Nano-SIM Card Standard to be Decided This Month

No SIM at all would be the best option, eSim would be by far the best option for those who travel a lot.
I find it a pain in the behind to change Sims, and since they are so small easy to loose.

Instead of buying a new sim you just buy a number, register by sms and your done, as soon as you get into another already registered area/country it automatically registers, no hassle of changing SIM's.

mrsir2009 said:

Same, I hate holding my friend's iPod Touch, even with the case on. By the way, haven't seen ya in a while i5

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I was alive,Just posting in the WW games just died today

omenatarhuri said:

This.

On the subject tho, could someone please explain what the big deal is with this SIM standards? Is one of them technically superior to the other, they can't be that different from a size aspect that it would matter, SIM's are already like 0,5mm thin or something like that.

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ETSI asked for designs for their new 4FF (aka - nano SIM). Apple responded with one design, Nokia, RIM and Motorola responded with a different design.

Apple's design requires a drawer to hold the SIM. 1p piece of plastic (with huge tooling costs) is fine on a £400 handset with £100 profit on each sale which sells in their millions between design changes, but on a £30 handset with £5 profit it becomes more of an issue. Remember Apple used expensive Liquid Metal just to make a SIM eject tool on the 3GS (when a 0.01p pin could have done). Nokia's design claims to allow greater options where the SIM is sited, how it's inserted, and therefore a greater range in form-factors. Once the tray is taken into account, Nokia claims Apple's SIM doesn't offer a significant reduction in size (smaller, but not by enough to justify it).

Apple's design is/was the same width and the micro SIM was wide - meaning users could insert the SIM the wrong way around into existing handsets with the risk of jamming the card in and damaging the phone.

Nokia claim that their SIM would be easier for users to handle, allow for more innovative device designs and provide something very different to just a SIM a little smaller than the current micro SIM.

And finally, ETSI had pre-agreed a number of requirements for the 4FF - i.e. they said "Please submit your designs for our new nano-SIM, it has to do X, Y and Z". Nokia/RIM/Motorola's claims that Apple's design does not meet all the requirements. It's like a customer (ETSI) asking a software developer (Apple) for some software to do some specific things, and the developer coming back and saying "You didn't really want that - have this instead."

Apple want their design as it suits them and their market (high margin, high priced phones). Nokia/RIM/Motorola want their design as it allows cheaper devices, and benefits all manufacturers. ETSI sets standards for the industry as a whole - to allow interoperability and good competition - not just for single manufacturers.

justperry said:

No SIM at all would be the best option, eSim would be by far the best option for those who travel a lot.
I find it a pain in the behind to change Sims, and since they are so small easy to loose.

Instead of buying a new sim you just buy a number, register by sms and your done, as soon as you get into another already registered area/country it automatically registers, no hassle of changing SIM's.

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Isn't that what CDMA was meant to do? In the end it just meant users being stuck with a single operator and no way of migrating their handset.

Register by SMS? How do you do that if you don't have service? That's like the joke about emailing IT support saying your email isn't working.

Due to cryptography on SIMs etc, the 'owner' of the keys has to authorise loading things onto the SIM. Normally, the owner of the SIM is the network - it's their money on the line (talk time, network service etc). In the case of the iPhone the 'owner' of the keys WOULD be Apple. It would be Apple who would allow things onto the eSIM. And if they release iPhone 6 in the UK exclusively on a new mobile operator called Apple Mobile? Want to move your handset to another network? You think it'll be easy?

At present all you need to do to get your handset to take any SIM is to get it network unlocked. One time operation and then you're free to put whatever network SIM from anywhere in the world in.

With an eSIM the concept of permanent network unlocking is unlikely - as the eSIM owner (i.e. Apple) would have to load everything onto the SIM each time you wanted to add a new network. This is why the networks hated the idea of eSIMs - as they lose the relationship with the customer. Apple loves the idea as they hate the operators and want to own the customer.

Wow, I can't believe people on here are still debating over what the next iPhone will be called. It is obvious it is going to be the new iPhone. They don't do numbering systems for laptops, don't do numbering systems for desktops, don't do numbering systems for iPods, and they just got out of doing numbering systems for iPads to make everything more consistent. Guess what's next. I'd bed money on that. Everybody else will end up calling it sixth gen or iPhone (2012) like they are doing with the new iPad, which people are calling third gen or iPad (2012).

