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Old Nov 4, 2012, 01:48 PM   #276
blasto2236
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Display discussion

I just wanted to throw my opinion in on the display front.

I wholeheartedly agree that Google (and by extension, Samsung) just don't get what makes the iPad sell like hotcakes. You can get in to a pissing contest over specs all you want, but the fact of the matter is that the iPad display excels at less quantative specs such as color gamut, contrast, viewing angles, etc.

While I haven't played with a Nexus 10, I did own a Nexus 7 for some time, and have recently swapped it out for the iPad Mini. Now if you look solely at the resolution and PPI, the Nexus 7 display smokes the iPad Minis. However, I am often not the only one using my tablet. I like to play a lot of board game style games, such as Monopoly, with friends. With the Nexus 7, this is almost impossible without actually handing them the device, because more than one person can not properly view that screen before the limited viewing angles and contrast ruin the experience. And you can forget about watching movies while it's on a stand, unless you can perfectly calibrate it to your viewing angle and don't move once.

I'll take a lower resolution and PPI in exchange for increased color gamut, brightness, contrast, and viewing angles EVERY time. The funny part is that, up until recently, the iPad consistently beat all the competitors in the resolution/PPI department also. Until Google/Samsung/ASUS can actually match the QUALITY of Apple displays, and not just the resolution/PPI, they are still going to be inferior displays IMO.

Edit: Off topic, but as far as 7" tablets go, I think Apple has totally nailed it with the Mini. Going back to the Monopoly example, I was constantly pressing the wrong buttons on the Nexus 7 because of the screen size (and also likely because Monopoly for Android is an upscaled phone app, not tablet optimized), whereas with the iPad Mini, everything is the exact right size it should be to keep a 7" tablet usable. I think the difference between a native app and an upscaled phone app is really going to show a lot more on the 7"ers than on the 10s.

Last edited by blasto2236; Nov 4, 2012 at 02:07 PM. Reason: Edited to add
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 02:32 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by blasto2236 View Post
because more than one person can not properly view that screen before the limited viewing angles and contrast ruin the experience. And you can forget about watching movies while it's on a stand, unless you can perfectly calibrate it to your viewing angle and don't move once.
What faulty Nexus 7 did you have? It is the only reason you cna't view the screen perfectly at an angle of view of almost 90 degrees
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 02:39 PM   #278
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Design wise, it's very ugly

Spec wise, this tablet is ready for battle, without a question. But haven't we learned that spec's aren't going to win this battle. Lets first examine the build. The edges have so much boarder, Why? The back isn't too bad but it does have a cheap look.

Software side: Android 4.1 was solid so I wouldn't expect anything less with 4.2. I feel in love with my nexus 7 because of 4.1. But we all see the elephant in the room. Tablet apps in the google play store are few and far in between. They really need to work that angle before it can go toe to toe with the ipad in my opinion.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 02:45 PM   #279
blasto2236
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What faulty Nexus 7 did you have? It is the only reason you cna't view the screen perfectly at an angle of view of almost 90 degrees

It's certainly possible that I simply had a faulty unit. I certainly experienced the "screen separation" issue that has plagued the Nexus 7 since it was released. One of a plethora of reasons why I returned it.

It would be nice to see it running 4.2, however, as 4.1 was essentially a phone UI that was stuck on a tablet.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 03:01 PM   #280
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Flash runs really well on my phone, even better than on my macbook. No fans in my phone. My battery also lasts longer than my iphone. Your post is simply fanboy crap.
Indeed, which must be the primary reason behind Adobe's decision to cease future development of Flash on portable devices -- "Niffy is an unwavering anti-Flash fanboi, therefore let's kill future Flash on portable devices."

I can hear those exact Adobe boardroom echoes . . . funny how some corporate product decisions are made, eh?

That aside, you do realize that Flash is a mile-wide security hole/risk just begging for a malware exploit, by virtue of its fundamentally poor security model architecture . . . ?


