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Mad-B-One

macrumors 6502a
Jun 24, 2011
789
5
San Antonio, Texas
Oh my! Some people here have absolutely no idea what they are writing about...

2 year "warranty" is not a warranty per se. The European Union mandates that every new product (with some obvious exclusions such as food) has to be able to work for 2 years on normal wear and tear. New cars 3 years, used cars 6 months, to name the major exceptions. Also, the first half a year, the seller has to show that the buyer was at fault in case he wants to deny an exchange, after that, within limitations, the consumer has to argue that the product was at fault and caused the malfunction. Most of the times, this makes no difference. Almost all retailers will just replace within the first 2 years. This is national law in basically all European Union countries even though it is in the National Laws. It follows the EU guideline. BTW: This does not apply to commercial customers: a company buying phones is not protected the same way - they always have to show they were not at fault and can actually waiver the standard warranty in favor of better prices.

The higher prices people mention have nothing to do with that. VAT in the United States is about 0-10% (if you include local VAT), in the European Union 17-25%, roughly speaking. This accounts for the price difference. Also: In Europe, prices shown include VAT, in the USA usually not.

Now, about what Apple is at fault off according to the ruling:

By law, the company issuing a "extended warranty" including e.g. replacement if customer was at fault, switch outs instead of send-in repair etc. - has to inform the customer about the differences between what the company is required to do by law and what the benefit of the extension is. This did and does not happen in a majority of the cases and this is a violation of the law. Simple as that.

And then the ones talking down the Italian economy: The per capita debt is way below the US debt. ($36,841 ITA vs. $50,266 USA) and the % of GDP is about the same (108 ITA vs 103 USA). Please, don't start to argue about the latter; Germany has 142% and pays 0% intrest on new debt... there are simply other factors as well - and the Italian economy is not that bad. They just have different problems than the USA, but unless you are a macroeconomist and really have extended knowledge about that, don't just bash Italy. Don't forget: The last recession was caused by the American Real Estate crisis - not by Greece, Iceland, or Ireland...
 
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Galatian

macrumors 6502
Dec 20, 2010
336
69
Berlin
PS: I know from first-hand experience that Apple stores in EU do try to downplay the 2-year "free from defect" warranty. So it's not just about the web-site; it's about Apple's (read: Apple as seller to end-users) business practices as well. Usually, if you give the staff a hard time - they will accept it; but again: the law is clear; there should not be any argument in Apple stores (bricks-and mortar and on-line via 800-number).

Not only that, but Apple didn't even offer the Magsafe power supply exchange! What? Chinamade Magsafe Adapters magically don't break because of the inherent manufacturing defect? 79€ for a charger that get's replaced for free in another country is pretty steep...Apple really is showing the middle finger to a lot of European customers and I'm sure they are making a much higher margin here in Europe vice the US because of it.
 

MH01

Suspended
Feb 11, 2008
12,107
9,297
Here here!

I've actually said on more than one occasion that that would be an excellent idea. It would have been a little more stereotypical and expected if it were Steve standing in front of the cameras metaphorically giving the EU the finger, but I actually think it would be even more effective if Tim Cook did it.

yeah Apple is going to pull out of the EU.... Ease off the Koolaid!

Next your going to tell me they are going to pull out of China and Make the gear in the USA again, bringing jobs and money back into the USA economy..... Ha ha ha...

Apple is too greedy for such fantasies....
 

smellalot

macrumors 6502
Dec 6, 2011
277
2
Image

Exactly, that would be what can be called misleading advertising. Except that I don't find that graphic on the Italian Apple website. Here is the main page on AppleCare which has a very small footnote (**) explaining the two-year warranty:
http://www.apple.com/it/support/products/

That footnote however is missing on the next page:
http://store.apple.com/it/browse/home/applecare

This whole discussion is one about nuances, ie, how prominent the explanation of the two-year warranty has to be. Without actually having read the Italian decision, we don't really know what exactly they want Apple to do. Just that they want Apple to do more than it currently does.

Gee, did'nt know they spoke German in Italy.

But your point is right. Apple have done this on a number if occasions (eg with the advertising of the '4G features of new iPad in non supported countries). They use the same medi promotions across countries without indiviualising to the local environment.

As for saying the Italians should learn how to read, well that's a bit harsh comming from those whow live in such a litigious country as the USA.


It's the same on the italian page:
http://store.apple.com/it/product/APPLECAREMBA-102582


Look, can't you guys just accept that Apple is actively advertising in a misleading way?
I personally was very confused by this for a few years. Since I was a kid there was a guarantee of two years on virtually everything. Apple is the only manufacturer I came across that pulls this kind of ****.
The whole "learn how to read" talking is just totally arrogant and childish.

