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Alexlfm

macrumors newbie
Nov 6, 2011
24
15
Midwest, US
Don't flame. I don't really understand the purpose of these docking stations... (and thunderbold in general really) simply to add more USB and other ports? What needs to be connected? Professional peripherals and accessories? And why is thunderbolt so necessary? I know it transfers data much faster, but unless you are transfering GB of data what's the point? What difference does a thunderbolt display even make? It's not going to display the monitor any faster or anything...

Don't just say "obviously this product isn't for you". I would actually like to learn the purpose.

What you are not realizing is that the purpose of thunderbolt is not data transfer or even video (in fact Thunderbolt only carries DisplayPort and doesn't actually implement it's own video standard). For most people USB 2.0 transfer speeds are fine and nothing more is needed. Transfer is usually constrained more by the slow flash memory speed and not the protocol. USB 3 and Thunderbolt however are not meant to do the same thing, even if sometimes they are marketed as such. Thunderbolt is made to be an expansion, not accessory, interface designed around PCI express. It's purpose is to enable, hardware devices like high end graphic cards, raid devices etc. to be connected to a machine seamlessly. The idea is so that you could have a relatively low powered laptop, take it on the go, but be able to dock it or just connect it to very powerful hardware when you have a need to. Or you could do a hardware upgrade without having to open a computer up, which could also enable machines to be made smaller (Plus, lets face it most people find opening their computer up to be "scary"). Thunderbolt could also be used to connect a computer to a very fast mesh computer processing network enabling one to tap into huge amounts of power. Thunderbolt devices require more processing power and chips on the device end compared to USB as all devices are PCI-E devices. This makes it faster as processing is offloaded from the computers processor (unlike USB) and instead the devices are smarter. This means thunderbolt devices cost more, but at the same time have much more capability. USB really is a fancy version of a serial port and even with USB 3 isn't really meant to add hardware to the computer apart from modems and some storage. The one Sony thunderbolt docking laptop was a good example of thunderbolts power with a high power external thunderbolt graphics/bluray dock. While USB 3 for the most part just make things faster, thunderbolt could revolutionize computing as its basically PCI-E external. For the average consumer USB 3 is pointless as they don't feel USB 2 is slow so why would they pay more for 3? Professionals will never embrace USB 3 either as it doesn't provide half the expansion/bandwidth of thunderbolt.

While I would agree that this dock is obscenely overpriced for what it is, this is not the full extent of what thunderbolt is capable of. In the docks defense though the dock does have to have its own Network, Sata and USB controllers/chip-sets which do add up. If they could get the price down to $200 it could be a winner, though I doubt that will happen until more thunderbolt laptops are out in the while.
 

nuckinfutz

macrumors 603
Jul 3, 2002
5,539
399
Middle Earth
Apple/Intel really aren't handeling this well. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that together, they just created a complete flop. It's an excellent technology that SHOULD be aimed at consumers (not just the pro market) to get it widely adopted.

Disagree. What does the average consumer need with a 10Gbps connection? Most still think SSD are too expensive and it's the only storage that can even come close to hitting the TB limits
 

scottsjack

macrumors 68000
Aug 25, 2010
1,906
311
Arizona
This dock really looks like a useful one. If a user just had to have a MBA Belkin's dock would be really handy. Would I buy one?

My answer is the same as before. Why not spend a small portion of the dock price and get a real, fully functional laptop with all of the connectivity built it, like it should be? The idea of buying a light-weight computer like a MBA or iPad and then having to carry around a bunch of junk (accessories) in a bag is just stupid.
 

bungiefan89

macrumors 6502a
Apr 5, 2011
565
76
Why not get a USB 3 hub directly?
Uh... I dunno. :p
Now that I think about it, the whole idea is pretty pointless, unless you have JUST a 2011 MBA... but in that case, it begs the question as to why you wouldn't just get a full-sized computer instead of "saving" some money by just buying the ports.
 

Digital Skunk

macrumors G3
Dec 23, 2006
8,097
923
In my imagination
How long will TB be considered "new"?:rolleyes:

Considering that FireWire is almost 20 years old and still relevant I'd say give TBolt another 3 years before it becomes mainstream.

...and Apple Stores probably shift a hundred AppleTVs for every Thunderbolt cable they sell.

One of these is a bog-standard ARM system-on-a-chip and some commodity Flash RAM, not a lot different from other media players on the market.

The other has a custom chip, only used in Thunderbolt cables, inside each connector that somehow crams two bidirectional 10Gb/s channels down a bit of twisted wire.

The real con is that some people will buy their AppleTV and then spend $50 on a HDMI cable, when a totally equivalent cable (consisting of a bit of wire with passive connectors on each end) costs $5 from Amazon.

