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Old May 1, 2012, 01:11 PM   #26
Stella
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Originally Posted by cjbryce View Post
They are.
Really? Apple are doing the local area a favour by creating jobs? No, Apple are creating jobs because of a business need, not good will.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:11 PM   #27
taylortm
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Good... more bleeding hearts

Come on, people! Are we really going to have Round Two of the Bleeding Hearts Society telling us all that Apple should be giving away more money "because they can afford to?"

Everybody's welcome to their own personal politics. (Duh.) But guess what. Apple is a FOR-PROFIT company. They are literally on the hook to their shareholders to maximize their revenues and profits. Every business (and individual, for that matter) in this fine country of ours makes decisions that will minimize taxes and maximize money coming in.

They are not evil for seeking the best deal they can get. It's their job.

Should the New York Yankees (of past) given away games because they had more wins than they needed?

Should the Top 100 Richest folks just stop trying and give it away because they have more than they need?

Why should Apple? Because they're a faceless corporate entity and there's just absolutely zero point to further growth/accumulation? They're just like this "machine" that doesn't need the money. Right?

Think again. I'm a "part owner" of Apple. My family and I appreciate their continued attention to growth and accumulation. Apple = shareholders = "regular people." Granted, lots of Apple shareholders are big greedy corporate behemoths. But, keep pulling that thread and guess what. Those big behemoths usually equal shareholders = "regular people" too.

Sorry for the news flash: it's how this country runs.

People, companies, and governments are free to exercise their politics where they have the influence. Apple wants to minimize taxes paid. Texas wants to "do whatever is on their political agenda" and maximize tax revenues collected. Texas was free to wheel and deal with Apple, trading back and forth among these related desires until they closed the deal. If the fine people at Apple do something "wrong," they'll see the backlash from shareholders and customers. If the fine people in Texas did something wrong (failed to meet their constituents' political demands), they'll feel it at the polls.

Goals --> tactics --> decisions --> consequence.

Both sides get to play by these simple rules. Both sides did. I bet both sides feel they achieved Win-Win.

/rant

Consider reading Rand's "Atlas Shrugged." It's really long, so maybe just the Cliff's Notes?
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:12 PM   #28
Konrad9
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Originally Posted by Kyrra View Post
First level tech support requires about the same level of training.
Though I am in neither of those jobs, and I make more, and I graduated from college, I find that attitude absolutely insulting.

Some of those people are lazy and deserve to paid as such, but a lot of those people are doing their damnedest and working their asses off to provide for themselves and their family.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:15 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by taylortm View Post
Come on, people! Are we really going to have Round Two of the Bleeding Hearts Society telling us all that Apple should be giving away more money "because they can afford to?"

Everybody's welcome to their own personal politics. (Duh.) But guess what. Apple is a FOR-PROFIT company. They are literally on the hook to their shareholders to maximize their revenues and profits. Every business (and individual, for that matter) in this fine country of ours makes decisions that will minimize taxes and maximize money coming in.

They are not evil for seeking the best deal they can get. It's their job.

Should the New York Yankees (of past) given away games because they had more wins than they needed?

Should the Top 100 Richest folks just stop trying and give it away because they have more than they need?

Why should Apple? Because they're a faceless corporate entity and there's just absolutely zero point to further growth/accumulation? They're just like this "machine" that doesn't need the money. Right?

Think again. I'm a "part owner" of Apple. My family and I appreciate their continued attention to growth and accumulation. Apple = shareholders = "regular people." Granted, lots of Apple shareholders are big greedy corporate behemoths. But, keep pulling that thread and guess what. Those big behemoths usually equal shareholders = "regular people" too.

Sorry for the news flash: it's how this country runs.

People, companies, and governments are free to exercise their politics where they have the influence. Apple wants to minimize taxes paid. Texas wants to "do whatever is on their political agenda" and maximize tax revenues collected. Texas was free to wheel and deal with Apple, trading back and forth among these related desires until they closed the deal. If the fine people at Apple do something "wrong," they'll see the backlash from shareholders and customers. If the fine people in Texas did something wrong (failed to meet their constituents' political demands), they'll feel it at the polls.

Goals --> tactics --> decisions --> consequence.

Both sides get to play by these simple rules. Both sides did. I bet both sides feel they achieved Win-Win.

