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Old Nov 4, 2012, 08:25 PM   #26
Scrub175
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This still rings true...

Quote:
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion.
The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is
wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts
they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions,
it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ...
And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not
warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of
resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as
to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost
in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from
time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.
It is its natural manure."
You have to hand it to our forefathers, even way back then they saw what shortcomings could happen and devised a road map to prevent it. We just don't exercise those muscles enough and now they may be gone forever.

Our system and guiding principles are antiquated, our power has been muted. We have no say or control of our country. Our leadership is truly disconnected from us commoners. Until that divide is narrowed, the haves will strangle the have nots to the point of uprising. But we remain distracted and un assembled.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 09:34 PM   #27
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Does mainstream America really care, or are we talking about the small fringe?
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 09:45 PM   #28
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Its a long way to that horizon but not unthinkable.

Rather than polarization on the political side we should look more closely at what has driven other countries to that state. A wide gulf on the economics side of things has a better chance of creating civil unrest and not just against the government. That coupled with political powerlessness is really dangerous. (ahem Egypt and much of the Arab world)

I think its more likely that we begin to draw into scenario where middle class shrinkage and upper class expansion put us into a world where neighborhoods are fenced in, businesses have armed guards etc. While not violence per se, the threat of crime and violence is always there. Anyone that has traveled to parts of Latin America and Africa see this first hand.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 03:05 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by citizenzen View Post
And I don't mean the regular violence we already suffer from in the U.S. I mean violence spawned from the political schism that only seems to be widening in this country.

Is this just a phase the nation is going through? Will we be able to heal the schism (or endure it) without resorting to violent social unrest? What can be done—if anything—to reduce the political tensions?
While things are bad they aren't anywhere as heated as the '60s. There was so much more on the line with the "threat" of communism, the Vietnam War, fighting over civil rights, the draft, cultural changes never before seen, etc. There wasn't a thing that would unify our country then. In recent times, while there is divisive talk, we did rally behind Bush on 9/11 and behind Obama right after election and both men had 70 percent approval ratings, however briefly.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 03:55 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Zombie Acorn View Post
Yes, if Obama loses.
Because rightwing nutjobs never incite violence, especially in the name of religion.

If Romney wins and keeps his promises, what will happen is (more) violence against women and laws to support it. Wooo! USA! USA! USA!



The divide will continue to widen until something snaps. The issues will have to affect a bigger number of people significantly enough to break out of complacency and denial. With how much power governments already have I wonder if any uprising will even be enough to make real change for those without the "1%" advantage. It worries me how few people seem to be concerned about giving those who already have a huge advantage even more.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 04:36 AM   #31
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I'd be okay with that if it didn't throw our whole country into chaos. For the same reason that replacing every single person in the company you work for would lead to absolute chaos and a lack of experience causing the company to go into a tailspin crisis, the same could be said on a governmental level as well. Only worse, since that involves more then widgets and invoices. It involves military and nukes.
Are we really that far away from chaos currently? Most elected politicians don't apply logic to decision-making, and concepts such as 'science' and 'strategic management' have gone the way of the dodo...
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 06:03 AM   #32
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"panem et circenses"

I think society is closer to the edge then a lot of people think. It doesn't mean we are at the tipping point, just that it doesn't take much for people to flip out.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 01:20 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by NickZac View Post
Are we really that far away from chaos currently? Most elected politicians don't apply logic to decision-making, and concepts such as 'science' and 'strategic management' have gone the way of the dodo...
We are FAR from chaos. There is still experience and people to pass the torch off too. If we replaced everyone at the same time with people who didn't have a clue how to conduct business, or rules of order, or proper procedures it would be an absolute mess. Again, just as it would be if every single person was replaced where you work leaving nothing to build from and everyone shrugging their shoulders trying to figure things out and who reports to who. Chaos.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 02:05 PM   #34
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I think the highest risk of violence comes from the right-wing religious fanatics who are trying to insert their religious beliefs into the Republican party. If the party turns from them, let's say by nominating a certain centrist conservative from Massachusetts, I could see one or more of them resorting to extreme action. Strangely, I see the election of that centrist Republican as the single best way to bring the GOP back to the zone of reasonable bipartisan governance.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 04:09 PM   #35
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$7/gal gas.
While I was certainly very aware of the problem before, seeing gas lines tens of blocks long in New York City this past week further opened my eyes to our insane dependence on oil, and how things fall apart when there is a scarcity. A sudden but sustained spike in prices could make things very, very ugly.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 04:15 PM   #36
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Not close to violence. If anything, it would have been after the financial collapse, and extreme unemployment, and we seem to have bounced back good enough. Occupy movement probably was the closest to anything, but that wasn't violent, just a little messy and unorganized. Tea party was most just a bunch of old white people picketing on street corners and didn't really last long.

