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Old Aug 10, 2012, 07:28 AM   #1
lessismo
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Blu-Rays subtitles

Hi there,

I use subler and its OCR for DVD VobSub works very well.

Unfortunately, I failed so far with BD PGS subs.

Is subler expected to work with PGS ? If not, which alternative do you use ?

Thanx !
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 09:06 AM   #2
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Handbrake (at least the recent builds..not sure about the release) supports PGS subtitles very well. Also includes foreign language search support too. HERE is where you can download the recent build.
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 09:32 AM   #3
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Originally Posted by blevins321 View Post
Handbrake (at least the recent builds..not sure about the release) supports PGS subtitles very well. Also includes foreign language search support too. HERE is where you can download the recent build.
Thx for answer.

Yep I use Handbrake for transcoding. But it supports VobSub and PGS (last release) for passthrough. It does not OCR them to text, so iTunes/appleTV cannot display them.

So comes my use of subler (plus tagging). Its works well with VobSub, but not with PGS from my experience so far.

Maybe I don't use it properly, or this is by design and I should find an alternative ?
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 09:38 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by lessismo View Post
Thx for answer.

Yep I use Handbrake for transcoding. But it supports VobSub and PGS (last release) for passthrough. It does not OCR them to text, so iTunes/appleTV cannot display them.

So comes my use of subler (plus tagging). Its works well with VobSub, but not with PGS from my experience so far.

Maybe I don't use it properly, or this is by design and I should find an alternative ?
So you are wanting to create an srt that will produce a subtitle track that can be turned on/off vs burned in which cannot be turned on/off, correct?
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 11:33 AM   #5
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Originally Posted by mic j View Post
So you are wanting to create an srt that will produce a subtitle track that can be turned on/off vs burned in which cannot be turned on/off, correct?
Correct . Sorry should have stated that clearly in first post.

Now just realised why Blevins mentionned Handbrake (burned subs).
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 11:38 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by lessismo View Post
Correct . Sorry should have stated that clearly in first post.

Now just realised why Blevins mentionned Handbrake (burned subs).
I am trying Subler out for a BR with PGS subtitles now. Have you considered downloading a srt instead of creating one?
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 11:56 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mic j View Post
I am trying Subler out for a BR with PGS subtitles now. Have you considered downloading a srt instead of creating one?
Wow, thx !
From my tests, the 3GPP Text I get from PGS via subler exist but are empty (duration 0 under subler).

Yes if this is not possible via OCR, I will download srt. I did that for my DVD transcode in the past.
It is not so easy: some srt contain mistakes, are not complete, some comes from PAL or NTSC sources and have not the same duration, etc.
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 12:40 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by lessismo View Post
Wow, thx !
From my tests, the 3GPP Text I get from PGS via subler exist but are empty (duration 0 under subler).

Yes if this is not possible via OCR, I will download srt. I did that for my DVD transcode in the past.
It is not so easy: some srt contain mistakes, are not complete, some comes from PAL or NTSC sources and have not the same duration, etc.
Yeah. Downloading is not ideal but Subler OCR produces a fair number of errors that need to be corrected and that is time consuming as well. My first attempt at PGS OCR using Subler did not work. But I want to check that it is something that I did wrong. Will post back as soon as I know for sure, one way or the other.

Update: Yep, it does not appear as though Subler can OCR BR PGS subtitles. Would love to know if someone has a different experience or has another "Mac-side" of doing this. I know there are Windows options, but would prefer to keep things clean if at all possible.
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Last edited by mic j; Aug 10, 2012 at 01:33 PM. Reason: Updated info
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 01:33 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mic j View Post
Yeah. Downloading is not ideal but Subler OCR produces a fair number of errors that need to be corrected and that is time consuming as well.
I've been downloading from "OpenSubTitles.org" and have had great success. Need to be a little careful to align the subtitles correctly to the voices, may rip from various sources and thus are off by seconds. But I found that is less time consuming than correcting the OCR issues. I would love it if someone made a DVD Rip Image that included ALL languages already aligned and ready to import. I add at least three languages to my movies now, but was thinking that the language files are not big, why not add ALL languages?
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 02:07 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by CylonGlitch View Post
I've been downloading from "OpenSubTitles.org" and have had great success. Need to be a little careful to align the subtitles correctly to the voices, may rip from various sources and thus are off by seconds. But I found that is less time consuming than correcting the OCR issues.
Thx, I will give this a try.
Do you use jubler for edit/re-aligning or another app ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CylonGlitch View Post
I add at least three languages to my movies now, but was thinking that the language files are not big, why not add ALL languages?
That is a great idea, plus would make easy watching movies with foreign friends .
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 03:18 PM   #11
mic j
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lessismo View Post
Thx, I will give this a try.
Do you use jubler for edit/re-aligning or another app ?



