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diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,100
2,440
OBX
Did you even read the article? You do realize this isn't an A15 core, right?

You've seen the iPhone 6? You must have some super high clearance at Apple. :D

Edit: What device is using the Krait core? Do we have any benchmarks comparing the 2? The innovation in this design is the effort Apple went through to make it the most efficient and also most powerful mobile processor currently on the market.

The American version of the SGS3 uses Krait, while the International version uses Exynos 4 (plain Cortex A9).
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,100
2,440
OBX
Thanks, I faintly recall hearing that a couple of weeks ago. Needed a reminder. :D

I would guess that Apple is closer to A15 than Samsung is with Krait. Seeing that the 1.2Ghz A6 is faster than the 1.5Ghz Krait*




*in certain/most situations.

Though to be honest I am not sure how folks are getting higher than 1650 for the iPhone 5. All my tests float around that number. For the SGS3 folks seem to be putting the device in Airplane mode (or turning off power saving) to free up processing power.
 

kdarling

macrumors P6
can someone explain this? does it mean that the initial design was created by hand? or every single phone has a hand made chip

Systems on a Chip like this are composed of functional blocks.

For example, one or more CPUs, one or more GPUs, timing, video, memory, high speed I/O and other circuit blocks.

(Many sections are composed of even smaller functional blocks ... eg. a CPU section will contain registers, cache, memory interface, etc.).

When people talk about customzing such systems, often it simply means picking and choosing the major blocks you want to include on the chip. Sometimes it includes adding on some custom circuits. After that, you have to decide how to lay out and interconnect them: let the program do it automatically, have an experienced designer do it manually, or a combination.

What the article is saying, is that the layout indicates there was some manual intervention, which might be done to try to speed up certain connections by placing them closer together. (Even at electrical speed, distance counts.)

Note that a manual layout can also be a bad idea. When Apple was working on the Macintosh, Steve Jobs (who knew very little about electronics) demanded that the Mac circuit board memory lines be laid out in such a way that the board would "look nicer". The engineers tried to explain that this would cause cross-talk and memory failure, but Jobs wouldn't take no for an answer. So they gave in and built a prototype board like he asked. Of course it failed as expected, and they went back to using correct design methods. This wasn't at the chip level, but it points out that you want experienced designers.
 

winterspan

macrumors 65816
Jun 12, 2007
1,008
0
Really? The quad core version of the Galaxy SIII performs better then the iPhone 5, atleast according to geekbench.

I haven't seen the GeekBench numbers yet, but If you look at Anandtech's iPhone 5 preview, it blows the Galaxy S3 away, particularly the dual-core LTE version that all the USA carriers have. (The quad-core international version benchmarks better in many cases but still a lot slower than iPhone 5)


Browsermark
191,726 vs 114,812 (USA GS3)

SunSpider (lower is better)
908 vs 1751 (USA GS3)

GLBenchmark 2.5 - Fill Test Offscreen 1080P
1675 vs 312.1 (USA GS3)

GLBenchamark 2.5 - Triangle Texture Test Offscreen 1080P
87.5 vs 39.6 (USA GS3)

GLBenchamark 2.5 - Triangle Texture Test - Fragment Lit Offscreen 1080P
65.9 vs 34.8 (USA GS3)

GLBenchamark 2.5 - Triangle Texture Test - Vertext Lit Offscreen 1080P
74.8 vs 34.8 (USA GS3)

GLBenchamark 2.5 - Egypt HD Offscreen 1080P
27 vs 13 (USA GS3)

GLBenchamark 2.5 - Egypt Classic Offscreen 1080P
91 vs 28 (USA GS3)


see: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6324/the-iphone-5-performance-preview
 

Yojimbo007

macrumors 6502a
Jun 13, 2012
692
574
How can the arm block be hand layed... The thing is so small... How cant that even be possible... And why would they do that?
Can anyone explain
 

ctdonath

macrumors 68000
Mar 11, 2009
1,592
629
(Just to pile on the joy of explaining cool things...)
ten_thousand.png


Integrated circuits, CPUs in particular, in effect have billions of parts. Hooking them all together to create a fast & reliable CPU is way beyond the capability of humans; instead of thinking about how each "transistor" must be connected, we've figured out how to describe the goal to a computer and wrote programs that would automatically figure out how to connect all those billions of parts together (and it works!).