It's pretty much the norm around here. $2500 for a 15" laptop, $349 for the warranty, $145 a month for the cell phone plan (for one person), and go stark raving mad at a $400 dock that gives you four connection options via one cable.

Oh, forgot to mention, complain about the price, then suggest getting something 2.5x more expensive as an alternative. :confused:

Time must be tough if people are lashing out at companies based on pricing.

They aren't tough, people are just getting a bit carried away. I'd spit out that, "Don't like it don't buy it," suggestion at this point. Personally, I'd grab it if I was an Air owner that didn't want a glossy display attached to my hub/dock.

Or even an iMac owner looking for more expansion without taking up more desk space with a 27" monitor.
 

MacinDoc

macrumors 68020
Mar 22, 2004
2,268
11
The Great White North
A wireless router that is connected to your computer via (TB) wire? What is the point of that?

Or do you want to use the TC only as a NAS that doubles as dock? For the NAS part, TB would not really add much over GbitEthernet since the TC is only a single HDD unit.
Yes, I was thinking NAS and dock combined in the same physical package. The added value would be in the ability to attach additional hardware.

Or TC could be beefed up with additional drives in a RAID configuration, although as its primary function is as a backup, I'm not sure what the point would be of that. Maybe an external RAID box for professionals, but again, that would limit the market, and would require a Mac Pro upgrade.
 

mrr

macrumors 6502a
Apr 19, 2008
912
1,642
Inside a Thunderbolt Display you will find:
  • Pericom PI7C9X440SL PCIe-to-USB 2.0 host controller
  • L129NB11 EFL Thunderbolt port controller
  • Analog Devices ADAV4601 audio processor
  • NXP LPC2144 USB 2.0 microcontroller
  • Delta LFE9249 10/100/1000 Base-T LAN filter
  • SMSC USB2517-JZX USB 2.0 hub controller
  • LSI L-FW643E-2 Open Host Controller Interface (Firewire Controller)
  • Broadcom BCM57761 Gigabit ethernet controller

Big names for a lot of parts that don't cost a lot of money! Add them up.
 

Wicked1

macrumors 68040
Apr 13, 2009
3,283
14
New Jersey
good luck selling them for $399, they were not selling from what I read even at $299

I bet the stupid thing only costs like $99 to make and most likely assembled in China somewhere.
 

blackhand1001

macrumors 68030
Jan 6, 2009
2,599
33
This isn't just a "hub". It's not even really a dock.

It's $400 because it has it's own logic controllers. It's basically a computer. Firewire, eSATA, Ethernet, audio, etc.. They aren't all just passthroughs to onboard components.

Thunderbolt extends the PCI bus. Imagine buying a PCI-e ethernet card, firewire card, eSATA controller, sound card, etc.. That's what this device actually is.

Thunderbolt isn't like USB. It's not a plug-n-play kind of thing. It gives you low-level access to the system. It essentially allows you to extend your motherboard.

The board inside the the Thunderbolt display has multiple controllers. PCIe, USB, ethernet and a audio processor.

Inside a Thunderbolt Display you will find:
  • Pericom PI7C9X440SL PCIe-to-USB 2.0 host controller
  • L129NB11 EFL Thunderbolt port controller
  • Analog Devices ADAV4601 audio processor
  • NXP LPC2144 USB 2.0 microcontroller
  • Delta LFE9249 10/100/1000 Base-T LAN filter
  • SMSC USB2517-JZX USB 2.0 hub controller
  • LSI L-FW643E-2 Open Host Controller Interface (Firewire Controller)
  • Broadcom BCM57761 Gigabit ethernet controller

You can't get that onto a shelf for $150, not even if you are doing insane volume. Belkin can't do volume. $400 is high, but reasonable.

You can buy a computer with everyone of these ports for 450 dollars which is what this and the cable cost.
 

nuckinfutz

macrumors 603
Jul 3, 2002
5,539
399
Middle Earth
good luck selling them for $399, they were not selling from what I read even at $299

I bet the stupid thing only costs like $99 to make and most likely assembled in China somewhere.

They are not shipping until September and that's always been the ship date so i'm not exactly sure what you read.

You can buy a computer with everyone of these ports for 450 dollars which is what this and the cable cost.

Show me a $450 computer with Thunderbolt and Firewire please
 

ericinboston

macrumors 68020
Jan 13, 2008
2,005
476
The people that need a single cable dock. If modern day docks like the HP dock I linked early are in the $200 range without the flexibility then is it too far a reach to think that there are plenty of people what would spend more for a faster and more flexible dock?

If a customer (consumer or pro) is so anal that they need a 1 cable system, go for it...spend $400 on your mental problem.