That is a great idea, plus would make easy watching movies with foreign friends .
Most of the srt's I have downloaded have been spot on...at least I haven't caught any problems, but that's because I am so busy watching the movie. But I do use Jubler for editing srt's created by Subler.

My method for subtitle timing is to
1) add the srt track using Subler.
2) Load the movie into VLC and check for dialog timing.
3) If it's off, I use my cellphone stopwatch to measure the timing difference.
4) Go back into Subler and change the audio offset value to whatever value I got off my stopwatch
5) Save and check again in VLC.
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 03:45 PM   #12
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Thanx a lot for the detailed processus, I will try that way
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 06:38 PM   #13
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My method requires a windows machine, but I make sure that they are flawless.

First, I have to have a DVD, sadly PGS OCR is a very hit and miss procedure for me. So, most of the time I'll always have a Blu-ray/DVD combo, this is where I get my subtitles, from the DVD and not the Blu-ray. I rip the subs from the DVD with Subrip and OCR them. I then check them for any mistakes with Jubler, save them, and then sync the time with the PGS subs from the Blu-ray to get a perfect sync (or near perfect since not all blu-ray subs are in perfect sync).

It's a lot of work, but this way I know that the subtitles are flawless since DVD OCR seems to be a lot more accurate and the mistakes are easier to spot compared to PGS.

Also, by using the DVD, you can also extract the Closed Captions on some of them that have it, and so you can put that in the Encoded Movie file. Which is nice to have.
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Old Aug 10, 2012, 07:33 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mic j View Post
Most of the srt's I have downloaded have been spot on...at least I haven't caught any problems, but that's because I am so busy watching the movie. But I do use Jubler for editing srt's created by Subler.

My method for subtitle timing is to
1) add the srt track using Subler.
2) Load the movie into VLC and check for dialog timing.
3) If it's off, I use my cellphone stopwatch to measure the timing difference.
4) Go back into Subler and change the audio offset value to whatever value I got off my stopwatch
5) Save and check again in VLC.
Basically what I do as well, except I use quicktime. I haven't used Jubler to edit anything, I do it all in Subler. Just select the track and set an offset + or - works. 1000 is one second change. So to move the subtitles earlier by 1.4 seconds set the offset to -1400. I go through a few times to make it work but often they are spot on.

Hint, when choosing what SRT to download look for ones created from the same source material (DVD or BluRay). Some are created from other formats so ignore those unless necessary. Most of the time if you use the ones from the same source, they will be right on. (took me a few times to realize why there were so many versions)
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Old Aug 11, 2012, 05:32 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Los View Post
My method requires a windows machine, but I make sure that they are flawless.

First, I have to have a DVD, sadly PGS OCR is a very hit and miss procedure for me. So, most of the time I'll always have a Blu-ray/DVD combo, this is where I get my subtitles, from the DVD and not the Blu-ray. I rip the subs from the DVD with Subrip and OCR them. I then check them for any mistakes with Jubler, save them, and then sync the time with the PGS subs from the Blu-ray to get a perfect sync (or near perfect since not all blu-ray subs are in perfect sync).

It's a lot of work, but this way I know that the subtitles are flawless since DVD OCR seems to be a lot more accurate and the mistakes are easier to spot compared to PGS.

Also, by using the DVD, you can also extract the Closed Captions on some of them that have it, and so you can put that in the Encoded Movie file. Which is nice to have.
Thx, I also run windows on my iMac (via parallel) so I can give a try to Subrip.

What difference do you make between Subtitles and Closed Captions ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by CylonGlitch View Post
Basically what I do as well, except I use quicktime. I haven't used Jubler to edit anything, I do it all in Subler. Just select the track and set an offset + or - works. 1000 is one second change. So to move the subtitles earlier by 1.4 seconds set the offset to -1400. I go through a few times to make it work but often they are spot on.

Hint, when choosing what SRT to download look for ones created from the same source material (DVD or BluRay). Some are created from other formats so ignore those unless necessary. Most of the time if you use the ones from the same source, they will be right on. (took me a few times to realize why there were so many versions)
OK, I will try today. Thx for the hint !
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Old Aug 11, 2012, 09:16 AM   #16
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Since you are running windows, you might want to take a look at SubExtractor. I just downloaded it yesterday. Comments at the development website were pretty positive and it is being consistently updated, while Subrip is not.
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Old Aug 11, 2012, 11:25 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lessismo View Post
What difference do you make between Subtitles and Closed Captions ?
What exactly do you mean? The difference between Closed Captions and Subtitles? They're mainly for the hearing impaired and so they're a lot more detailed than your traditional subtitles. However, recently, most Blu-rays and DVDs have introduced SDH Subtitles which are almost exactly the same thing, but they're Bitmap based. Closed Captions on the other hand are actual text files in a certain format, and you can extract them from a DVD that has Closed Captions.