/rant

Consider reading Rand's "Atlas Shrugged." It's really long, so maybe just the Cliff's Notes?
Nobody is arguing that Apple should pay more than others. People are saying that they should pay what they are supposed to pay. And here is my friendly advise to AAPL shareholder - get out. The game is over.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:15 PM   #30
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Oh good, I am soooo glad, I was very worried what with the fiddling of taxes Apple participates in around the globe by using tax loopholes it pay's government lobbyists $$$$ to keep open, it wouldn't be able to afford a new building.

I would just love to know what tax breaks it is demanding, sorry, asking for to build it's new giant Polo complex in Cupertino? If it got 35 mil for a small expansion, it must be trying to screw the state over for 300 million for the new Cupertino doughnut?

Sorry for the rant, but when third world countries are starving, world is still in recession, I have VERY little sympathy for the worlds richest company getting a friggin multi million dollar tax break to build a building it will make regardless!
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:16 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
So, Apple continues screwing the taxpayers/counties/states etc. Good for Apple. Bad for everyone else. I guess 9.8% tax rate was too high for Apple.

Hey buddy, how you doing? I was really worried about you when you didn't return to the Apple earnings thread. You remember that thread?


Quote:
Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post

BTW, could you provide a link to the information that proves that proves NYT wrong?
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...norance-again/
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:17 PM   #32
apolloa
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Originally Posted by taylortm View Post
Come on, people! Are we really going to have Round Two of the Bleeding Hearts Society telling us all that Apple should be giving away more money "because they can afford to?"
I think you are confusing charity with tax evasion?
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:20 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
The statistics ls always meaningless for those who can't understand it. NYT reported Apple tax numbers as percentage of their income (profits) not revenue. Exact quote: "As it stands, the company paid cash taxes of $3.3 billion around the world on its reported profits of $34.2 billion last year, a tax rate of 9.8 percent." As percentage of their revenue the number would be close to 0%.
And yet...
http://investing.money.msn.com/inves...ts?symbol=AAPL

and

http://files.shareholder.com/downloa..._As_Filed_.pdf
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:20 PM   #34
taylortm
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Originally Posted by apolloa View Post
I think you are confusing charity with tax evasion?
Hmmmm... nope. Pretty sure it's you (and others here, to be fair) that are grossly confusing business with charity.

It it were tax evasion, I'd be all in favor of the Feds coming in and busting 'em for it. (Right after I ditched my long position, of course! /joking).
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:23 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
Yes that article to which Apple responded by claiming that they created more than 500K jobs in USA and not even trying to deny any of the article claims. The entity that needs those jobs the most is Apple themselves. Every single employer in USA does exactly that - brings jobs. But not all of them get the incentives. And Apple is the last company in USA that needs the incentives.

BTW, could you provide a link to the information that proves that proves NYT wrong?

----------



It is. What is unreasonable is to give Apple incentives to create those jobs in a situation when Apple is the one who needs those jobs the most.
here's the response from forbes to the NYT article:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...norance-again/

and here is the original article discrediting where the NYT got there information:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...ling-nonsense/
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:30 PM   #36
ZMacintosh
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Originally Posted by Konrad9 View Post
Though I am in neither of those jobs, and I make more, and I graduated from college, I find that attitude absolutely insulting.

Some of those people are lazy and deserve to paid as such, but a lot of those people are doing their damnedest and working their asses off to provide for themselves and their family.
I agree, I graduated from college pursuing a career in my field/passion and its insulting when you know you can deliver result they want and get paid dirt because its just easier to keep everyone on a set payscale.

I worked in retail tech stores and business corporate environments, and not saying either one is easy..BUT the work demand, the constant metrics performances of retail tech or phone support requires for the pay you get is absolutely asinine. At my Business Tech position I got paid nearly 3x tthat and had less to deal with in that regard, it was a bit more controlled and able to work relatively stress free though it was challenging its something that I cant stand with tech companies
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:31 PM   #37
lilo777
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Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
Hey buddy, how you doing? I was really worried about you when you didn't return to the Apple earnings thread. You remember that thread?
What about it. I did my job there. I warned people. Those who listened were lucky. Last time I checked AAPL was at $585 today. Just like I said it would. Speculators tried to pump it up but failed. I hope you sold your shares upon my advice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rdowns View Post
Just quoting a comment from the replies to this BS: "What author doesn’t say is that removing one quarterly payment and adding in the other will make little if any difference to the 9.8% tax rate paid."