Back on topic, I think this could mean two redesigns back to back. Next gen will of course be a new design. But with a new SIM standard, the 7th gen might also be a new design. Just an idea, not sure Apple would do two new designs back to back. That's not really something they are known for. In fact, I can't remember them ever doing two new designs back to back with any of their products in the past 5+ years. And no, the new iPad's design does not at all count.

Swampie said:

Register by SMS? How do you do that if you don't have service? That's like the joke about emailing IT support saying your email isn't working.

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What a nonsense, yes you can send sms to a certain provider's number to register, same as you can use ANY mobile phone to dail 911.
Edit : With Sms I mean a *....*.......# code to the sms centre.

Example, I buy a new sim and most of the time I then send a sms to a certain number to register it, since the eSIM will be inside it would be the same.
Sometimes you need to call a certain number and it does not matter if it's a SIM or eSIM.
I've been in many countries and registered all of them (GSM) with either sms or Call.

And yes, it's the providers which blocked it, and for reasons which are stupid, you are on a contract, they still get their monthly payments even if you put in a different SIM.

Sorry to say but I find SIM's stupid and Contracts criminal.IMHO

justperry said:

What a nonsense, yes you can send sms to a certain provider's number to register, same as you can use ANY mobile phone to dail 911.

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In the UK, if you don't have a registered SIM, you can't dial 112/999.

Why the hate on sim cards? It's way better than CDMA and other technologies. You have full control, cellphones can be unlocked instead of trashed, I'm currently using an unlocked phone (I had laying around from another operator) because my main phone crapped out. Else I would have had to buy a new phone.
And I am contract free (kinda legally is still a contract but I'm not stuck), if I want to dump my cellphone service tomorrow I'm free to do so.

Swampie said:

With an eSIM the concept of permanent network unlocking is unlikely - as the eSIM owner (i.e. Apple) would have to load everything onto the SIM each time you wanted to add a new network. This is why the networks hated the idea of eSIMs - as they lose the relationship with the customer. Apple loves the idea as they hate the operators and want to own the customer.

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The same cryptographic processor is used for NFC and the eSIM is meant to hold a number of active profiles at the same time. There are many technical ways the standard could enforce the openness. The standard could mandate a hardwire key that is only used for loading encryption keys of other services that can only be supplemented by the device makers not deleted. So could present your phone to the service providers NFC interface to load a profile for new phone account or train pass or credit card.

If Apples motives are, as you say, to keep the customers as their own then surely it in their interest to make it as easy to switch eSIM profiles and treat phone companies as providers of data pipe?

MattInOz said:

The same cryptographic processor is used for NFC and the eSIM is meant to hold a number of active profiles at the same time. There are many technical ways the standard could enforce the openness. The standard could mandate a hardwire key that is only used for loading encryption keys of other services that can only be supplemented by the device makers not deleted. So could present your phone to the service providers NFC interface to load a profile for new phone account or train pass or credit card.

If Apples motives are, as you say, to keep the customers as their own then surely it in their interest to make it as easy to switch eSIM profiles and treat phone companies as providers of data pipe?

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When NFC first came out, they used embedded Secure Elements (SE) where a handset manufacturer controlled the keys. This didn't work well, so single wire protocol NFC handsets came about (where the SIM is the secure element (SE) for NFC) and the network operators controlled the keys and what NFC applets could be loaded onto the SE/SIM. Almost all NFC devices I've seen now are SWP NFC handsets. The industry for NFC is moving away from the eSIM style embedded NFC SE to SE on the SIM with SWP handsets.

From Apple's point of view, they don't want to make it easy for users to switch - just easy to provision new iPhone devices. If people have to get a new handset to swap providers - then they get another sale.

Uhh, so they trimmed even more of the remaining plastic away - why didn't they just do this to start with when they pushed for Micro-SIMs?

I've just got an HTC One X, which uses one.... But how much smaller is this couple of mm (if it's even that much) going to allow Apple to make phones?

Seems more like a way to keep the technophobes who don't know how easy it is to swap to a smaller SIM/adapt to a larger SIM from straying to other brands once they buy the 'latest and greatest' iPhone and everybody else is still using Micro-SIMs 'cause they don't see the point confusing everyone again...?

Something isn't adding up?

Rumor of even smaller sim card, rumor about smaller dock connector. However we are hearing about larger screens?

Why would we need a smaller sim AND smaller dock connector if the form factor is staying the same or getting larger?

My guess we are going to see a new iPhone model that is smaller(nano) then what we have now. Not to say we won't see a model with a bigger screen as well.

lostngone said:

Rumor of even smaller sim card, rumor about smaller dock connector. However we are hearing about larger screens?