Oh, the good thing: Apple made me read up on my customer rights ;)
 

Thunderhawks

Suspended
Feb 17, 2009
4,057
2,118
Apple must make a huge profit on Apple Care otherwise they would not push it so hard.

One would think Apple Care would be less expensive in the EU because under law Apple must already offer a free two year warranty. Applecare would only have to cover one more year play so phone support.


Apple Care is insurance

and insurance is the perfect crime!!

Especially life insurance. Look at all the insurers who make so much money that they don't know where to invest.

Can't build marble palaces all the time.

And, try to get paid on a large claim.

First they'll throw you out , because you had one and then they put the claim money in escrow as they know it takes forever to sue them and you will settle for less.

You pay for something you think you'll have when you need it, but when you try to use it they say you don't have it.

There is more, but just in a nutshell:

Insurance is the perfect crime!
 

themcfly

macrumors regular
Jul 20, 2011
144
272
From the comments in these thread i believe people did not actually understand what's going on: this is what's happening (italian here):

If you go in to the Apple Store, you select for example an iMac, and in the BTO options you scroll down to the AppleCare, there is a * at the end of the description:

* Benefits of AppleCare are additional to consumer rights under seller legal warranty. Click here for details.

If you click it loads a PDF file, in which you can find the details of the 2 year warranty (the 2nd year it's covered by the seller, for example if you bought it at Best Buy it's their job to get it repaired, if you bought it at the Apple Online Store there is information on how to contact).

The real issue behind all of this is in the description of AppleCare itself:

o04uu.jpg


From that image it seems that the warranty is 1 year only, and Apple is indeed trying to encourage customers to buy the extended warranty. But the 2-year seller warranty it's already there. Also this february, when i got in to an Apple Store to buy an iPhone 4S (the fine of 1.2$ just happened in december, and that PDF was added on the online store) when i expressly asked about the warranty, they told me it was 1 year only, even after I mentioned about that case that Apple was fined for.
 
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LostSoul80

macrumors 68020
Jan 25, 2009
2,136
7
It's Apple (and whatever other company) job to inform in a right way and not to try to obscure the law term to sell extended guarantees.

I agree. Many friends of mine have been telling me Apple states 1 year warranty is official, but the second year covers almost nothing.
Almost nothing, they say. If this isn't obscure practice, go figure. :rolleyes:
 

MH01

Suspended
Feb 11, 2008
12,107
9,297
Oh my! Some people here have absolutely no idea what they are writing about...

2 year "warranty" is not a warranty per se. The European Union mandates that every new product (with some obvious exclusions such as food) has to be able to work for 2 years on normal wear and tear. New cars 3 years, used cars 6 months, to name the major exceptions. Also, the first half a year, the seller has to show that the buyer was at fault in case he wants to deny an exchange, after that, within limitations, the consumer has to argue that the product was at fault and caused the malfunction. Most of the times, this makes no difference. Almost all retailers will just replace within the first 2 years. This is national law in basically all European Union countries even though it is in the National Laws. It follows the EU guideline. BTW: This does not apply to commercial customers: a company buying phones is not protected the same way - they always have to show they were not at fault and can actually waiver the standard warranty in favor of better prices.

The higher prices people mention have nothing to do with that. VAT in the United States is about 0-10% (if you include local VAT), in the European Union 17-25%, roughly speaking. This accounts for the price difference. Also: In Europe, prices shown include VAT, in the USA usually not.

Now, about what Apple is at fault off according to the ruling:

By law, the company issuing a "extended warranty" including e.g. replacement if customer was at fault, switch outs instead of send-in repair etc. - has to inform the customer about the differences between what the company is required to do by law and what the benefit of the extension is. This did and does not happen in a majority of the cases and this is a violation of the law. Simple as that.

And then the ones talking down the Italian economy: The per capita debt is way below the US debt. ($36,841 ITA vs. $50,266 USA) and the % of GDP is about the same (108 ITA vs 103 USA). Please, don't start to argue about the latter; Germany has 142% and pays 0% intrest on new debt... there are simply other factors as well - and the Italian economy is not that bad. They just have different problems than the USA, but unless you are a macroeconomist and really have extended knowledge about that, don't just bash Italy. Don't forget: The last recession was caused by the American Real Estate crisis - not by Greece, Iceland, or Ireland...

Spot on. Though the problem here is that most people commenting on here have little idea where Italy is and have not put two and two together that Italy is part of the EU and it's the EU law that is in question.
 

Schizoid

macrumors 65816
May 29, 2008
1,042
1,312
UK
Why don't Apple just include a three-year warranty with all Macs worldwide? Or would that break the bank?

