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Old Nov 2, 2012, 09:01 AM   #26
lrmat
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Wow! People! I apologize for all the spelling errors in my previous post! (Also for all the exclamation's in this post!). I'm trying to figure out the best way to make the mini headless. How to be able to wake it from another device. For some reason my other mini didn't see my HTPC mini and kinda still doesn't it sees some files but not the external drive plugged into it (the one with the tv shows and movies).... I've set it up to screen share and that's ok, but I can't wake it from sleep that way. Same thing with that keyboard sharing app, transport. What to do?
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Old Nov 2, 2012, 09:12 AM   #27
noteple
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Remote Control thru IR port
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 04:20 PM   #28
spassbad
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How's the MAC mini doing?

Hi Irmat,

I wanted to know how are things going with your MAC mini? I am in a similar boat looking at building - but really worried that I will build too beefy of a machine and noise, heat, etc. will be more of an issue. Would like your real world experience now on the two MAC mini options available for a HTPC. I will be running XBMC, couchpotato, SABnzbd, Sick Beard. And basically do the following (from XBMC forum group #6).

HDTV possess HDMI ports
want to play SD movies (DivX, XviD)
want to play DVD movies
want to play 720P movies
want to play 1080P movies
want to stream 1080P Hulu content
want to stream 1080P Netflix movies (Windows only - so I will probably just use the PS3 for this)
want to Bistream HD-Audio

Thank you!
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 04:29 PM   #29
lrmat
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Originally Posted by spassbad View Post
Hi Irmat,

I wanted to know how are things going with your MAC mini? I am in a similar boat looking at building - but really worried that I will build too beefy of a machine and noise, heat, etc. will be more of an issue. Would like your real world experience now on the two MAC mini options available for a HTPC. I will be running XBMC, couchpotato, SABnzbd, Sick Beard. And basically do the following (from XBMC forum group #6).

HDTV possess HDMI ports
want to play SD movies (DivX, XviD)
want to play DVD movies
want to play 720P movies
want to play 1080P movies
want to stream 1080P Hulu content
want to stream 1080P Netflix movies (Windows only - so I will probably just use the PS3 for this)
want to Bistream HD-Audio

Thank you!

Let me put it this way, I had a movie playing in 1080p on my tv, while streaming to a tv in another room to a roku (bought this when I picked up the mini), two iPads and my iPhone..... Never heard the fan. I put my head near the mini and couldn't hear the fan. Today was the first time I heard the fan cause I had the mini convert a DVD to mkv for my daughter.

I would love to hear from you regarding XBMC, couchpotato, SABnzbd, Sick Beard. I don't know much about usenet and setting it up. Curious, wouldn't mind trying it.
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 07:48 PM   #30
spassbad
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HTPC w/Sick Beard, CouchPotato and SABnzbd

I'll try to hit the highlights.

Basically you signup for a Usenet service. After many days reading I landed on using https://usenetserver.com/en/index.ph...expid=655196-5 this is a great site that explains newsgroups and the nzb file - an xml file that acts much like a torrent file - http://www.newsgroupservers.net/. If you look on that last link you should fine a link to subscribe to the usenetserver for $10/month.

If you are not familiar with newsgroups at all a little reading will go a long way. The biggest advantage I've found is that they are safe, secure and you get great quality.

Once you've subscribed a few additional things are needed as the usenetserver only provides the service much like an Internet Service Provider only provides the Internet services you pay for. To get access (upload/download/search, etc.) we need two items.
1) A site that indexes public newsgroups (e.g. NZBMatrix, Newzbin2.es, etc. - these sites are a one-time lifetime subscription for VIP services, which is around $10 - free sites exist too, but don't have some features that could make the experience better)
2) An application that can import .nzb files, download, extract, etc. the file you are requesting (for MAC Unison - Windows has NewsLeecher - many more apps for both MAC and Windows but these seem to be the most popular - around $20 - $30 depending on OS one-time charge). However, SABnzbd is free and is a newsreader as well. The difference with SABnzbd is it is a bit more involved to setup and utilizes Sick Beard and CouchPotato for a total solution/experience.
I recommend going here - http://www.totalhtpc.com/the-complet...nd-headphones/ and clicking on the ultimate Usenet guide link, which is a .PDF providing instructions on setup (I haven't tried headphones).
Installing SABnzbd and CouchPotato is straight forward .dmg installers. With SickBeard a little more is involved (python, cheetah and git). It still only takes five minutes or so to install - so not difficult at all. So just a little overview of all three.

