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Old Jun 13, 2012, 03:33 PM   #26
dasmb
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As somebody who has a CRATE of needless connectors from Apple purchases over the years (remotes, video adapters, docks, dock connectors, wall-wart adapters, headphones, etc), I'm totally fine with Apple eliminating anything in the box that is likely to have limited appeal -- provided that it can be acquired for a fair price.

The Magsafe adapter is $10 and most people don't have stacks and stacks of 85W adapters sitting around their houses. I can deal with that being an option for the MBPR. The display needs to support any current mac, so it makes sense the adapter would be an include.

I can deal just as easily with the $30 thunderbolt-to-ethernet (I use ethernet about once a year and I'm an application developer), and the $30 thunderbolt-to-firewire connector (I only use firewire for whole-machine backups or restores).

Of course, if I add up every capability I have on my mid-'10 17" that I won't have on the MBPR, I'd have a pretty long list of Thunderbolt devices to buy. Long enough to add a few hundo to the pricetag. This is another of those Apple crossroads: I'm being invited to burn a bridge I rarely cross into what they claim is a new and better land.

Personally, I'm waiting for the Anandtech review before taking their word for it.
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Old Jun 13, 2012, 04:07 PM   #27
theluggage
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxMcCloud View Post
They should include all necessary adapters with the products.
For the new MBP, "necessary adapters" could mean all, some or fewer of:

* Thunderbolt/MiniDisplayPort to VGA
* Thunderbolt/MiniDisplayPort to DVI
* Thunderbolt/MiniDisplayPort to Dual-Link DVI
* Thunderbolt/MiniDisplayPort to full DisplayPort
* Thunderbolt/MiniDisplayPort to HDMI (maybe you want 2 HDMI monitors?)
* TOSLink to 3.5mm optical (digital audio)
* HDMI to DVI (maybe you want both TB ports for discs)
* Thunderbolt to Ethernet
* Thunderbolt to FireWire

...all of which will be essential to someone and completely useless to others.

The last two are pretty non-trivial bits of electronics, and $30 for the TB-to-Ethernet is actually cheaper than a TB-to-TB cable. I'm pretty sure some of the MiniDisplayPort-to-X adapters are active (i.e. they've got electronics in them) rather than just plug adapters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiRez View Post
I just don't understand why they didn't make the Thunderbolt spec capable of carrying enough power for a laptop in the first place
Generally, the computer is the power source for the Thunderbolt bus. What happens if someone daisy-chains a disc drive between computer and monitor?

Also, more power means thicker cables, bigger pins on the connector.

The fact that Thunderbolt was initially planned as an optical interface may also have had an effect - and remember, Thunderbolt isn't just Apple's toy - its a standard. Maybe having the computer powered by the monitor wasn't on other stakeholders' agendas?

More interestingly, I wonder why they didn't develop this idea - adding data lines to the magsafe connector:
http://www.macrumors.com/2011/02/17/...configuration/
...possibly worried about introducing non-standard connectors to Thunderbolt, or being compelled to license MagSafe to other Thunderbolt customers?
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Old Jun 13, 2012, 04:31 PM   #28
theluggage
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Originally Posted by KylePowers View Post
Think this means that there will be no update to the Thunderbolt Display this year?

I guess all it'd really get is USB 3.0 and a switch to MagSafe 2.0?
In that case, I hope they produce the reverse power converter: I haven't quite given up on getting a TB display for my 2011 MBP yet - and they're still selling computers with MagSafe 1.

I'm also still wondering how the Retina display is going to work with external monitors running at radically different PPIs to the main display. Currently, both screens run at the same notional PPI (96?) and things just grow or shrink slightly when you move them between displays with different pixel densities - but that would mean things at least doubling in size when dragged from a 220ppi retina display to a typical ~100ppi monitor.

I can't imagine applications would cope with rendering half of a window at 220ppi and the other half at 96ppi (as it was dragged across) so I guess the OS will have to work at one PPI internally and either upsample or downsample the images for one display. Would be interested to see how that looks - especially if its downsampling for the lower ppi display...
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Old Jun 13, 2012, 04:48 PM   #29
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100x

Imagine that 100 of those cost as much as the display... Come on, I know it is sexy, but is still only a little magnet...
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Old Jun 13, 2012, 04:56 PM   #30
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the factory seal on both of the tb display boxes i received this afternoon was cut and retaped over with a duplicate seal, presumably to drop in the card insert with the adapter.
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Old Jun 13, 2012, 08:04 PM   #31
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WHY change the MagSafe Connector in the first place?