So, it's not 9.8% but, say, 12%. Obviously mister Forbes is very concerned that people may demand that he and those like him paid more in taxes.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:32 PM   #38
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The wage guarantees are more valuable than the tax incentives to the state, county, and city. This was simple math. The fact Apple is willing to say yes to that strong-arm offer means they intend generally to compensate labor as a corporate policy. Win-win.

I suspect most/all of the folks on the other end of that negotiation are union members.

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Old May 1, 2012, 01:33 PM   #39
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Really? Apple are doing the local area a favour by creating jobs? No, Apple are creating jobs because of a business need, not good will.
Sure, Apple is creating jobs out of a business need. But they can create those jobs anywhere they want. They don't HAVE to create them in Texas. Many other states would be happy to have the jobs within their borders. If Texas didn't give them what they wanted, they'd go somewhere else. Whether or not you like it, this is the way businesses run. It's not Apple's fault; their job as a corporation is to earn money. That involves doing everything they legally can to spend less and earn more. Every other big corporation does it, too. Blame it on the laws on this country, not on the companies that are following them.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:40 PM   #40
lilo777
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Originally Posted by CRIIM44 View Post
here's the response from forbes to the NYT article:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...norance-again/

and here is the original article discrediting where the NYT got there information:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworst...ling-nonsense/
And as I quoted in the other post, here is a simple reply that debunks this Forbes lie: "What author doesn’t say is that removing one quarterly payment and adding in the other will make little if any difference to the 9.8% tax rate paid."

If Apple paid more than 9.8% they would not fail to mention this in their reply to NYT article. They did not. They simply said they paid a lot in taxes - no numbers provided. I read it as they are saying that they have to pay even less.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweetbrat View Post
Sure, Apple is creating jobs out of a business need. But they can create those jobs anywhere they want. They don't HAVE to create them in Texas. Many other states would be happy to have the jobs within their borders. If Texas didn't give them what they wanted, they'd go somewhere else. Whether or not you like it, this is the way businesses run. It's not Apple's fault; their job as a corporation is to earn money. That involves doing everything they legally can to spend less and earn more. Every other big corporation does it, too. Blame it on the laws on this country, not on the companies that are following them.
And what's the end game? Zero taxes? And yes, the laws should be fixed. States must delegate more powers to Federal government. Otherwise they will continue to get screwed. Companies will play a simple divide and conquer game resulting in rich getting richer and poor (or as they say "middle class") getting poorer.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:42 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Mattie Num Nums View Post
11 bucks an hour. People at In n Out flipping burgers start at 10.
In n Out overpays I'm sure for the "job" being done. Heck this morning I went to a local fast food place for breakfast. It was 9:30 am and after the morning breakfast rush. I went through their drive thru and placed order for biscuit and coffee with cream and sugar.

Pull up to window, get order, asked cream and sugar in there? NOPE! I ask two creams, six sugars please... Got back to enjoy meal and noticed 2 creams and 3 SUGARS. Yep! $10 bucks to reward incompetency! And it wasn't your typical irresponsible teenaged teeny-bopper. Nope! Thanks to the great economic recovery that's been going on since Biden touted the Summer of Recover in 2010, this was a lady in her forties... someone you think would have a smidgen of intelligence. However, that was asking for too much.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:42 PM   #42
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$11 an hour? I was making more when I was 19. That is pathetic.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:45 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
States must delegate more powers to Federal government.
Now that's the craziest thing I've read on this thread. (So far...)
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:46 PM   #44
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Obviously mister Forbes is very concerned that people may demand that he and those like him paid more in taxes.
You are simply wrong. The Forbes flat tax plan and even the Ryan budget already passed in the house, reduces marginal rates but substantially reduces deductions. That increases the net cash payments of the very richest (top 20% not merely top 1%), and provides more net revenue to the government which is mandated to be applied to deficits and debt, not new spending.

The political debate is (D) higher taxes on the rich AND more debt and deficits, vs. (R) higher taxes on the rich with lower marginal rates to spur growth AND less debt and deficits.