I think cutting our gas use and developing electric vehicles is going to go a long way to eliminating problems. As far as internationally, I think most of us (even Romney) realize war isn't the answer. Nobody wants more wars. We want countries to solve their own problems unless nuclear is involved. But I don't think even Iran is as big of a threat as people make them out to be, and I think that is being handled fine.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 04:19 PM   #37
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While I was certainly very aware of the problem before, seeing gas lines tens of blocks long in New York City this past week further opened my eyes to our insane dependence on oil, and how things fall apart when there is a scarcity. A sudden but sustained spike in prices could make things very, very ugly.
$7/gallon gas is less than the standard UK price. We live.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 04:53 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by MadeTheSwitch View Post
We are FAR from chaos. There is still experience and people to pass the torch off too. If we replaced everyone at the same time with people who didn't have a clue how to conduct business, or rules of order, or proper procedures it would be an absolute mess. Again, just as it would be if every single person was replaced where you work leaving nothing to build from and everyone shrugging their shoulders trying to figure things out and who reports to who. Chaos.
Complete (or largely) restructuring isn't always a negative thing, but I agree it could be. I said the original comment in a somewhat jocular sense given how poorly our currently elected officials get along and how so many people in government refuse to rely on scientific reasoning or empirical evidence.

Keep in mind that with government though, much of the order is from non-elected bureaucrats within 'The Administration'...people that the average person knows almost nothing about their existence or roles within. They are largely the ones who sustain government operations and make concepts into actual policy/program. Elected officials for the most part make concepts but rarely bring them to life.

But again it was a mainly humorous comment. I'd just like to see politicians stop using religion to govern, that's all.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 06:00 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by OutThere View Post
A sudden but sustained spike in prices could make things very, very ugly.
Someone is listening, and a good thing too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eraserhead View Post
$7/gallon gas is less than the standard UK price. We live.
Sure, and how long does a tank last you, what with your shorter drives to get anywhere?
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 06:38 PM   #40
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Sure, and how long does a tank last you, what with your shorter drives to get anywhere?
Of course you are aware that British "gallons" are 25% larger than the ones we use in the US, though Eraserhead seems to have adjusted correctly: from what I can tell, they are paying on the order of $8.us/gal.us for petrol. Which in the grand scheme of things is still a huge bargain for anywhere.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 06:49 PM   #41
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Of course you are aware that British "gallons" are 25% larger than the ones we use in the US, ....
I am aware that I got that bassackwards. Sorry.
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Old Nov 5, 2012, 09:15 PM   #42
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Looting
Tweeting flash mob store robberies
Fist fights over gas

Storm Rage ?
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 11:13 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by portishead View Post
Not close to violence. If anything, it would have been after the financial collapse, and extreme unemployment, and we seem to have bounced back good enough. Occupy movement probably was the closest to anything, but that wasn't violent, just a little messy and unorganized. Tea party was most just a bunch of old white people picketing on street corners and didn't really last long.

I think cutting our gas use and developing electric vehicles is going to go a long way to eliminating problems. As far as internationally, I think most of us (even Romney) realize war isn't the answer. Nobody wants more wars. We want countries to solve their own problems unless nuclear is involved. But I don't think even Iran is as big of a threat as people make them out to be, and I think that is being handled fine.
Let us also not forget that that within the last few years, the USA has entirely changed the oil situation around. We are now an exporter again and if it were not for demand in China oil prices would be in free fall right now. The media doesn't pay a lot of attention to it but domestic production of oil is massive right now due to the new technologies. Interestingly gas is not back down to $2 a gallon though....hmmmm

War will be with us until the end of time. A little rest from it would be nice though.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 11:21 AM   #44
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And I don't mean the regular violence we already suffer from in the U.S. I mean violence spawned from the political schism that only seems to be widening in this country.
Not any time soon I don't think. But our current Divider in Chief certainly isn't helping matters, with his economic policy of victimizing, blame, entitlement, and greed. The greed on the left knows no bounds these days.