Niffy

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Old Nov 4, 2012, 03:16 PM   #281
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It's a valid point but only to a degree. Android is now a predominant mobile OS and developers have to take it seriously.
Which flavor/version of the Android OS are you referring to? How many of the installed/already deployed Android user base are able to load up the latest last couple of Android OSs? How many of the in-the-field and OWNED (not sitting on a store shelf or in some warehouse) Android devices are able to show the latest and greatest features and capabilities of the current Android OS?

Quote:
Also, because of the open nature of Android ecosystem, it provides way more opportunities for developers than iOS. Integration of stylus by Samsung is one such example.
How well do the current Android SDK/APIs support development of cool and useful Android features across a wide installed existing user base, and across a wide variety of Android hardware?

Above are rhetorical questions that developers well-understand the answers to, and point to an important deficiency for Android developers with regards to how OS and device fragmentation impacts the cost of developing, upgrading and supporting Android apps with today's Android business/development model -- i.e., how do I make MONEY without having to deal with crufty and problematic developer issues that are slow to resolve?


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Old Nov 4, 2012, 03:18 PM   #282
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Originally Posted by Niff Stipples View Post
Indeed, which must be the primary reason behind Adobe's decision to cease future development of Flash on portable devices -- "Niffy is an unwavering anti-Flash fanboi, therefore let's kill future Flash on portable devices."

I can hear those exact Adobe boardroom echoes . . . funny how some corporate product decisions are made, eh?


Niffy
Whatever their reason was. It was not "because it's crap"like you sayed. Most corporate decisions are based on profitability not on some fanboys thoughts. Millions use it daily and for now is the only option in many instances. I use it often and I am glad that I can access it on my phone and my manufacturer hasn't made that decision for me just because Steve said it sucked.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 03:21 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by blasto2236 View Post
It's certainly possible that I simply had a faulty unit. I certainly experienced the "screen separation" issue that has plagued the Nexus 7 since it was released. One of a plethora of reasons why I returned it.

It would be nice to see it running 4.2, however, as 4.1 was essentially a phone UI that was stuck on a tablet.
I suffered thru several screen lift issues when the Nexus 7 was first released and got a refund. When the 32GB model was released my first N7 had a speck of dust or lint trapped under the screen but no screen lift. I got an exchange and that one had screen lift on the left side. The final replacement was perfect.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 03:34 PM   #284
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One thing that i definitely love about Android Jelly Bean, is the how classy the User Interface looks. Makes iOS look very outdated and something fisher price designed, compared to Android which just looks more mature and classy. For me this is jus eye opening, because Apple is known for designing software which looks way better than the competition, but in mobile OS, i have to say Android OS is just more beautifully designed.
Trust me, this is a big reason why Forstall was fired. The iOS looks and design were not cutting it.

Hence why IVE was put in control of UI...

We're going to get something really really awesome looking very soon.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 03:49 PM   #285
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Whe are not gonna see anything awesome in iOS mate, current model will brake if they do something drastic specially with the icongrids, they def will change the stock apps UI but nothing more.

iOS depends on Apps, not the other way around.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 05:12 PM   #286
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Originally Posted by Niff Stipples View Post
Which flavor/version of the Android OS are you referring to? How many of the installed/already deployed Android user base are able to load up the latest last couple of Android OSs? How many of the in-the-field and OWNED (not sitting on a store shelf or in some warehouse) Android devices are able to show the latest and greatest features and capabilities of the current Android OS?



How well do the current Android SDK/APIs support development of cool and useful Android features across a wide installed existing user base, and across a wide variety of Android hardware?

Above are rhetorical questions that developers well-understand the answers to, and point to an important deficiency for Android developers with regards to how OS and device fragmentation impacts the cost of developing, upgrading and supporting Android apps with today's Android business/development model -- i.e., how do I make MONEY without having to deal with crufty and problematic developer issues that are slow to resolve?