SickBeard is in my terms a PVR. With SickBeard (once configured with the Usenet credentials and indexing sites) you can search for any TV show. For example I have Person Of Interest as I show I want it to find among many others. It will find the shows I want and all subsequent episodes - much like a DVR as it downloads the shows automatically once available, which is minutes after the show has aired. CouchPotato does the same but for movies vs. TV shows. They both search the Usenet servers and indexing sites for nzb files. They send those .nzb files to SABnzbd to download. SABnzbd then downloads, extracts, and confirms the health of the download and will update XBMC or PLEX. When it's setup it takes all the pain out of searching index sites and within newsreader clients for files. SABnzbd will extract .rar and create the .mkv file for you. For me it truly makes the HTPC experience real - one that you could cut the cable or satellite completely out (so you don't need to get Unison for the functionality we're speaking about here).

Today I use my Macbook pro for my HTPC, which isn't practical. I have plex media server running on my iMac - so I want to get a dedicated machine now with the amount of use XBMC and PLEX are getting.

Hope that helps! And thank you for the update!
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Old Nov 4, 2012, 09:47 PM   #31
lrmat
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spassbad View Post
I'll try to hit the highlights.

Basically you signup for a Usenet service. After many days reading I landed on using https://usenetserver.com/en/index.ph...expid=655196-5 this is a great site that explains newsgroups and the nzb file - an xml file that acts much like a torrent file - http://www.newsgroupservers.net/. If you look on that last link you should fine a link to subscribe to the usenetserver for $10/month.

If you are not familiar with newsgroups at all a little reading will go a long way. The biggest advantage I've found is that they are safe, secure and you get great quality.

Once you've subscribed a few additional things are needed as the usenetserver only provides the service much like an Internet Service Provider only provides the Internet services you pay for. To get access (upload/download/search, etc.) we need two items.
1) A site that indexes public newsgroups (e.g. NZBMatrix, Newzbin2.es, etc. - these sites are a one-time lifetime subscription for VIP services, which is around $10 - free sites exist too, but don't have some features that could make the experience better)
2) An application that can import .nzb files, download, extract, etc. the file you are requesting (for MAC Unison - Windows has NewsLeecher - many more apps for both MAC and Windows but these seem to be the most popular - around $20 - $30 depending on OS one-time charge). However, SABnzbd is free and is a newsreader as well. The difference with SABnzbd is it is a bit more involved to setup and utilizes Sick Beard and CouchPotato for a total solution/experience.
I recommend going here - http://www.totalhtpc.com/the-complet...nd-headphones/ and clicking on the ultimate Usenet guide link, which is a .PDF providing instructions on setup (I haven't tried headphones).
Installing SABnzbd and CouchPotato is straight forward .dmg installers. With SickBeard a little more is involved (python, cheetah and git). It still only takes five minutes or so to install - so not difficult at all. So just a little overview of all three.

SickBeard is in my terms a PVR. With SickBeard (once configured with the Usenet credentials and indexing sites) you can search for any TV show. For example I have Person Of Interest as I show I want it to find among many others. It will find the shows I want and all subsequent episodes - much like a DVR as it downloads the shows automatically once available, which is minutes after the show has aired. CouchPotato does the same but for movies vs. TV shows. They both search the Usenet servers and indexing sites for nzb files. They send those .nzb files to SABnzbd to download. SABnzbd then downloads, extracts, and confirms the health of the download and will update XBMC or PLEX. When it's setup it takes all the pain out of searching index sites and within newsreader clients for files. SABnzbd will extract .rar and create the .mkv file for you. For me it truly makes the HTPC experience real - one that you could cut the cable or satellite completely out (so you don't need to get Unison for the functionality we're speaking about here).

Today I use my Macbook pro for my HTPC, which isn't practical. I have plex media server running on my iMac - so I want to get a dedicated machine now with the amount of use XBMC and PLEX are getting.

Hope that helps! And thank you for the update!
spassbad, thank you for all the helpful info. i hope to one day soon use it. ;^D
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Old Nov 6, 2012, 09:32 AM   #32
davwin
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I was initially using my 2008 MacBook as a Plex server. I use my 42" HDTV as the main screen at 1080p and a yamaha receiver/sound setup for 5.1. It worked fine and full bitrate BD rips (no compression) played back without issue as long as they were on the local HDD. This is a C2D 2Ghz model with 4GB of RAM. Also, the 2008 model only supported video over mDP/HDMI so audio was over optical (compressed). Files on external disks (USB2) played back well for the most part but, high bitrate rips such as The Incredibles stuttered unless I compressed them.