Some options:

1)Others entertain the idea of the iMac where the monitor is already built into the computer and a wireless keyboard and mouse comes standard...0 wires already except for the power cord and maybe ethernet.

2)Get a laptop and add a wireless mouse if needed


There has been so much emphasis (especially from Apple) over the past 10 years about cutting cords. Fine. I have numerous desktops and the only cords are the power and ethernet. I use inexpensive wireless mice and keyboards they word extremely well. If I want to offload something to my USB hard drive, gosh, I plug it in for 15 minutes. Is it really that hard or that much of an annoyance that I now want a "dock" to manage something here and there?

The only "docks" I've ever considered were laptop docks back in the late 90s...but again, almost everything is wireless and/or so many inputs/outputs on the computers that docks are only needed for the very niche use case.
 

Wingsnbeer

macrumors newbie
May 31, 2012
21
3
This product is from Belkin. I don't know why you are bringing Apple and Macbooks in this discussion.

Why? Because given the price tag of existing MB Pros I shouldn't have to fork out another $400 for ports that I want. I view the MB Air has the MB for average user. The MB Pro should be portable version of the Mac Pro. I want all the ports, power, storage, etc... that can be shoe horned into that thing.
 

benpatient

macrumors 68000
Nov 4, 2003
1,870
0
This isn't just a "hub". It's not even really a dock.

It's $400 because it has it's own logic controllers. It's basically a computer. Firewire, eSATA, Ethernet, audio, etc.. They aren't all just passthroughs to onboard components.

Thunderbolt extends the PCI bus. Imagine buying a PCI-e ethernet card, firewire card, eSATA controller, sound card, etc.. That's what this device actually is.

Thunderbolt isn't like USB. It's not a plug-n-play kind of thing. It gives you low-level access to the system. It essentially allows you to extend your motherboard.

The board inside the the Thunderbolt display has multiple controllers. PCIe, USB, ethernet and a audio processor.

Inside a Thunderbolt Display you will find:
  • Pericom PI7C9X440SL PCIe-to-USB 2.0 host controller
  • L129NB11 EFL Thunderbolt port controller
  • Analog Devices ADAV4601 audio processor
  • NXP LPC2144 USB 2.0 microcontroller
  • Delta LFE9249 10/100/1000 Base-T LAN filter
  • SMSC USB2517-JZX USB 2.0 hub controller
  • LSI L-FW643E-2 Open Host Controller Interface (Firewire Controller)
  • Broadcom BCM57761 Gigabit ethernet controller

You can't get that onto a shelf for $150, not even if you are doing insane volume. Belkin can't do volume. $400 is high, but reasonable.

Apple isn't doing "insane volume" on the 27 inch thunderbolt displays. They are charging the same SRP as the Dell 27inch high-res display that is essentially the same, only Apple put more stuff in it, and Dell made theirs anti-glare instead of glassy.

That, combined with Apple's general penchant for making a LOT of money on every product they sell, lets me know that there isn't a lot of actual costs in the interface controllers, etc in the 27" Apple display. Take away the FW800 controller, the thunderbolt ports, the ethernet, and the speakers, sub in a couple additional video-only ports (HDMI and DVI, maybe component, I can't remember at the moment), and you get the same SRP as a Dell? Dell may have their perpetually on sale for 899, but there is no way all of those added Apple "dock" components are costing them 100 bucks.

You can get all of those ports and controllers, plus a COMPUTER with storage and RAM and a processor and a power brick, in the form of a mac mini, for 100 bucks more than this belkin hub. Who in their right mind?
 

cult hero

macrumors 65816
Jun 6, 2005
1,181
1,028
Who is going to buy this?

Seriously? I guess people with more money than brains. I actually really want one of these but... BUT... not for $450. That's just absurd.

I can't imagine prices are going to stay this high. I could be wrong, of course, but this is just nonsensically expensive. The CEO of my company is about the only person I can see getting something like this... except he's already sporting a pair of Thunderbolt displays.
 

nuckinfutz

macrumors 603
Jul 3, 2002
5,539
399
Middle Earth
You can get all of those ports and controllers, plus a COMPUTER with storage and RAM and a processor and a power brick, in the form of a mac mini, for 100 bucks more than this belkin hub. Who in their right mind?

The Mac mini isn't a dock. I can't hook my MBA up to a mini and suddenly start using its Ethernet or FW800 ports.

The mini doesn't have eSATA nor does it have USB 3.0.

The Belkin product is not aimed at your typical consumer. For some people it's what they need for quickly moving from mobility to desktop workstation. Time is money for some people and $400 isn't gonna be a deal breaker always.
 