The "MagSafe 2" is a _prime_ example of Apple simply changing things (yet again) for no need whatsoever. The 1st generation MagSafe is _exactly_ the same height of a normal USB port, and Apple has included several USB ports on their new machines (right next to the power supply), so why do we need a "thinner and longer" power connector anyhow?

All this will do is make your previously-purchased power connectors incompatible (without using the new $10. adapter). Remember: the MAIN DRAWBACK in the first place is when it's tugged just a bit too hard it comes undone! Same thing when accidentally pressed against your legs! Now add an extra 1/2" adapter onto the setup and I'll bet it comes undone more often than it stays put! I ask you: "Why?"

Why has the form factor been changed at all? Standard USB is _exactly_ the same height as the existing MagSafe, and they didn't change those (to mini or micro) so it can't be an issue of "height"...

This is yet another example of Apple changing things simply to make their products incompatible with older generations. It's called "planned obsolescence", and was pioneered by the auto industry. I own at least six power adapters, and now they're all useless without a $10. adapter? WHY? Also add non-upgradeable memory (and internal storage), and you have the least-upgradeable MBP Apple has ever made in it's entire history!

I have a 2008 MBP that has ALL necessary connections built right into the machine itself (with no adapters necessary): MagSafe, Ethernet (a _must have_), dual USB 2's, FW800, FW400, full-size DVI, discreet headphone & microphone input (both optically compatible), plus a PCI card slot that I use as a multi-card slot (which for $20. reads SD, MemoryStick, and more), PLUS an 18x SuperDrive. Similar battery life and a REAL (not chicklet) backlit keyboard round out what I personally would call a _real road warrior_!!! No adapters necessary (even though Apple included DVI to VGA for free)...

What more could you _possibly_ ask for in a portable? This latest MBP is _not_ an "upgrade", it's a regression. This is only a way for Apple to suck more money out of your pockets. If only Steve were still alive today, he'd probably be rolling over about right now... All of this has happened over just the past 4 years? "25% thinner and a faster processor with very few ports"-- Are you kidding me? This is a radical "improvement" that somehow makes up for everything else we've lost in the transition?

Call me "Old-School", but I want my "Swiss Army Knife" of an Apple MBP back!!!
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Old Jun 13, 2012, 08:34 PM   #32
JavaTheHut
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A little misleading "free"? its not free "its included" nothing is free!
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Old Jun 13, 2012, 09:07 PM   #33
BDD80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adildacoolset View Post
It's good to see that they are doing that. Would be better if they offered it with the macbook pro.
It might be silly for them to officially offer it with every new MacBook Pro, but I did get 2 free with my order. I ordered the higher stock configuration Retina MacBook Pro on Monday afternoon. Then realized that I needed some adapters. I called apple Monday evening to try to add them to the order so that I wouldn't have to pay shipping on $20 worth of accessories.

The customer service rep quickly offered to throw two of them in free of charge. I thanked him and quipped that at the price of the MacBook Pro, getting those for free makes a lot of sense. The rep then asked if I'd like to order other accessories. I declined and again thanked him the providing the adapters.

It wasn't a big thing for Apple or me, but just a small way that they showed their appreciation for my business.

Unfortunately, it looks like I'll get the adapters a week or so before the computer arrives. I wish it were the other way around.
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Old Jun 13, 2012, 10:51 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Feisar View Post
Should read:

It certainly is not a tremendous cost for Apple to include a $9.99 adapter with any MacBook Pro with Retina Display purchase.
For what purpose. the laptop as the power cord you need. And no other display would be connecting in such a way.

----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by HiRez View Post
I just don't understand why they didn't make the Thunderbolt spec capable of carrying enough power for a laptop in the first place, would have made all this a lot easier.
they would still need to have the magsafe of using the display with pre TB computers.
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Old Jun 14, 2012, 04:07 AM   #35
gjwfoasfsaevg
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Calling this "generous" is ridiculous. It's essential; or how would you explain to a customer who bought the high-end display and the high-end laptop that they can't use them together without an additional adapter?

I think the TB display is really due for an update. The internals seem kludgy and unnecessarily complex and expensive (there's more stuff than in a MBP).
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Old Jun 14, 2012, 04:59 AM   #36
quarx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrening View Post
The 1st generation MagSafe is _exactly_ the same height of a normal USB port, (...)
As concerns the visible MagSafe connector alone, you are right. But the internal height of the 1st generation MagSafe connector is slightly bigger than that of a USB port. I assume that this is due to stability, and Apple had to redesign the shape of the MagSafe plug in order to realize the same internal height as a USB socket.
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Old Jun 14, 2012, 07:22 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrening View Post
The "MagSafe 2" is a _prime_ example of Apple simply changing things (yet again) for no need whatsoever. The 1st generation MagSafe is _exactly_ the same height of a normal USB port, and Apple has included several USB ports on their new machines (right next to the power supply), so why do we need a "thinner and longer" power connector
I'd be willing to bet that the internal size of the MagSafe 1.0 port could not be thinned enough to fit in the new MBPs chassis. It's not all about what the port looks like on the outside.
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Old Jun 14, 2012, 12:17 PM   #38
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Honestly, with a $999 display and a $1000+ laptop, Apple should be offering these free of charge to every customer who owns any MDP or TB display and also a Mag2 laptop just as a goodwill gesture.