Unfortunately, in automating design of such a complex system not everything gets done quite as well as it could be. It will work, and work well, but maybe not as close to perfect as possible. In the iPhone 5 case, Apple had people do some of that typically-automated work, working long & hard on mind-numbing complexities & nuances, designing something which worked better & faster than computers could generate.

Having hand-designed an integrated circuit consisting of a few hundred "transistors", and written software to auto-design more complex circuits, I'm very impressed by the software used to arrange billions of transistors, and even more impressed that those billions were then re-arranged by humans to create something even faster.

BTW: the term "lay out" refers to a process similar to how a printer would "lay out" a page (paper or web) of text & pictures in various colors, deciding what goes where and being aware of the interaction thereof. In a sense an integrated circuit is produced by drawing a picture and then "printing" it, just with weird chemicals having strange electrical properties and printed really really really small.
 

nick_elt

macrumors 68000
Oct 28, 2011
1,578
0
I would guess that Apple is closer to A15 than Samsung is with Krait. Seeing that the 1.2Ghz A6 is faster than the 1.5Ghz Krait*




*in certain/most situations.

Though to be honest I am not sure how folks are getting higher than 1650 for the iPhone 5. All my tests float around that number. For the SGS3 folks seem to be putting the device in Airplane mode (or turning off power saving) to free up processing power.

What do you mean Samsung is with Krait? Krait is not Samsungs.
 

diamond.g

macrumors G4
Mar 20, 2007
11,100
2,440
OBX
What do you mean Samsung is with Krait? Krait is not Samsungs.


Er your right Krait is Qualcomms. Exynos is Samsungs. Exynos 5 is supposed to be A15. Confused phone manufacturer with CPU maker (where with Apple is is hard to get that part wrong).
 

Geckotek

macrumors G3
Jul 22, 2008
8,767
308
NYC
\
Integrated circuits, CPUs in particular, in effect have billions of parts. Hooking them all together to create a fast & reliable CPU is way beyond the capability of humans; instead of thinking about how each "transistor" must be connected, we've figured out how to describe the goal to a computer and wrote programs that would automatically figure out how to connect all those billions of parts together (and it works!).

You just described Skynet. :eek:
 

joeblough

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2006
584
403
Systems on a Chip like this are composed of functional blocks.

For example, one or more CPUs, one or more GPUs, timing, video, memory, high speed I/O and other circuit blocks.

(Many sections are composed of even smaller functional blocks ... eg. a CPU section will contain registers, cache, memory interface, etc.).

When people talk about customzing such systems, often it simply means picking and choosing the major blocks you want to include on the chip.
...

What the article is saying, is that the layout indicates there was some manual intervention, which might be done to try to speed up certain connections by placing them closer together. (Even at electrical speed, distance counts.)

check this article: http://www.anandtech.com/show/6292/iphone-5-a6-not-a15-custom-core

it's believed that apple has implemented their own arm-compatible CPU.

this article just says that it looks like a custom layout. again, they're not going to place each and every logic gate and flip-flop by hand. there's too many. but, as pointed out earlier they may have layed out some flops and gates of the datapaths by hand. what you are looking at in that die photo is the result of floorplanning different blocks within the CPU to particular areas of the chip.

there are special design tools for laying out asics. you work on it iteratively, doing the floorplanning, placing some of the large cells (like PLLs, DLLs and internal memories) by hand in the graphical tool. you then take that layout and create a representation of it that the placer/router can understand, and you autoplace and route the design. you then extract the timing and all the parasitic capacitances and resistances from the routed design and "back-annotate" the gate netlist of the chip. (the gate netlist is sort of like a schematic - it's composed of logic gates and flip flops, rather than high-level code like verilog).

then, you do a static timing analysis of the back-annotated netlist to see if it can run at whatever frequency you need. if not, well, back to the layout to try to upsize buffers and fix whatever violating paths you have. if you can't get it to meet timing with layout tricks, you may have to make changes to the RTL and re-synthesize the design (which is something i didn't cover above)

if you find a bug in the logic while you're doing the layout, you may have to do an ECO, that is, edit the gate netlist itself to implement the fix. this is because the layout engineers may have done some hand placement and they don't want to start over again with a new synthesized netlist which could have different net names.

then you have to do all kinds of design rule checks to make sure that the placement and routing is actually kosher for the cell library and process rules you are using. finally, you "tape out" which means to send the layout of each layer of the chip to your fab, and they start making it.