TEG

macrumors 604
Jan 21, 2002
6,621
169
Langley, Washington
TB is an input. These are designed to be a form of docking station. Presumably you should have all your desktop stuff plugged into the back already. Walk up with a laptop and plug into the TB port.

The way It looks to me, The dock should be on the desk with everything connected to the back (everything), with a USB port or two on the front for thumb drives. Otherwise, there doesn't seem to be a point to the shiny silver front.

TEG
 

nuckinfutz

macrumors 603
Jul 3, 2002
5,539
399
Middle Earth
Seriously? I guess people with more money than brains. I actually really want one of these but... BUT... not for $450. That's just absurd.

I can't imagine prices are going to stay this high. I could be wrong, of course, but this is just nonsensically expensive. The CEO of my company is about the only person I can see getting something like this... except he's already sporting a pair of Thunderbolt displays.

Do you actually need one?
 

comatory

macrumors 6502a
Apr 10, 2012
738
0
This is clearly not aimed at regular consumer. $400 is a great price for what it offers. it'll drop in time.

most of us here spent $999 and upwards on a computer, most of us spend $$/month on Apps. for $400 you'll have a solution that will last you years and offers great flexibility. you'll be getting pass-through TBs with astounding speed, multimonitor setup, daisy-chained storage boxes and still be able to connect legacy stuff like firewire camcorders/decks and wired ethernet.

i am video editor and this kind of technology is what our industry was dreaming of 12 years ago when laptop editing was starting to take off. now the dream comes true.
dreams come with a price though.
 

nuckinfutz

macrumors 603
Jul 3, 2002
5,539
399
Middle Earth
i am video editor and this kind of technology is what our industry was dreaming of 12 years ago when laptop editing was starting to take off. now the dream comes true.
dreams come with a price though.

I chat with photogs all the time and most of them have a minimum of 3 large drives that they store and backup photos to. Many have to do the good ole drive swap because they don't have enough ports.

They will be all over this. For the price of a cheap lens they will be able to plug in back in the lab and instantly be connected to multiple drives, the display of their choice, audio and even a HDTV if they want.

This is actually fantastic technology and I think the reason why some are upset is because they really want it but feel like it's going to be out of their price range.

The price will come down but until then people that need it will buy it and create the market for TB docks.
 

faroZ06

macrumors 68040
Apr 3, 2009
3,387
1
Nope.

But this isn't as bad as HP's docking station. Those things cost over $1000 back in the late 90s.

----------

How are 99% of people supposed to compete with the rich moving data so fast? :mad:

"Rich moving data"?

Well I stick with FireWire 400. @#$% Thunderbolt :rolleyes:
 

theluggage

macrumors 604
Jul 29, 2011
7,499
7,374
yeah, tell me about how pricey those controllers are. I don't think it's more than $10/unit + license fees...

...then train your electronics engineers up on the TB chipset, design a circuit to hook them all together, test and debug it (probably come up with Mac drivers for USB3), tool up for manufacturing the PCB and the case, get it tested for EM emissions, standards compliance... Finally, manufacture enough to enable all the major suppliers to carry a stock (mainly at your own risk)... Then find out how many will sell.

All this when your potential market consists of some subset of people who have a <18-month old Mac.

If you think you can price a new product by just adding up the list prices of the chips plus a few bucks for the manufacturer's trouble, you really need Business 101.

Electronics manufacture has huge up-front start-up costs and small additional per-unit costs. Spread those costs over a million units and they become tiny. Only make a few thousand units and they look very expensive.

You can sell standard USB gadgets for peanuts because you can sell them by the million.

Yes - they probably are making a hefty mark-up on TB stuff because that's what you have to do for a new product in a small market if you want to recoup your startup costs.

That's one reason why all the Amigas and Acorns and Apricots disappeared, and why Apple eventually switched to Intel: you can't compete with generic PC hardware on price because of the economies of scale in the PC market.
 

BiggAW

macrumors 68030
Jun 19, 2010
2,563
176
Connecticut
Firewire?

When that came out, people harped on it being like USB and the only device that supported it was the iPod that people came into contact with. It helped Adaptec sell a bunch of add-on cards for PeeCee users to get the port for their iPod, but aside from some niche products, and Sony's private named Firewire, for the average user, Firewire was not the 'end all be all' that it was touted as being. Now so many systems come with it but most people don't know what it was for, and don't care, and it's starting to disappear now too. If it was to be the 'USB killer', it failed... I still have a new Adaptec Firewire card here that I never used. It holds down papers on a shelf...

And I'm talking the 'average user'.

At least Firewire was the big thing for DV cameras for a few years. I used it a lot. I can't ever see myself using TB, unless a whole new crop of cheaper, better, more flexible products come out for it, which I doubt, as USB 3.0 will take over.
 
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