Niffy
It's all irrelevant. Since most mobile users now use Android devices, app developers have to deal with Android. And, from what I hear, it's not that difficult to develop on Android for different OS versions. The fact that Google Play now offers the same amount of apps as Appstore speaks for itself (not to mention that there are many app stores for Android).
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 05:45 PM   #287
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Whe are not gonna see anything awesome in iOS mate, current model will brake if they do something drastic specially with the icongrids, they def will change the stock apps UI but nothing more.

iOS depends on Apps, not the other way around.
Well, if iOS just needs Apps and nothing else, then why was the head of the iOS team fired and replaced by Ive?
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 06:19 PM   #288
Niff Stipples
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It's all irrelevant.
Hardly. There is an additional cost associated with developing and supporting an Android app across multiple versions of the Android operating system, and on differently capable Android hardware from multiple Android hardware vendors.

As time goes on, and more of the better, newer/more capable Android hardware gets out and into the marketplace and user's hands, hardware which is capable of running the latest Android OS versions with their updated feature-set capabilities, then you will find that this issue will somewhat dissipate -- depends upon how tightly Google reigns in the third-party hardware folks to an agreed upon minimal hardware standard and ability, and how much Google is able to further develop their SDK/APIs into a better functioning whole that aids the Android app developers in assuring a reliable and more predictable and more easily/less expensively supported user experience for their Android-developed apps.

Quote:
Since most mobile users now use Android devices, app developers have to deal with Android.
What is with your overly presumptuous attitude -- developers don't have to "deal" with developing and supporting Android apps if it is not profitable.

Quote:
And, from what I hear, it's not that difficult to develop on Android for different OS versions.
NOT what I "hear." How about a URL from a reliable Android developer that discusses this point that you are making?

Quote:
The fact that Google Play now offers the same amount of apps as Appstore speaks for itself (not to mention that there are many app stores for Android).
Huh? Are you trying to say that by virtue of their number count alone, the Google Play apps are a worthy and equal competitor to to the apps offered in the Apple App Store? Really?


Niffy
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 07:23 PM   #289
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Originally Posted by Niff Stipples View Post
Hardly. There is an additional cost associated with developing and supporting an Android app across multiple versions of the Android operating system, and on differently capable Android hardware from multiple Android hardware vendors.

As time goes on, and more of the better, newer/more capable Android hardware gets out and into the marketplace and user's hands, hardware which is capable of running the latest Android OS versions with their updated feature-set capabilities, then you will find that this issue will somewhat dissipate -- depends upon how tightly Google reigns in the third-party hardware folks to an agreed upon minimal hardware standard and ability, and how much Google is able to further develop their SDK/APIs into a better functioning whole that aids the Android app developers in assuring a reliable and more predictable and more easily/less expensively supported user experience for their Android-developed apps.



What is with your overly presumptuous attitude -- developers don't have to "deal" with developing and supporting Android apps if it is not profitable.



NOT what I "hear." How about a URL from a reliable Android developer that discusses this point that you are making?



Huh? Are you trying to say that by virtue of their number count alone, the Google Play apps are a worthy and equal competitor to to the apps offered in the Apple App Store? Really?


Niffy
I think you are mostly referring to small/individual developers. I do not really care about those. They sure come up with some useful apps from time to time but when it comes to the apps most people would care about (like Pandora, Netflix etc.) for these companies developing the app is not a big deal. All they care about is the potential market and this market is bigger on the Android side now.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 08:27 PM   #290
fourthtunz
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competition is good but...

I love competition but...

You're my biggest customer,
I then start making a product that competes with you.
Isn't that double dipping?
Jusst askin
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 09:27 PM   #291
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Originally Posted by STiNG Operation View Post
Maybe someday these companies will be able to collaborate so that this "awesome" technology can become "awesomer" lol

i.e. Lack of ecosystem
"Lack of ecosystem" is a frequently quoted problem, but it mostly comes from people that don't actually use Android devices, but are tasked with reviewing them.