that's a very simplified view. in reality you also have to do gate-level simulations of the back-annotated netlist to make sure the chip will really come out of reset and the PLLs will lock, etc. also like i said i didn't cover the actual logic design, which will be done in either Verilog or VHDL and synthesized into gates with Synopsys' Design Compiler or similar software. all of that comes before you use whatever tool you use to do the layout. oh, and you need to do formal verification between the RTL and the gates, and between the pre-layout gate netlist and the post-layout gate netlist, since logic can be inserted during the layout phase. you need to make sure that the logic is the same as the original design after you've touched it.

so yeah, apple sends this stuff to samsung and samsung fabs the chip. but if you think that apple's "just using" samsung's off the shelf stuff, you're wrong. at this point the A6 cpu core is a custom apple design. and even if they were just using library components for the CPU and everything else, apple engineers still have to do all the placement, timing analysis, etc. if the chip comes back a brick it's just as likely to be apple's fault as samsung's. all of the above stuff i've written is entirely on apple's plate.

it's a lot of work and it's work that apple has done, not samsung.
 

joeblough

macrumors 6502a
Sep 30, 2006
584
403
I still don't get the manual placement and how it differs from the norm.

if they were using an off-the-shelf CPU core, they would plonk it down. all the wires, flops, memories and logic cells are pre-made. it's like a black box.

here, they designed the CPU themselves and so they were responsible for the layout of the CPU. the floorplan was designed by humans but the detailed placement and routing was handled by a computer.

in the case of the pre-made CPU, that was done as well, but it was done by ARM engineers or perhaps samsung engineers. as far as apple is concerned though they just instantiate it and hook it up and it's supposed to work.
 

BiscottiGelato

macrumors 6502
Mar 11, 2011
307
132
Trying to explain ASIC design to people with no computer engineering experience is like trying to speak to a tree and make it understand Shakespear. People dealing with ASIC is like working on an Alien planet speaking an Alien language... That's why they are relatively well paid... (but perhaps still not well paid enough compared to your average Wall Street type who does nothing but trying to steal money from the average joe)

Simpler yet, just enjoy your iPhone 5 and know that every detail received immense clever innovations, not the otherwise that pundits claimed.
 

greytmom

macrumors 68040
Jun 23, 2010
3,566
1,002
Trying to explain ASIC design to people with no computer engineering experience is like trying to speak to a tree and make it understand Shakespear. People dealing with ASIC is like working on an Alien planet speaking an Alien language... That's why they are relatively well paid... (but perhaps still not well paid enough compared to your average Wall Street type who does nothing but trying to steal money from the average joe)

Simpler yet, just enjoy your iPhone 5 and know that every detail received immense clever innovations, not the otherwise that pundits claimed.

Hey, Mr. Condescending. I do not have a background in computer engineering, but I can certainly appreciate the explanations given here.
 

Glideslope

macrumors 604
Dec 7, 2007
7,927
5,359
The Adirondacks.
Thats rather impressive

Agreed. Ground Breaking IMO. :apple:

----------

Trying to explain ASIC design to people with no computer engineering experience is like trying to speak to a tree and make it understand Shakespear. People dealing with ASIC is like working on an Alien planet speaking an Alien language... That's why they are relatively well paid... (but perhaps still not well paid enough compared to your average Wall Street type who does nothing but trying to steal money from the average joe)

Simpler yet, just enjoy your iPhone 5 and know that every detail received immense clever innovations, not the otherwise that pundits claimed.

Nice. ;)
 

chrmjenkins

macrumors 603
Oct 29, 2007
5,325
158
MD
It will be interesting and fun to watch Apple and Qualcomm trade blows over who has the best custom ARM CPU out there.
 

hchung

macrumors 6502a
Oct 2, 2008
689
1
I still don't get the manual placement and how it differs from the norm.

Okay, let's try another analogy.

It's kind of like when you're packing to go on a business trip, and you have a tiny suitcase but a lot of clothes. There are ways you can put these clothes into the suitcase where you improve other things like not wrinkling the important clothes and be able to access your suit easier without taking everything out.

So....

Suppose the normal method is to hand all the clothes to a machine which then just folds and shoves it in neatly. That's fine and all, but often times it puts your suit in the bottom, your casual clothes on top, and then stuffs the rest of the space with socks and underwear. It's fast, it's quick, and it does a pretty darn good job typically of getting your stuff packed.