Why would we need a smaller sim AND smaller dock connector if the form factor is staying the same or getting larger?

My guess we are going to see a new iPhone model that is smaller(nano) then what we have now. Not to say we won't see a model with a bigger screen as well.

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Smaller SIM, Dock Connector = more space for other things, like a larger screen, bigger battery.

Swampie said:

And finally, ETSI had pre-agreed a number of requirements for the 4FF - i.e. they said "Please submit your designs for our new nano-SIM, it has to do X, Y and Z". Nokia/RIM/Motorola's claims that Apple's design does not meet all the requirements. It's like a customer (ETSI) asking a software developer (Apple) for some software to do some specific things, and the developer coming back and saying "You didn't really want that - have this instead."

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Very informative thank you, i was confident this was more than just a pissing contest between the manufacturers for the intellectual property rights to the final sim design, now the amount of time this has taken makes a little more sense

Swampie said:

ETSI asked for designs for their new 4FF (aka - nano SIM). Apple responded with one design, Nokia, RIM and Motorola responded with a different design.

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A design for Etsi? Was it knitted from organic hemp and hand painted with a cute cat picture and an inspirational saying on it?

justperry said:

What a nonsense, yes you can send sms to a certain provider's number to register, same as you can use ANY mobile phone to dail 911.

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Such a "simple" mechanism would pose too many problems.

Ooops, I just sent a text message and paid a $1000 ETF.

Swampie said:

ETSI asked for designs for their new 4FF (aka - nano SIM). Apple responded with one design, Nokia, RIM and Motorola responded with a different design.
...

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Thanks for taking the time to write such a solid reply. Seems like you have your favourite decided.

It's hard to believe it would be so black and white however, if Apple's design so awful, why is it winning the vote (as we've heard)?

omenatarhuri said:

It's hard to believe it would be so black and white however, if Apple's design so awful, why is it winning the vote (as we've heard)?

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I don't think we've heard that at all.

Given how few manufacturers use the Micro SIM (i.e. nobody but Apple until very recently), I'd imagine that there will be apathy towards anything Apple proposes.

The tray may also be the clincher - it's an added cost and not part of the design of most devices.

omenatarhuri said:

Thanks for taking the time to write such a solid reply. Seems like you have your favourite decided.

It's hard to believe it would be so black and white however, if Apple's design so awful, why is it winning the vote (as we've heard)?

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Where have you heard that Apple's design is winning the vote? I'd only heard that the vote was still going - I hadn't heard any interim results.

H2SO4 said:

Remember, they took the PowerPC thing all the way up to G5.

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That wasn't Apple's doing at all.

Apple just doesn't use numbers, except for the iPhone and iPad. And now it's just the iPhone. I've been saying since before the 4S showed up, expect it to be called plain "iPhone" at one point.

electronics1201 said:

Im sorta getting sick of this numbering thing anyway

its not like they say "iMac 4" or "macbook pro 5s"...

the new iPhone sounds......simple.

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Too bad they don't sell multiple generations of MacBooks/iMacs at the same time. Same thing with the original iPods. They didn't have to number them because they didn't sell 3 generations of iPods at the same time.

FSMBP said:

Too bad they don't sell multiple generations of MacBooks/iMacs at the same time. Same thing with the original iPods. They didn't have to number them because they didn't sell 3 generations of iPods at the same time.

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Never caused any problems for the refurb store (they just list the generation).

Swampie said:

Where have you heard that Apple's design is winning the vote? I'd only heard that the vote was still going - I hadn't heard any interim results.

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Maybe going Apple's way: http://www.theverge.com/2012/5/8/3007535/nano-sim-4ff-apple-modified-vote-mid-may
This is saying the same thing (referring first link): http://www.mikropc.net/kaikki_uutis...mkiistassa/a806747?s=r&wtm=mikropc/-09052012&
And here (once again referring the first link): http://www.tietoviikko.fi/kaikki_uu...nistui/a806630?s=r&wtm=tietoviikko/-09052012&

So I suppose only Verge is saying that if it is.

AppleGuesser said:

I think thinner would be ok, but the iPhone for me would have to be much larger, closer to 4 inches really. But more RAM and a better processor are always welcomed upgrades

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As Robin Quivers always says:

4 inches is fine

macbook pro i5 said:

This should pave way to make the new iPhone thinner,But I don't want it thinner I want a better processor and more RAM.


Personally if they make the new iPhone thinner it will be to uncomfortable to hold!

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Personally, I'd prefer it thinner; but personal tastes aside, less space taken up by a SIM card means more space for other things, including battery.