The thing is, Closed Captions have that certain look, the one with the black bars and the white text. You can't get that look unless you convert the Closed Captions into .SCC file format, which Quicktime and all of Apple's devices support.

Then, to get that .SCC file format, you need to extract the CC's with CCExtractor with an output format of .RAW. You then get that .RAW file and convert it with a command line program called .RAW2SCC with the following command,

raw2scc -1 -tn input.raw output.scc

The "-tn" is very important since if you don't put it, the CC's will get out of sync with your video.

Get the .SCC file and Mux it into your desired movie. Now this is important, it WILL be out of sync since the DVD and the Blu-ray will not have the same framerate, and so it'll be out of sync by a little bit. Could be a second, half a second, or even two. This where you'll use the program CCADJ that's also included with the RAW2SCC program I mentioned earlier.

Run CCADJ in the command line, and you'll use the following command if they're early,

ccadj -o00:00:00:00 input.scc output.scc

If they're ahead, its' the same thing, but with a "-" between the "o" and "0" like so,

ccadj, -o-00:00:00:00 input.scc output.scc

The first set of zeros (going left to right) is hours, the second is minutes, third is seconds, and the last set are frames NOT Milliseconds. This is important.

That's how the process works for Closed Captions, it sounds like mouthful, but it gets easier once you know the process and doesn't take all that long actually. I'm thinking of sharing some of the Closed Captions that I've managed to do so far. I only have 12 movies at the moment, and they're all synced up with retail Blu-rays from the US. However, I haven't gotten around that idea of how to share them or where.
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Old Aug 11, 2012, 05:02 PM   #18
mic j
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Well, I've spent a couple days trying to create an srt from a BR source. I've used BDsup2sub, Subrip, SubExtractor and have had no luck. Here's what I did:

1) export sup file from mkv using MKVTools
2) convert sup file to idx/sub file using BDsup2sub
3) Tried to OCR the sub file using SubRip-Just got gibberish for characters
4) Tried to OCR the sub file using SubExtractor-it doesn't recognize the file type. Seems like it just want to work from a dvd disc and that's it. Could never get it to work and am going to contact the developer when the forum he is on allows me to post.

Right now, it just seems that downloading the srt is THE way to do it.
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Old Aug 12, 2012, 07:26 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Los View Post
What exactly do you mean? The difference between Closed Captions and Subtitles? They're mainly for the hearing impaired and so they're a lot more detailed than your traditional subtitles. However, recently, most Blu-rays and DVDs have introduced SDH Subtitles which are almost exactly the same thing, but they're Bitmap based. Closed Captions on the other hand are actual text files in a certain format, and you can extract them from a DVD that has Closed Captions.

The thing is, Closed Captions have that certain look, the one with the black bars and the white text. You can't get that look unless you convert the Closed Captions into .SCC file format, which Quicktime and all of Apple's devices support.

Then, to get that .SCC file format, you need to extract the CC's with CCExtractor with an output format of .RAW. You then get that .RAW file and convert it with a command line program called .RAW2SCC with the following command,

raw2scc -1 -tn input.raw output.scc

The "-tn" is very important since if you don't put it, the CC's will get out of sync with your video.

Get the .SCC file and Mux it into your desired movie. Now this is important, it WILL be out of sync since the DVD and the Blu-ray will not have the same framerate, and so it'll be out of sync by a little bit. Could be a second, half a second, or even two. This where you'll use the program CCADJ that's also included with the RAW2SCC program I mentioned earlier.

Run CCADJ in the command line, and you'll use the following command if they're early,

ccadj -o00:00:00:00 input.scc output.scc

If they're ahead, its' the same thing, but with a "-" between the "o" and "0" like so,

ccadj, -o-00:00:00:00 input.scc output.scc

The first set of zeros (going left to right) is hours, the second is minutes, third is seconds, and the last set are frames NOT Milliseconds. This is important.