I'm sure Australia/NZ have 3 year applecare included as standard...
 

apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
Oh my! Some people here have absolutely no idea what they are writing about...

2 year "warranty" is not a warranty per se. The European Union mandates that every new product (with some obvious exclusions such as food) has to be able to work for 2 years on normal wear and tear. New cars 3 years, used cars 6 months, to name the major exceptions. Also, the first half a year, the seller has to show that the buyer was at fault in case he wants to deny an exchange, after that, within limitations, the consumer has to argue that the product was at fault and caused the malfunction. Most of the times, this makes no difference. Almost all retailers will just replace within the first 2 years. This is national law in basically all European Union countries even though it is in the National Laws. It follows the EU guideline. BTW: This does not apply to commercial customers: a company buying phones is not protected the same way - they always have to show they were not at fault and can actually waiver the standard warranty in favor of better prices.

The higher prices people mention have nothing to do with that. VAT in the United States is about 0-10% (if you include local VAT), in the European Union 17-25%, roughly speaking. This accounts for the price difference. Also: In Europe, prices shown include VAT, in the USA usually not.

Now, about what Apple is at fault off according to the ruling:

By law, the company issuing a "extended warranty" including e.g. replacement if customer was at fault, switch outs instead of send-in repair etc. - has to inform the customer about the differences between what the company is required to do by law and what the benefit of the extension is. This did and does not happen in a majority of the cases and this is a violation of the law. Simple as that.

And then the ones talking down the Italian economy: The per capita debt is way below the US debt. ($36,841 ITA vs. $50,266 USA) and the % of GDP is about the same (108 ITA vs 103 USA). Please, don't start to argue about the latter; Germany has 142% and pays 0% intrest on new debt... there are simply other factors as well - and the Italian economy is not that bad. They just have different problems than the USA, but unless you are a macroeconomist and really have extended knowledge about that, don't just bash Italy. Don't forget: The last recession was caused by the American Real Estate crisis - not by Greece, Iceland, or Ireland...

If we're talking economy's and recession, American banks and the last government had a rather healthy part in causing it.
You have no job, no problem, here have a mortgage, a new car loan...... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And as has been stated, this is EU LAW, not exclusive Italian law. And the EU has NO problems taking on giant corporations, it has done countless times already.
 
C

champ01

Guest
Requiring a 2 year warranty in order to sell a product in your country does strike me as "stupid". But only because I'm a believer in the "free market". Personally, I feel that government intervention almost always does more harm than good when it extends beyond guaranteeing the most basic of protections. (EG. I'm not necessarily against a "truth in labeling" law, because really, you're only enforcing the requirement that a seller honestly state the nature of what's being sold. It helps ensure a buyer can make an educated decision as to what he/she wants to purchase.)

That said, I live in the U.S.A. where I think the majority of us still believe in such ideas (even when our politicians don't always practice them because they cave in to special interests).

If I had a company in the U.S.A. doing international business, I'd have to realize there are a lot of costs and "gotchas" with selling goods or services elsewhere... So yeah, if this is the law and Apple keeps trying to dodge it? It's Apple's problem. Sucks for them they have such an ingrained business model of offering 1 year warranties and AppleCare options to add 2 more -- but obviously, that's incompatible with Italy's rules of commerce.

There is no such thing as a free market.

Economy = economize

That means building products that last as long as possible.
Giving products 1/2 or even 3 years warranty isn't good enough.

Btw... The American Dream doesn't exist either.
 

D.T.

macrumors G4
Sep 15, 2011
11,050
12,460
Vilano Beach, FL
By law, the company issuing a "extended warranty" including e.g. replacement if customer was at fault, switch outs instead of send-in repair etc. - has to inform the customer about the differences between what the company is required to do by law and what the benefit of the extension is. This did and does not happen in a majority of the cases and this is a violation of the law. Simple as that.

Thanks, that was reasonably informative. So to be clear: the 3rd year of Applecare is definitely an extension of a year beyond the EU mandate, and there is improved coverage during the 2nd year vs. the EU imposed 2 year “warranty”. The latter isn’t unlike some extended contracts from large retailers where it’s a “2 year” extended warranty, but technically it overlaps the first year of the OEM, _but_ the extended warranty has pick up service, etc.

Seems to me the simple solution is to make sure Applecare is expressed as 1 year +additional+, 3 years +enhanced+ or some language (and supporting documents) to that effect.
 

G4DP

macrumors 65816
Mar 28, 2007
1,451
3
You must be kidding. American cars certainly aren't the greatest things since sliced bread, but implying that German cars are more reliable? Please. And let's not even talk about the reliability of Italian cars.

As a matter of fact, the highest-rated German car (in terms of reliability) per Consumer Reports' 2012 rankings is the BWM X3...which is built in Spartansburg, South Carolina, USA.