The reality, anyone who buys a TB display now is probably going to regret it. I have to believe an update w/ a Mag2 connector and USB3 and TB hub is going to drop sometime this year.
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Old Jun 14, 2012, 12:41 PM   #39
spyd4r
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think there will be a bump up to USB 3.0 for the Thunderbolt Display soon?
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Old Jun 14, 2012, 05:28 PM   #40
pmz
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I don't understand why this display is $1000.
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Old Jun 15, 2012, 10:42 AM   #41
Misaki
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HiRez View Post
I just don't understand why they didn't make the Thunderbolt spec capable of carrying enough power for a laptop in the first place, would have made all this a lot easier. You wouldn't have to use the power component if you didn't need it, but it would be there. Apple putting the Thunderbolt port on the opposite side from the MagSafe port on the MacBook Air was also goofy (fortunately they did it right with the new MacBook Pro Retina).
That fundamentally misunderstands the reason for the magsafe connector.

The Magsafe port and the Thunderbolt port serve two different purposes. A laptop can not run off a TB port because that would require heavier conductor cables that also introduce noise, requiring heavier insulating or more twists into the wire, making it more expensive. Likewise in reverse. Just we we need are stories about aftermarket cables causing fires.

Signal voltages have been going down, while power requirements have been going up. Have you noticed how the iPad3, some mobile phones, 2.5" external hard drives and some scanners can be plugged into USB2, but require either two ports or special "front ports only" modes? It's not ideal, but I'd rather have a standardized connector that can step-up/step-down the power for various devices. The closest we ever got to that is using USB2 ports stuck at 5 volts. The less wall warts there are, the better. Unfortunately my desk has one power brick for each external hard drive, ethernet switch, cable modem, macmini, scanner, camera, video camera, etc. Many of these external power cubes are 19V or 9/12V requiring up to 100 watts. Even automotive DC adapters are limited to about 75 watts.

Anyhow USB3 will allow up to 5A of power. Problem solved for many of these external devices. You're still not going to power a laptop on one.
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Old Jun 15, 2012, 02:28 PM   #42
MacOSExustio
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Originally Posted by WildCowboy View Post
Apple looks to the future, not the past. The Retina MacBook Pro works as intended out of the box without the converter, and it would be unnecessary for a significant number of people who wouldn't.. ..even many of those who don't need it yet will likely need it in the future when they buy new machines.
But I'm thinking of upgrading from a 2006 Macbook (Apple does WANT repeat customers, right?). So I can't keep my current power brick at the second house.. and use either adapter with either computer.. The old brick with the new Mac, yes, but not the new brick with the old mac. That is, if I wanted to keep one at both houses.

What annoys me is that I can't get a Retina Display MBP with a "real" (non-SSD) hard drive. True, 512 GB is probably enough (my current drive is only 100, so I shouldn't complain), but SSD is more expensive.

But then, everything is a set of tradeoffs, and SSD might end up being more efficient because OSX seems to use memory so much for caching - resulting in massive page-outs even when there (at least appears to be) 1 to 1.5 GB of "free" wired memory available.

(Yes, this is explained on other pages that I haven't read closely enough - about the people who shut down the dynamic pager and get a Mac that just flies - but will crash at a single hiccup. I seem to be getting stupider when it comes to technology as I get older. Or perhaps I don't really care about understand all those 'l33t' things anymore.

For that matter, would it kill Apple to make it so that "About This Mac" would actually list the YEAR of the machine, so that my book's about box would say "Macbook 2006"? As it is now, it just says "Intel Core 2 Duo", and I have to go to the System Info application to get the "Macbook1,1" model name, then go to everymac.com to find out the year.