I have now upgraded the HTPC to a 2012 Mac Mini - I went with the entry level model with a 2.5Ghz Core i5 and 4GB RAM. This model has a significantly faster CPU and moderately faster GPU and supports USB3 now. For clarification the external HDD's I have are all USB3 but, were running in USB2 mode on the old Mac. Playing back the same Incredibles BD rip off of the same external disk (in USB3 mode now) plays back with no issues on the new Mac Mini. It also supports audio over HDMI as opposed to the old Mac so, the audio is the uncompressed DTS HDMA which is much improved.

Overall my experience with the 2012 Mac Mini as a HTPC has been excellent: It is a near silent PC, has very small physical profile, a solid number of ports for connections and the IR receiver works from a pretty wide angle. Compared to the MacBook I was using it boots a little faster and seems to respond a little quicker. Fast forwarding and scanning through a movie during playback responds quicker as you would expect on the new Maci and the Plex library itself seems to load a little faster. I plays back all of the files I have thrown at it without stutter whether on the local disk or an external HDD and playback quality for audio has improved since I can now use HDMI and uncompressed sound.

Very impressed with it as a 499 HTPC box
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Old Nov 8, 2012, 12:20 PM   #33
thoosero
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Introducing an Apple TV into the mix

This thread is really helpful - thanks.

My proposed setup is along the same lines ie using mac mini as a server running plex media server, hooked up to a NAS where all the media is stored. I am proposing to leave all of that hardware upstairs in the study, with the TV in the lounge downstairs hooked up to my apple TV with the apple TV (jail broken) running plex as a client.

Can any of you see a downside to this setup (ie using the plex client on apple TV rather than connecting the mac mini directly to the TV)?

Btw, using the harmony remote with apple tv (including plex) is really straight forward - I think that getting the remote to work with the Mac mini is definitely doable quite a bit of work to get working smoothly/correctly.

Tks!
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 05:10 PM   #34
lrmat
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Originally Posted by thoosero View Post
This thread is really helpful - thanks.

My proposed setup is along the same lines ie using mac mini as a server running plex media server, hooked up to a NAS where all the media is stored. I am proposing to leave all of that hardware upstairs in the study, with the TV in the lounge downstairs hooked up to my apple TV with the apple TV (jail broken) running plex as a client.

Can any of you see a downside to this setup (ie using the plex client on apple TV rather than connecting the mac mini directly to the TV)?

Btw, using the harmony remote with apple tv (including plex) is really straight forward - I think that getting the remote to work with the Mac mini is definitely doable quite a bit of work to get working smoothly/correctly.

Tks!
Thoosero, I wrote a longer post but I took too long and lost what I wrote. Basically, I currently have two external drives plugged in, one USB 2 and the other USB 3. Both work flawlessly. No complaints. You shouldn't have a problem. I will say that I am having problems with the roku I bought when I picked up the mini. The plex app is the culprit. Netflix, crackle, other apps stream with no issues. Plex is constantly buffering.... Very frustrating. I would have gone for the Apple TV, but its not jail broken therefore no plex.

I'm replacing boxee boxes in the kids room and mine. I'm loving plex but I miss navi-x, AirPlay (ironic), and the ability to send Internet videos to my queue for later.
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 07:02 PM   #35
TrackZ
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Quote:
I have now upgraded the HTPC to a 2012 Mac Mini - I went with the entry level model with a 2.5Ghz Core i5 and 4GB RAM. This model has a significantly faster CPU and moderately faster GPU and supports USB3 now. For clarification the external HDD's I have are all USB3 but, were running in USB2 mode on the old Mac. Playing back the same Incredibles BD rip off of the same external disk (in USB3 mode now) plays back with no issues on the new Mac Mini. It also supports audio over HDMI as opposed to the old Mac so, the audio is the uncompressed DTS HDMA which is much improved.
What's the software set up you are using to get DTS HD out of the Mini? Are you running Windows on it?
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Old Nov 9, 2012, 08:14 PM   #36
lrmat
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What's the software set up you are using to get DTS HD out of the Mini? Are you running Windows on it?
Actually...... I'm almost embarrassed to say I don't have surround sound, got riding it a couple of years ago. It was impossible for me to watch a movie w/surround because of the kids, and eventually my little boy managed to muck up my onkyo receiver. I ended up getting a sound bar. I barely use that. I've long ago returned my audiophile membership card.
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Old Nov 10, 2012, 08:17 AM   #37
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Actually...... I'm almost embarrassed to say I don't have surround sound, got riding it a couple of years ago. It was impossible for me to watch a movie w/surround because of the kids, and eventually my little boy managed to muck up my onkyo receiver. I ended up getting a sound bar. I barely use that. I've long ago returned my audiophile membership card.
TrackZ, I just realized the question wasn't directed at me. Disregard my post...