My take is this; People that use an iOS device are going to fire up their android review unit next to their iOS device and then go through their installed apps and try and find the same apps on Android. If they can't find the same App, they ding the Android device for "ecosystem". They aren't going to have enough time to find the esoteric platform specific apps (that they have accumulate over a long time with iOS). The truth is that there are over 500K Android apps and all of the best apps are going to be available on both platforms. You're going to have Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, Angry Birds and thousands of others no matter which one you choose.

I think computer reviewers would come to the same conclusion if they approached their reviews the same way. Apple reviewers would notice the lack of applications like iLife and PC reviewers would notice the lack of things like Saleslogix, etc.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 10:22 PM   #292
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My take is this; People that use an iOS device are going to fire up their android review unit next to their iOS device and then go through their installed apps and try and find the same apps on Android. If they can't find the same App, they ding the Android device for "ecosystem". They aren't going to have enough time to find the esoteric platform specific apps (that they have accumulate over a long time with iOS). The truth is that there are over 500K Android apps and all of the best apps are going to be available on both platforms. You're going to have Facebook, Twitter, Youtube, Angry Birds and thousands of others no matter which one you choose.
Scaled phone applications are not comparable to iPad-optimized applications. Many of the best tablet apps are not available on Android, particularly the applications which are designed for larger screens and don't make sense on phone-sized displays. The Apple Store has a vast selection of these iPad-only applications designed specifically for use with larger screens, while such tablet-only applications are largely non-existent on the Android platform. Penultimate and Notability would be two examples.

The Apple and Android ecosystems are very similar for phones, at least in terms of sheer numbers, but they are not at all comparable on the tablet side; iPad-optimized apps outnumber Android tablet-optimized apps by more than 100:1. And when Android tablet-optimized versions are available, they tend to be several versions behind their iPad counterparts in functionality / reliability / performance.

Last edited by KenAFSPC; Nov 4, 2012 at 10:35 PM.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 10:49 PM   #293
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There is only so many pixels you need in a tablet isn't there?
Interesting comment.

Oh. And digging the resolution of the devices in your signature.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 11:07 PM   #294
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If the Nexus 10 offers the same OS reliability as my Galaxy Note, then call me not interested. Compared to my ICS device, my IPad runs so much smoother, crashes less (a magnitude of 10...) and in practical usage the among other vital software, the iOS email client is far better. Maybe with JB things improved a bit, but i guess I have to wait *again* a couple of months for the OS upgrade to find out

And while I always hear people arguing about the walled garden in ecosystem, in reality the difference is for the *normal* end user marginal, the experience about the same: you go the main App Store of the vendor of your choice ( or Google) and download your app.

What is far more important is, that the "walled garden" App Store offers a far greater selection of Tablet Apps.

And Flash is brought up again? Not even Google supports it officially anymore with JB. It is on its way out.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 12:16 AM   #295
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...but Apple's earnings depend to a frightening extent on a loyal fan base which will stand in pouring rain overnight to be the first to get the latest Apple gadget.

If Apple loses that fan base, the stock will drop into the teens.
Here's the dirty little secret of consumer electronics...The picture you're painting of Apple is true for most players in consumer electronics.

The industry is by nature extremely competitive. You have to have a pipeline of products to maintain consumer interest.

And if Apple stock "[dropped] into the teens," the company would be taken private so fast your head would spin.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 01:24 AM   #296
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I love competition but...

You're my biggest customer,
I then start making a product that competes with you.
Isn't that double dipping?
Jusst askin
Samsung was making tablets and smartphones way before Appke
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 02:20 AM   #297
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It's a valid point but only to a degree. Android is now a predominant mobile OS and developers have to take it seriously. Also, because of the open nature of Android ecosystem, it provides way more opportunities for developers than iOS.
As a cross platform developer I'll start taking Android seriously when Google do the same. The tools are quite poor and it's still very much a nightmare to control the user experience. Then you have the hardware partners throwing out all sorts of different devices with different requirements, to make things just a bit more difficult. Then after all your hard work you find out that the average joe can just go and download your app from some random website for free. Of course people can do the same in iOS with jailbroken devices but visiting a site is far easier, so I imagine it happens more on Android.

