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Old Nov 4, 2012, 01:26 PM   #26
aerok
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Originally Posted by Macaroony View Post
They aren't and they have never been. The US has an Establishment Clause (1st Amendment) prohibiting a religion to set the standard of law. It's a clear separation of church and state but in some twisted loophole-logic many people of Christian faith believe they have the right to attach their religious morals to the politics of that country.

And since there is no such clause, one is allowed to judge them from a political standpoint.
Oh sorry forgot to specify that when I meant traditions, I meant for some nations/tribes outside of North America.

But I also don't like bringing up the constitution and amendment to back up an argument as they can be out of date. But looking at the whole social spectrum of the USA, it is fair to say that religion should never be mixed with politics.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 01:26 PM   #27
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In a perfect world, Romney's, Obama's, and all politician's religions would not be any of our business because it would have no affect on how they go about making political decisions in a neutral fashion based on empirical evidence rather than religion doctrine.

::sighs::
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 01:31 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by aerok View Post
Oh sorry forgot to specify that when I meant traditions, I meant for some nations/tribes outside of North America.

But I also don't like bringing up the constitution and amendment to back up an argument as they can be out of date. But looking at the whole social spectrum of the USA, it is fair to say that religion should never be mixed with politics.
Most western civilizations do have this separation in their constitutions, but it's the societies that clings to the [religious] traditions therein. I do agree that one must respect others' traditions and opinions but when they start insulting or affecting your own life and morals, you should have a right to counter those beliefs.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 01:32 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Coleman2010 View Post
Hidden camera video of Mitt Romney ranting about Mormonism and he 2nd coming of Christ.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxMD0...ature=youtu.be

I can't believe people are voting for this nut!
It freaks me out the race is as close as it is and Romney winning scares me. If he does it will be turmoil for USA and the rest of the world right along with it, IMO of course.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 01:38 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by Macaroony View Post
Most western civilizations do have this separation in their constitutions, but it's the societies that clings to the [religious] traditions therein. I do agree that one must respect others' traditions and opinions but when they start insulting or affecting your own life and morals, you should have a right to counter those beliefs.
100% agree especially when a nation shares different religions.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 01:39 PM   #31
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I live in Missouri, Jesus can hang out at my place when he comes. I don't mind hanging out with a liberal hippie who is all about healing the sick and feeding the poor.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 01:46 PM   #32
Peace
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Originally Posted by yg17 View Post
I live in Missouri, Jesus can hang out at my place when he comes. I don't mind hanging out with a liberal hippie who is all about healing the sick and feeding the poor.
I think when Jesus returns he's gonna be taking names instead. He has a different plan on his return.




And I heard as it were the noise of thunder
One of the four beasts saying come and see and I saw
And behold a white horse

There's a man going around taking names
And he decides who to free and who to blame
Everybody won't be treated all the same
There'll be a golden ladder reaching down
When the Man comes around

The hairs on your arm will stand up
At the terror in each sip and in each sup
Will you partake of that last offered cup?
Or disappear into the potter's ground
When the Man comes around

Hear the trumpets, hear the pipers
One hundred million angels singing
Multitudes are marching to the big kettledrum
Voices calling, voices crying
Some are born and some are dying
It's Alpha and Omega's kingdom come

And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree
The virgins are all trimming their wicks
The whirlwind is in the thorn tree
It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks

Till Armageddon no shalam, no shalom
Then the father hen will call his chickens home
The wise man will bow down before the throne
And at His feet they'll cast their golden crowns
When the Man comes around

Whoever is unjust let him be unjust still
Whoever is righteous let him be righteous still
Whoever is filthy let him be filthy still
Listen to the words long written down
When the Man comes around

Hear the trumpets, hear the pipers
One hundred million angels singing
Multitudes are marching to the big kettledrum
Voices calling and voices crying
Some are born and some are dying
It's Alpha and Omega's kingdom come

And the whirlwind is in the thorn tree
The virgins are all trimming their wicks
The whirlwind is in the thorn tree
It's hard for thee to kick against the pricks

In measured hundred weight and penney pound
When the Man comes around.

Close (Spoken part)
And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts
And I looked and behold, a pale horse
And his name that sat on him was Death
And Hell followed with him.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 04:15 PM   #33
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Serious question:

Shouldn't that be the third coming of Christ? First in Judea, second in the Americas (which see: The Book of Mormon), third in the Eschaton or End days. Or does the appearance in the Americas count as part of the first time?

No - Mormons actually believe that Jesus visited the Americas as well as every other place on earth before he ascended to heaven after his resurrection. The second coming is Him coming back to rule for 1000 years - its a specific thing, not just and appearance (they believe Jesus and God the Father, two separate beings, appeared to Joseph Smith when he was 14 as an answer to his prayers about what Church to join - they said none of them has their authority that he would set up the new church - thats not considered the second coming either, but an appearance).
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 04:23 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by FreeState View Post
No - Mormons actually believe that Jesus visited the Americas as well as every other place on earth before he ascended to heaven after his resurrection. The second coming is Him coming back to rule for 1000 years - its a specific thing, not just and appearance (they believe Jesus and God the Father, two separate beings, appeared to Joseph Smith when he was 14 as an answer to his prayers about what Church to join - they said none of them has their authority that he would set up the new church - thats not considered the second coming either, but an appearance).
Thanks, I appreciate the explanation.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 05:05 PM   #35
Mord
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As skeptical of mitt as I am I don't see this as any more crazy than any religious politician talking about their faith.