Last night I had some time to futz around with my mini and plex in particular. I finally installed unsupported plug-ins and was able to download some great plug-ins! TOTAL GAME CHANGER! I'm not going to get into it, I'm going to assume its fight club rules "first rule of fight club........"

Also someone told me I can wake up the mini with the ir...... Not true. I've just let it stay awake and put the screen and hdd's to sleep. I'm using splash top to vnc in the mini and make changes as needed. Also to access the external hdd's on my HTPC mini I look through finder using //smb. Works great. Things are starting to really click. If the mini is just playing a movie (my mini is both server/client) all is great, I don't hear it at all. The only time I have heard the fans is late at night when all are asleep, the volume is low and I'm streaming to an iPad.
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 08:48 AM   #38
davwin
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For surround sound I did not need to install any special drivers or anything. I have the standard drivers pre-installed on the Mac and the soundflower pack for decoding on Plex when off-network.

As far as my standard viewing setup, i am in room and watching via the Plex app on the Mac Mini itself (also the Plex host). I am simply passing the signal through from the Mac to the receiver over HDMI. The Yamaha DXP 7 series decodes the DTS-HDMA signal so for clarification, the Mac isn't doing any transcoding or decoding on the audio, only handing it off to the receiver. Hope that helps
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Old Nov 12, 2012, 10:41 AM   #39
TrackZ
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Originally Posted by davwin View Post
For surround sound I did not need to install any special drivers or anything. I have the standard drivers pre-installed on the Mac and the soundflower pack for decoding on Plex when off-network.

As far as my standard viewing setup, i am in room and watching via the Plex app on the Mac Mini itself (also the Plex host). I am simply passing the signal through from the Mac to the receiver over HDMI. The Yamaha DXP 7 series decodes the DTS-HDMA signal so for clarification, the Mac isn't doing any transcoding or decoding on the audio, only handing it off to the receiver. Hope that helps
So to confirm this, you are bitstreaming real DTS MA from the Mac plex client in Mac osx? Everything I've read suggests that's not possible. Are you sure you're getting MA and not the core DTS track?

Can you please or PM specifics about what you have set up to do this?
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 09:30 AM   #40
davwin
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That's correct TrackZ - As far as I am aware, I am bitstreaming it from the Mac to the receiver. To be honest though, I'm not sure if its playing the core DTS track or the DTS HDMA stream. The receiver is showing DTS-HD on screen and I am selecting DTS-HDMA via the Plex audio menu but, you might be right and it could be playing the core DTS track and just mis-reporting it. To my ears the sound is "deeper" and sounds "fuller" than the DD 5.1 audio track but, the DTS core track is 5db louder by default I think so it may be tricking my ears). I did not check the transmitted bitrate to verify it is the HDMA stream.

I'll see if I can confirm this or not and post an update. Thanks.
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Old Nov 13, 2012, 01:03 PM   #41
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Might be overkill, but many options work well!

Hi all,

Thought I'd chime in. I used a 2007 Mac mini (1.83 GHz Core 2 Duo, 4GB RAM with 3GB addressable) and Plex as a HTPC for 5 years. It was connected to the HDTV via a DVI to HDMI cable and to the home theater system via an optical TOSLINK cable. It worked great! Very quiet, with some external HDs for media storage. It also served as the central iTunes and iPhoto storage for our home.


It could handle 1080P MKV/MP4 decoding, and passed all audio types through just fine. It could encode too, but that was certainly fairly slow. Transcoding was of course much better.

