's years ago and tossing them.

I'm glad I tossed the jewel cases (because they took up way too much space), but kept all my CDs in a booklet. I'm not an audiophile by any stretch of the imagination, but something does feel a bit "wrong" about a 256 kbps AAC file being the "master copy" as you stated.
 
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