Last edited by Mord; Nov 5, 2012 at 06:20 AM.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 05:11 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by aerok View Post
But still I am a strong believer that religion and politics should never be mixed.
Strangely enough, if we go by the bible, Jesus held that same belief.

...not that anyone listened to him.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 06:10 PM   #37
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Rapists want to keep their child? Is that a valid logical reason? (I tried very hard)
I sure don't think so, because the resulting child would just be an extension of the power/control that he was after with the rape in the first place.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Renzatic View Post
Strangely enough, if we go by the bible, Jesus held that same belief.

...not that anyone listened to him.
Right, the "Render unto Caesarů" quote.

Strange how that is conveniently ignored by those that would use religion for their crafty purpose.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 01:13 AM   #38
Andeavor
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Strangely enough, if we go by the bible, Jesus held that same belief.

...not that anyone listened to him.
You can bring a horse to the water but you can't make it drink.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 05:59 AM   #39
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Ask Obama about the second coming on camera please.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 08:28 AM   #40
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Ask Obama about the second coming on camera please.
I doubt he'd collapse into an awkward, angry rant.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 08:33 AM   #41
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Ask Obama about the second coming on camera please.
That would be a sight to be sure. I wonder if he'd pivot on the question or just outright deny it.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 08:45 AM   #42
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I doubt he'd collapse into an awkward, angry rant.
Or that Obama would forget himself and cry out, "Allahu Akbar!"

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Old Nov 5, 2012, 08:47 AM   #43
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I couldn't agree more with this post. Seriously. I do not want anyone using politics/legislation to push their religion. I certainly hope Romney won't.

I likewise agree with you that Obama is a wackjob fairy tale believer.

Looks like we have more in common than not.
I don't think Obama is a believer, he doesn't seem like an idiot.

I think he says he's a believer because atheists are trusted slightly less than rapists in this country.

http://atheism.about.com/od/atheistb...an-Rapists.htm
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 08:58 AM   #44
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I don't think Obama is a believer
Well, he's either a believer or a liar.

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he doesn't seem like an idiot
I disagree with you. I do not believe all people of faith are idiots.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 09:02 AM   #45
citizenzen
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I do not believe all people of faith are idiots.
Neither do I.

The world is a diverse place with people of all stripes.

I thought that was supposed to be a liberal value ... accepting diversity of thought and belief.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 09:12 AM   #46
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I thought that was supposed to be a liberal value ... accepting diversity of thought and belief.
I did, too. That's why I'm often surprised at the vociferous hatred some liberals have towards people of faith.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 09:23 AM   #47
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Actually it was interesting watching the video clip: At least Romney was being himself. I wish there were more of these informal, unorchestrated exchanges with politicians.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 10:13 AM   #48
citizenzen
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I did, too. That's why I'm often surprised at the vociferous hatred some liberals have towards people of faith.
I think it's a reflection of the "hatred" many atheists feel is directed towards them.

It's natural to want to hate those who hate you.

That doesn't make it right ... or the best strategy.

But I understand its source.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 10:18 AM   #49
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I think it's a reflection of the "hatred" many atheists feel is directed towards them.

It's natural to want to hate those who hate you.

That doesn't make it right ... or the best strategy.

But I understand its source.
Once again I agree. I just don't understand why people who can't control their vociferous hatred towards people of faith - regardless of what precipitates the hate or how justified the hate is - choose to nonetheless self-identify as "liberal." I guess they simply like that "liberal" once denoted open-mindedness and they desire to appear aligned with that trait.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 10:31 AM   #50
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Once again I agree. I just don't understand why people who can't control their vociferous hatred towards people of faith - regardless of what precipitates the hate or how justified the hate is - choose to nonetheless self-identify as "liberal." I guess they simply like that "liberal" once denoted open-mindedness and they desire to appear aligned with that trait.
I think the disconnect here is between "faith" and "religious faith". Or should I say, "faith tied to a religion". If we are supposed to be a tolerant religion, should we also not control our own vociferous hatred of those who hold their faith in their religion high, even if that religion isn't our own, or near our own? If an Islamist, no matter how radical they are, has faith that their religion will grant them those 72 virgins if they martyr themselves, shouldn't we also be tolerant of that?

What of those religions that offered sacrifices? What of those religions that are ridiculed for many reasons, or thought as heresy? Wicca, Druidism, Paganism, Shamanism and many others, which people have faith in, were (and in some cases, still are) persecuted in areas of our own country. Where is the control of the tolerance and hatred there?

Many people have faith and belief. Anvil (the band) had faith and belief that they were going to be rock stars, and 27 years later, after all of their peers have either retired or gone to super stardom, they finally have made it. 27 years and 15 albums later than everyone else. I have faith and belief that if I keep up in my business practices and finally believing in myself, I will be walking away from my full-time job to go to the best job I could ever have: Full Time Dad. Does that take religious faith? no. But it takes faith, which we all (liberals, conservatives, and others) should have.

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