Perhaps they don't want to put the rather "technical-looking" string "Macbook1,1" in the About box.. Fine - I even agree with them. But isn't "Intel Core 2 Duo" more "technical" than saying "2006 Macbook"? Maybe it's in their Intel contract? At least they don't have to play that stupid DTMF-phone-like jingle in their commercials

I've NEVER understood why companies don't choose "reasonable-coded" model numbers.. The Newton's software patch numbering system is possibly the epitomy of it..:

(from http://www.cat2.com/newton/Newton-FA....html#IIIA2d):
" The numbering system originated as a response to customer irrationality. The actual scheme is some combination of the ROM version the update applies to and the date the patch was generated..

First two digits is the model code:
Third digit is the last digit of the year.
Last three digits is the day the package was built.
"
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Old Jun 16, 2012, 10:13 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kbrening View Post
The "MagSafe 2" is a _prime_ example of Apple simply changing things (yet again) for no need whatsoever. The 1st generation MagSafe is _exactly_ the same height of a normal USB port, and Apple has included several USB ports on their new machines (right next to the power supply), so why do we need a "thinner and longer" power connector anyhow?

All this will do is make your previously-purchased power connectors incompatible (without using the new $10. adapter). Remember: the MAIN DRAWBACK in the first place is when it's tugged just a bit too hard it comes undone! Same thing when accidentally pressed against your legs! Now add an extra 1/2" adapter onto the setup and I'll bet it comes undone more often than it stays put! I ask you: "Why?"

Why has the form factor been changed at all? Standard USB is _exactly_ the same height as the existing MagSafe, and they didn't change those (to mini or micro) so it can't be an issue of "height"...
I think from the rumors that have been released it is likely that iPhone5 uses the new magsafe2. Apple is preemptively adding the thinner magsafe ahead of the iphone release to have a universal way to power their devices across all their platforms.
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Old Jun 17, 2012, 03:37 AM   #44
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It's pretty pointless to include one of those if you're not updating the display to usb3.

That's the only thing that's holding me back from buying one of these.
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Old Jun 17, 2012, 04:05 AM   #45
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I have the 27" cinema display (i.e. looks the same, but no ports on the back).

I'm waiting for them to update that to a retina model!
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Old Jun 17, 2012, 04:11 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by kbrening View Post
The "MagSafe 2" is a _prime_ example of Apple simply changing things (yet again) for no need whatsoever. The 1st generation MagSafe is _exactly_ the same height of a normal USB port, and Apple has included several USB ports on their new machines (right next to the power supply), so why do we need a "thinner and longer" power connector anyhow?

All this will do is make your previously-purchased power connectors incompatible (without using the new $10. adapter). Remember: the MAIN DRAWBACK in the first place is when it's tugged just a bit too hard it comes undone!
Umm, no... that's the main intentional design feature of the magsafe...
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Old Jun 17, 2012, 04:32 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by angemon89 View Post
It's pretty pointless to include one of those if you're not updating the display to usb3.

That's the only thing that's holding me back from buying one of these.
This. guessing we'll see an update for the TBD any time now, so I'm holding off as well until it has USB 3 ports.
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Old Jun 23, 2012, 09:51 AM   #48
Dangerous Theory
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They should include all necessary adapters with the products. They are doing good here but I do feel they could do it elsewhere. Like the MBP-R, might be nice for pros to have the Firewire adapter in the box no? And the Gigabit perhaps. How about the Superdrive.

These things cost peanuts for Apple but they charge high prices for them, and considering for over 1600 all you get is a laptop, its box and a charger.

Remember the days when stuff used to come with lots of goodies?

Someone will probably winge on and mention cost, but christ on a bike would it hurt the stratospheric margins Apple has on everything they sell that much to include some adapters?
I don't know if they should clutter the box with all adapters, but I believe they should at least offer them at a severely reduced price when spending several thousand.
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Old Jun 23, 2012, 12:05 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by MacOSExustio View Post
For that matter, would it kill Apple to make it so that "About This Mac" would actually list the YEAR of the machine, so that my book's about box would say "Macbook 2006"? As it is now, it just says "Intel Core 2 Duo", and I have to go to the System Info application to get the "Macbook1,1" model name, then go to everymac.com to find out the year.

Perhaps they don't want to put the rather "technical-looking" string "Macbook1,1" in the About box.. Fine - I even agree with them. But isn't "Intel Core 2 Duo" more "technical" than saying "2006 Macbook"? Maybe it's in their Intel contract? At least they don't have to play that stupid DTMF-phone-like jingle in their commercials
...they've been doing this since Lion.
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Old Jun 27, 2012, 07:35 AM   #50
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I know this is trivial, but Apple is a software company, why can't they grey out the Mag2Safe Converter or at least give you a message that one is included in the Thunderbolt display that you just selected. It's like the credit card readers that ask you debit or credit and still ask you for your pin when you choose credit. It's a few extra lines of code...add it!
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