The advantage to less debt and deficits is less money flowing to government bonds and more flowing to commercial bonds which is the exact source of employment and growth and wage increases. It really is that simple!

It is this exact cause that we are seeing lower wages, employment, and growth. The government sucking all the cash out of the bond market. A really big and hurtful sucking sound to real people. Side effect? Currency debasement and zero or less rate of return on savings. High gas and grocery prices.

This is real stuff.

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Old May 1, 2012, 01:47 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by lilo777 View Post
Just quoting a comment from the replies to this BS: "What author doesn’t say is that removing one quarterly payment and adding in the other will make little if any difference to the 9.8% tax rate paid."

So, it's not 9.8% but, say, 12%. Obviously mister Forbes is very concerned that people may demand that he and those like him paid more in taxes.
As shown in the links that I provided, Apple's tax rate was 24.2% from FY2011. This information isn't hard to find.

http://investing.money.msn.com/inves...ts?symbol=AAPL
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:49 PM   #46
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$11 an hour? I was making more when I was 19. That is pathetic.
It's great to know that you all make a nice comfortable living. In case you haven't noticed, not everyone is in the same boat. When people have been out of work for one or two years, those $11 per hour jobs don't look quite so pathetic. Be realistic...there's a lot of people in this country that are unemployed.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:50 PM   #47
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Apple shouldn't require tax incentives.. they have enough money without leaching off tax payers.
.
Ok. This is just too much to take. I can't believe this. Apple is leaching off tax payers? Boy have you drank the koolaide. Its the GOVERNMENT that leaches off of the tax payers. Moreover, the government leaches off of Apple. Where do you think government gets its money, honey?

How do people get this twisted around in their heads? The media's influence is astonishing. Propaganda is alive and well in the United States.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:51 PM   #48
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Apple shouldn't require tax incentives.. they have enough money without leaching off tax payers.

BTW - it isn't being anti apple, its being realistic.. they have more money than god at the moment. They don't need incentives, just use their own hoard of money.

Average pay of $35,000? Low paying jobs.. sure it'll help the local economy. But ultimately, its like Apple ( or any other company ) have the attitude that they are doing the local area a favour by creating new jobs.
Who decides when a person or company has "enough money"?

Would you like it if you had a company and somebody told you, you have enough money, which implies to pay extra or more for the same things others get?

Why not give away all products for free while we are at it?
Let's not stop there. They should take care of welfare and the deficit and then some.

After all they have enough money. Really thought through.

If you have any beef with anybody have it with the tax system or the politicians who stand in line to give away tax breaks to anybody, hoping it will all work out.

Nobody said a peep when Apple wasn't doing well, so now it's full blast at any opportunity at Apple?
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:54 PM   #49
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As shown in the links that I provided, Apple's tax rate was 24.2% from FY2011. This information isn't hard to find.

http://investing.money.msn.com/inves...ts?symbol=AAPL
Apparently you totally misunderstood what Apple is actually doing. 24% might be the tax rate for Apple Corporation. The problem is that most of Apple profits legally go to its subsidiaries not the Apple Inc registered in California. Yes, they paid 24% on 10% of their profits and 5% on the rest of them. Where could I get such a sweet deal?

I am not surprised about so much confusion. Life proves again and again that most Apple fans are not that bright. Otherwise they would not buy overpriced under-performing Apple products in a first place.
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Old May 1, 2012, 01:57 PM   #50
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Apparently you totally misunderstood what Apple is actually doing. 24% might be the tax rate for Apple Corporation. The problem is that most of Apple profits legally go to its subsidiaries not the Apple Inc registered in California. Yes, they paid 24% on 10% of their profits and 5% on the rest of them. Where could I get such a sweet deal?

I am not surprised about so much confusion. Life proves again and again that most Apple fans are not that bright. Otherwise they would not buy overpriced under-performing Apple products in a first place.
I know you've been asked this before, but I haven't seen a response so I'll ask again. Why are you here? You have so much contempt for Apple AND for anyone that disagrees with you. Insulting people because they disagree with you, whether over politics or their choice of car, clothing, computer, etc. is juvenile. Discussion is one thing. Blatant, blanket insults to an entire group of people is another, and shows your biased, narrow-minded way of thinking.
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