That's how the process works for Closed Captions, it sounds like mouthful, but it gets easier once you know the process and doesn't take all that long actually. I'm thinking of sharing some of the Closed Captions that I've managed to do so far. I only have 12 movies at the moment, and they're all synced up with retail Blu-rays from the US. However, I haven't gotten around that idea of how to share them or where.
Wow, did not suspected this could be such a subject.
Thx for clarifications and process details to make them work with apple equipment.

I used to watch quite some TV programs with english closed captions when I finished my studies in the UK. The good point was all words are written, whether subs are usually simplified. I could fully follow the program, plus that was a great teacher .

Will definitely give it a try for my movies.

Last edited by lessismo; Aug 12, 2012 at 07:47 AM.
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Old Aug 12, 2012, 07:44 AM   #20
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Originally Posted by mic j View Post
Well, I've spent a couple days trying to create an srt from a BR source. I've used BDsup2sub, Subrip, SubExtractor and have had no luck. Here's what I did:

1) export sup file from mkv using MKVTools
2) convert sup file to idx/sub file using BDsup2sub
3) Tried to OCR the sub file using SubRip-Just got gibberish for characters
4) Tried to OCR the sub file using SubExtractor-it doesn't recognize the file type. Seems like it just want to work from a dvd disc and that's it. Could never get it to work and am going to contact the developer when the forum he is on allows me to post.

Right now, it just seems that downloading the srt is THE way to do it.
Thx for your work and feedback. It is really great help.
OK then, I will focus on srt download, hope the sources will be satisfying.

----------

Related issue: for forced subtitles, I currently just use a standard sub track.

So for eg. I have 2 french subs, same name "french", one with standard sub and one with forced sub only.

Is it possible/recommended to change the name of one sub track like "french forced" ?

Others I would use: "english close captions", "english forced", "german forced", etc.

Thx again
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Old Aug 14, 2012, 09:14 PM   #21
mic j
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I Cracked It!!!

For those of you with waaaayyy too much time or are extremely anal, here is an abbreviated tutorial on converting PGS subtitles to srt using all Mac apps:

Need: MKVtools (beta)
BDsup2sub
MKVToolnix
Subler
1. Using MKVtools, extract the PGS subtitle track from the mkv (creates a .sup file).
2. Using BDsup2sub, convert the .sup to a VOBSUB (creates a .idx and .sub file):
-Load the .sup file
-Click OK
-Click SAVE
3. Using MKVtools, remove the PGS subtitle track from the mkv.
4. Using MKVtoolnix, add the .idx track to the mkv that has had the PGS subtitle track removed. You now have a bluray mkv with a VOBSUB subtitle track instead of a PGS Subtitle track.
5. Using Subler:
-Click NEW
-Click IMPORT and select the modified mkv
-Uncheck all of the tracks except the VOBSIB track and make sure that the Action column says 3GPP Text.
-Click ADD
-SAVE (or SAVE AS). Subler will then OCR the VOBSUB track and generate an .srt file
6. Using Jubler, correct any OCR mistakes, then SAVE.

Have fun!!!!!
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Old Aug 14, 2012, 09:32 PM   #22
The DRis
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FML. My love for subtitles has just become hate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mic j View Post
For those of you with waaaayyy too much time or are extremely anal, here is an abbreviated tutorial on converting PGS subtitles to srt using all Mac apps:

Need: MKVtools (beta)
BDsup2sub
MKVToolnix
Subler
1. Using MKVtools, extract the PGS subtitle track from the mkv (creates a .sup file).
2. Using BDsup2sub, convert the .sup to a VOBSUB (creates a .idx and .sub file):
-Load the .sup file
-Click OK
-Click SAVE
3. Using MKVtools, remove the PGS subtitle track from the mkv.
4. Using MKVtoolnix, add the .idx track to the mkv that has had the PGS subtitle track removed. You now have a bluray mkv with a VOBSUB subtitle track instead of a PGS Subtitle track.
5. Using Subler:
-Click NEW
-Click IMPORT and select the modified mkv
-Uncheck all of the tracks except the VOBSIB track and make sure that the Action column says 3GPP Text.
-Click ADD
-SAVE (or SAVE AS). Subler will then OCR the VOBSUB track and generate an .srt file
6. Using Jubler, correct any OCR mistakes, then SAVE.

Have fun!!!!!
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Old Aug 14, 2012, 10:41 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by The DRis View Post
FML. My love for subtitles has just become hate.
It may look bad, but it actually takes longer to correct the subtitles than to generate them.
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Old Aug 15, 2012, 10:25 AM   #24
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It may look bad, but it actually takes longer to correct the subtitles than to generate them.
That's where my issue is, haha.
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Old Aug 20, 2012, 11:59 AM   #25
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Thx for the trick mic j !
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