If you're going to insult my country because of your ignorance, look the ****** out. At a bare minimum, get your facts straight.

Tell ya what. You keep your cars and washing machines, and we'll keep our computers. How's that?

Well as you don't make any computers your f'cked.

Welcome to the EU. Something for nothing. :)

So your happy to spend thousands on something that only has a 1 year warranty?
 

Mad-B-One

macrumors 6502a
Jun 24, 2011
789
5
San Antonio, Texas
If we're talking economy's and recession, American banks and the last government had a rather healthy part in causing it.
You have no job, no problem, here have a mortgage, a new car loan...... :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

And as has been stated, this is EU LAW, not exclusive Italian law. And the EU has NO problems taking on giant corporations, it has done countless times already.

Yea, to some degree, you are right. The USA has a so-called Credit Score system in which you get better credit rates according to your history of paying back debts. In other words: You never were in debt, you can't get a loan for something like a house - and it mostly does not matter what your income is. It is even worse than having bounced credit cards or filed for bancruptcy.

Just an example: I never needed student loans, neither did my wife. We never had a credit card. I have a somewhat well-paid secure job. I couldn't get a house loan. I put a superficial credit on one of our paid-in-cash cars of $1000 I will pay off over the next year (9 months left) which cost me $125 in interest and needed "insurance" so I get a credit score. In other words, the U.S. banks don't even learn from that. It isn't important how secure your job is, how much you make, only what stupid score you have...
 

Mad-B-One

macrumors 6502a
Jun 24, 2011
789
5
San Antonio, Texas
Thanks, that was reasonably informative. So to be clear: the 3rd year of Applecare is definitely an extension of a year beyond the EU mandate, and there is improved coverage during the 2nd year vs. the EU imposed 2 year “warranty”. The latter isn’t unlike some extended contracts from large retailers where it’s a “2 year” extended warranty, but technically it overlaps the first year of the OEM, _but_ the extended warranty has pick up service, etc.

Seems to me the simple solution is to make sure Applecare is expressed as 1 year +additional+, 3 years +enhanced+ or some language (and supporting documents) to that effect.

Pretty much spot-on. Apple does not do that and that is the criticism here by court and customer advocacy groups. Those are, by the way, very stong lobbies - which is good because we all are customers at one point and we should (as voters) have a bigger weight than some industry lobby.
 

yadmonkey

macrumors 65816
Aug 13, 2002
1,306
838
Western Spiral
Is there any wonder why Italy's economy is in the *******? Toilet? Crapper?

Their economy is in the crapper because the government tries to advocate for consumers? Germany does that too (2 year warrantee and all) - that must explain why their economy is relatively doing so well.

Or maybe making a broad conclusion based on a shred of information is contrary to critical thought.
 

Glideslope

macrumors 604
Dec 7, 2007
7,927
5,359
The Adirondacks.
Well as you don't make any computers your f'cked.



So your happy to spend thousands on something that only has a 1 year warranty?

Yada, yada, yada. We are talking consumer electronics! One year is the norm.
Any electronic device that does not fail from a defect by 12m will last several more years without being abused.

Sorry. Just not a Socialist yet. :apple:

----------

Yap, nothing :rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Oh God. Not again. :)
 

apolloa

Suspended
Oct 21, 2008
12,318
7,802
Time, because it rules EVERYTHING!
Yea, to some degree, you are right. The USA has a so-called Credit Score system in which you get better credit rates according to your history of paying back debts. In other words: You never were in debt, you can't get a loan for something like a house - and it mostly does not matter what your income is. It is even worse than having bounced credit cards or filed for bancruptcy.

Just an example: I never needed student loans, neither did my wife. We never had a credit card. I have a somewhat well-paid secure job. I couldn't get a house loan. I put a superficial credit on one of our paid-in-cash cars of $1000 I will pay off over the next year (9 months left) which cost me $125 in interest and needed "insurance" so I get a credit score. In other words, the U.S. banks don't even learn from that. It isn't important how secure your job is, how much you make, only what stupid score you have...

The UK is similar mate. Personally I blame London banks, New York banks, the Bush Government and the Blair\ Brown government for the entire mess nearly. Sure the Euro was and is a crap idea, but if these people weren't so obsessed with pure greed, then the recession wouldn't happen and the Euro wouldn't be in such a mess.

In fact in the UK the banks are going to be investigated for another scandal, plus they had to repay millions and millions in loan protection insurance they mis-sold and they have been caught mis selling specialist insurance to small businesses!!
Seriously, banking is amongst the most corrupt business going, and all it's supposed to do is handle everyone else's money!! Pretty sickening really.
 
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