But you happen to know that the first thing you do when you arrive to your destination every time is to change into your suit and then go to a meeting, then go for a workout. You'd ideally like your suit up top first, and then your gym clothes for a workout right after. So you instead give the machine some of the clothes to pack, and then you manually finish the job in order to get a more optimal packing job.

Same idea.

When you're designing a chip and you have functional blocks that you need to place onto the chip, you have limited space and need to figure out where to put all these blocks. Plus, there's benefits from the layout of blocks where you improve other things like clock speed or power consumption.

The normal method is to autoroute/autoplace it by having the computer do it. It typically does a reasonably good job. But an experienced engineer can do better, just like how an experienced businessman knows how to pack their suitcase more optimally.

----------

It will be interesting and fun to watch Apple and Qualcomm trade blows over who has the best custom ARM CPU out there.

Indeed.

Too bad the other companies who could make custom ARMs arn't around to join in on the fun. DEC is dead, nVidia's custom ARM project isn't for mobile, and Marvell just does lower end stuff.
 

gturban

macrumors newbie
Feb 6, 2010
27
0
Trying to explain ASIC design to people with no computer engineering experience is like trying to speak to a tree and make it understand Shakespear. People dealing with ASIC is like working on an Alien planet speaking an Alien language... That's why they are relatively well paid... (but perhaps still not well paid enough compared to your average Wall Street type who does nothing but trying to steal money from the average joe)

Simpler yet, just enjoy your iPhone 5 and know that every detail received immense clever innovations, not the otherwise that pundits claimed.

With no education in anything computer I can also appreciate these explanations. I guess it might not be rocket science after all.. ;) And I think it's wall street that overpays, not engineering that underpays.
 

macs4nw

macrumors 601
it's not about bragging. it's about showing what amazing work they did

While I agree with your point about "the amazing work they did", I don't think he said bragging, but barraging as in 'overwhelming'.

why didn't they give out all those amazing specs at the keynote? this is absolutely amazing! job(s) well done

The keynote wouldn't have been the right place & time to get into all those technical intricacies.

....Perhaps most notably, the custom ARM-based CPU developed by Apple for the A6 appears to have been manually laid out on the die, an expensive and time-consuming process but one that can offer greater efficiency than automatic layout.....A manual layout will usually result in faster processing speeds, but it is much more expensive and time consuming.

Another fine example of APPLE's elegant, meticulous, no-holds-barred engineering!
 
Last edited:

oliversl

macrumors 65816
Jun 29, 2007
1,498
426
Can someone show us the difference between automatic and manual layout? It should be really interesting.
 

Gemütlichkeit

macrumors 65816
Nov 17, 2010
1,276
0
Okay, let's try another analogy.

It's kind of like when you're packing to go on a business trip, and you have a tiny suitcase but a lot of clothes. There are ways you can put these clothes into the suitcase where you improve other things like not wrinkling the important clothes and be able to access your suit easier without taking everything out.

So....

Suppose the normal method is to hand all the clothes to a machine which then just folds and shoves it in neatly. That's fine and all, but often times it puts your suit in the bottom, your casual clothes on top, and then stuffs the rest of the space with socks and underwear. It's fast, it's quick, and it does a pretty darn good job typically of getting your stuff packed.

But you happen to know that the first thing you do when you arrive to your destination every time is to change into your suit and then go to a meeting, then go for a workout. You'd ideally like your suit up top first, and then your gym clothes for a workout right after. So you instead give the machine some of the clothes to pack, and then you manually finish the job in order to get a more optimal packing job.

Same idea.

When you're designing a chip and you have functional blocks that you need to place onto the chip, you have limited space and need to figure out where to put all these blocks. Plus, there's benefits from the layout of blocks where you improve other things like clock speed or power consumption.

The normal method is to autoroute/autoplace it by having the computer do it. It typically does a reasonably good job. But an experienced engineer can do better, just like how an experienced businessman knows how to pack their suitcase more optimally.

Long winded and boring

if they were using an off-the-shelf CPU core, they would plonk it down. all the wires, flops, memories and logic cells are pre-made. it's like a black box.

here, they designed the CPU themselves and so they were responsible for the layout of the CPU. the floorplan was designed by humans but the detailed placement and routing was handled by a computer.

in the case of the pre-made CPU, that was done as well, but it was done by ARM engineers or perhaps samsung engineers. as far as apple is concerned though they just instantiate it and hook it up and it's supposed to work.
This makes more sense :D
 
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