I can begin to agree about your point about more opportunities in Android but in reality our iOS apps seem to be much more feature rich than their Android counterparts - especially in terms experience-enriching things like animations. I know it might not sound like much but when I look at our iOS and Android apps the difference is incredible. My point is that when it comes to such technologies I can't help but feel Apple has tried a bit harder and given us some great tools to work with, and Google simply hasn't tried hard enough.
That and there's far less money to be made in Android, but we're always keeping an eye out for the platform as I do have hope for it, and I will take it seriously one day - when Google really do something about the development process.

EDIT: It's good to see Google taking the reins when it comes to hardware, but the software is the real issue. I'm looking to get the Nexus 4 phone myself, but I'd never consider a Nexus tablet anytime soon, purely because many of the apps I'd hope to use aren't optimised for tablets, which brings us back to our issue of the development process in Android.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 02:35 AM   #298
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The moment google start making rules to phone/tablets manufacturers in regards of specs and enforce updates rules across they will rule.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 06:07 AM   #299
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I think you are mostly referring to small/individual developers. I do not really care about those. They sure come up with some useful apps from time to time but when it comes to the apps most people would care about (like Pandora, Netflix etc.) for these companies developing the app is not a big deal. All they care about is the potential market and this market is bigger on the Android side now.
heh heh, what Android App market? App market are segmented and IOS owners are much more willing to spend money while Android owner tends to like free stuff and not as willing to spend money on Apps (and online purchase as well). Have more Android units does not mean more profitable apps sales.. Android device sales pitch is that they are cheaper device with the same or better spec. Guess what, you get the bargain hunters and they are not willing to spend. Notice the 10 to 1 app developers revenue ratio in favor of IOS device cited in this article. If you and I are app developers, we would spend only 10% of our time in developing Android apps and focus the other 90% of our time in IOS apps.


http://gigaom.com/apple/apple-blowin...f-app-revenue/

Munster figures Apple owns about 85 to 90 percent of current mobile app spending. While he’s measuring lifetime revenue, which provides Apple with an advantage, the discrepancy is larger than be explained by the App Store’s head start alone.

With numbers like that, iOS device owners have nothing to fear when it comes to the possibility of developers fleeing en masse to Android as it becomes the world’s dominant mobile operating system. And it looks like Apple will retain that crown for a long time, too, even if trends continue to favor Android: Munster suggests Apple will keep more than 70 percent of mobile app revenue share for the next three or four years.

Why? Android apps just don’t make anywhere near as much money through Google’s Market, nor are they downloaded as often. By Munster’s calculations, the Android Market has around 6,750,000,000 downloads to date, compared to Apple’s 18,566,331,811. Those have resulted in respective gross revenues of $341,765,335 and $4,939,611,127 respectively. Of the gross revenue, developers have seen $239,235,734 from the Market, while $3,457,727,789 has been paid out to those making software for iOS. Percentage-wise, paid apps account for only 1.3 percent of Android apps, vs 13.5 percent for iOS.

The difference is striking, and will mean Apple’s platform is likely to continue to hold a strong lead over Google’s when it comes to the breadth and depth of software selection. It also means Apple isn’t likely to freak out if Google moves a few more devices per year than it does; a strong ecosystem should keep customers coming back in strong enough numbers to keep iOS device and software revenue extremely high despite dwindling market share.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 07:16 AM   #300
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heh heh. You can sell you Iphone 5 now, may be even more than what you pay for it. And the full unlock price of S3 is lower than Iphone 5 ...So you will make out pretty good financially. Why not switch today? 8-)
Just posted it.
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