Your neighbor or brother has more money than you? He must have stolen it from you somehow! You *deserve* to take it from him. That's been the policy of the left for the past four years, from the personal finance attitudes of the constituents, all the way to the economic policy of the Whitehouse.

It's disgusting and appalling the level of greed on display from the left right now. If this trend continues, with the left achieving their goal of splitting society into wealthy elites, and impoverished government-dependent masses, then yes at some point it will escalate into class violence.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 11:27 AM   #45
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Not any time soon I don't think. But our current Divider in Chief certainly isn't helping matters, with his economic policy of victimizing, blame, entitlement, and greed. The greed on the left knows no bounds these days.

Your neighbor or brother has more money than you? He must have stolen it from you somehow! You *deserve* to take it from him. That's been the policy of the left for the past four years, from the personal finance attitudes of the constituents, all the way to the economic policy of the Whitehouse.

It's disgusting and appalling the level of greed on display from the left right now. If this trend continues, with the left achieving their goal of splitting society into wealthy elites, and impoverished government-dependent masses, then yes at some point it will escalate into class violence.

How is the so called Right any different? Corporate citizenship? The banking and mortgage failures you can lay on both parties. How about the favoring tax policies that reward moving business off shore? Another one for both sides of the aisle. All this rhetoric about who is the party of the people, the party of diversity, the party of good old american pull yourself up by your bootstraps, the party of family values etc etc. is just a distraction so one group of people can legally steal from you over the other group.

They both play the electorate like a fiddle.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 11:28 AM   #46
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 11:34 AM   #47
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There are occasionally riots over sporting events in the US, so why not politics?

I'll never understand how people can get this fanatical over a single human being running for an office that doesn't have nearly the power people think it does. Maybe some of them mean well, but by the time they are in a position to actually make a run at the presidency, they have already made so many deals, and been corrupted by so many people that it just doesn't matter.

Not to mention the legitimate issues that our country has (ridiculous amounts of debt) cannot be solved by one particular person being voted in. I'll never understand how people don't get this. Just goes to show you how brainwashed the Democratic and Republican parties have us.

Case in point - the three posts prior to this...
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 11:37 AM   #48
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There are occasionally riots over sporting events in the US, so why not politics?

I'll never understand how people can get this fanatical over a single human being running for an office that doesn't have nearly the power people think it does. Maybe some of them mean well, but by the time they are in a position to actually make a run at the presidency, they have already made so many deals, and been corrupted by so many people that it just doesn't matter.

Not to mention the legitimate issues that our country has (ridiculous amounts of debt) cannot be solved by one particular person being voted in. I'll never understand how people don't get this. Just goes to show you how brainwashed the Democratic and Republican parties have us.

Case in point - the three posts prior to this...

But if they keep us focused on ridiculous rhetoric and make it like a sporting event, they can continue to steal us blind. Brainwashed is right.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 02:20 PM   #49
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I'll never understand how people can get this fanatical over a single human being running for an office that doesn't have nearly the power people think it does.
Repeal of DADT, hospital visitation rights, a nail in the coffin of DOMA, end of lifetime caps and pre-existing conditions on insurance, a few Supreme Court nominations that will determine things for the next 30-40 years.....one man has more power then you think.
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 02:43 PM   #50
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$7/gallon gas is less than the standard UK price. We live.
The problems wouldn't necessarily be from the high price, but from a sudden jump. Low gas prices make owning a car and driving to work economically viable even for low income people. They've also meant that our public transportation infrastructure is inadequate, and that people can afford to live far from existing public transit.

So, if gas prices doubled over a short period of time, (ie not enough time to buy a more efficient car, move, or build better transit systems) we'd see quite a lot of social tension.

I'm not saying that it's good that we're this dependent on gas, but it's a reality.

Here's an example:

Someone making minimum wage, $7.25/hr, working 8 hours a day, makes $58 a day. Say they have an old beater that gets 18mpg, and they have to drive the national average 32 miles round trip to work. That means they're paying $5.60/day, or ~10% of their gross salary towards gas, at todays prices. If, two weeks from now, gas hit $7, they're up to 20% of their salary, just to get to and from work. That's hard to sustain.
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