We recently moved, and switched to an AppleTV for the home theater, with the Mac mini tucked away in the office on the other side of the house as the server. Everything still works great for media, streaming over 802.11n via Airport Express can handle 1080P just fine, although the mini is getting long-in-tooth for iPhoto and general use (and it can't run Mountain Lion or future OS updates). Once the new iMacs are out and benchmarked, we'll decide between the new Mac mini or iMac to replace it.

So to the OP, I'd say any Mac mini, new or from 2007 and beyond, should handle everything just fine as a HTPC. If you're looking to get the additional benefit of a DVR, know that by law all cable providers are required to provide you a STB with active FireWire port when asked. Depending on your provider, this will allow you to at least record unencrypted broadcast channels in HD. If they are lax, you can also record many other cable HD channels. When I was living in NYC years ago TWC there didn't encode HBO HD, so it was a great way to legally record the HD movies I was paying to have access to. See this blog for detailed instructions or just use FireRecord to do so. I'm not sure if the same rule applies to satellite providers. Otherwise, there are sorts of products from people like Elgato to record various inputs to the Mac mini HTPC.

Lastly, if you already have a Mac that can work as a media server tucked away in a closet somewhere, an Apple TV is a very affordable way to get your content to every TV in your house and also offers some other fun things like Apple's random programming (the annual iTunes Festival, keynotes, etc.) and using it for AirPlay if you have iOS devices. A HTPC does offer more options for media types and other uses, but if you're in a fairly iOS/OS X household already it's easy to get a "convert-everything-to-MP4" workflow and with the newer feature of OS X AirPlay you can get the other streaming content Plex and Boxee support onto the Apple TV.

If you have an older Mac (depending on when in 2011 you bought your Mac mini server determines if Mountain Lion's AirPlay feature works based on a hardware requirement for Apple's implementation), AirParrot implements AirPlay in software/CPU. You might have to adjust the quality a little lower depending on what your Mac's CPU can handle. But they offer a trial version that streams for 10 mins and a license is only $9.99. I've used it with my MacBook Pro 2009 to send HBO Go to my Apple TV and it works great.

Bottom line, any Mac from about 2007 and on should be able to handle being a HTPC for media storage, display, and torrent box. If you plan to record and encode media, then the faster the better. If you already have a 2011 Mac mini server somewhere in the house, you can also use Apple TV to share that media to all TVs inexpensively.

Good luck!
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Old Nov 16, 2012, 10:05 AM   #42
davwin
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Ok, confirmed on my Plex setup that it is only playing the DTS core track and not the HDMA lossless track (used "I" to verify bitrate during playback). So, TrackZ was correct and the receiver was simply mis reporting DTS as the DTS HD track. The root cause is that there are no drivers to support DTS lossless natively under OSX. This MKV (Incredibles) is a full bitrate BD rip with 5 audio tracks and caused skipping on the MacBook during playback - even with only the core DTS track. It no longer skips with the 2012 Mac Mini but, it is still not playing the DTS-HDMA lossless track natively. This is a big change I thought I was getting with the new Mac Mini but, it will not work in this way under OSX.

In order to find a workaround I checked the Plex forums and, as a test, I found the steps to convert the DTS-HDMA track to FLAC via eac3to. I did this and the FLAC track did playback without a problem. So, thanks to TrackZ for pointing this out - he's right, there aren't OSX drivers so DTS lossless is definitely not natively supported under OSX. Lossless will work but, it must be in LPCM or FLAC format.

As long as I have a workaround I am o.k. with this limitation personally but, it is a limitation you would not have to put up with under Windows
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Old Mar 19, 2013, 10:56 PM   #43
cloudedhopes
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bless you!

Irmat and all the other folks - thanks for the replies on this thread... although this has been dead for a few months, I was looking for a case for a HTPC build that looks sexy enough to be in the living room - found nothing but came across the mac mini route (don't know why I hadn't thought about it in the first place!)...
so after having read through this thread, I think i'm going to go ahead and just get the mac mini...
and, anyone have any updates on how things are working for you?
thanks again!
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 04:18 AM   #44
blanka
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Try to get a 2009 or a 2010 model. These can be equipped with BluRay drive and are fast enough for everything. If you get one for 300$, it is half price of a new one. And no HDMI issues.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 05:50 AM   #45
phrehdd
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Various Mac Mini models will work with XBMC and Plex as suggested by other users. On OSX, you give up HD audio but that doesn't seem to be an issue for you. I think it is excellent that you can have a small footprint, a far more flexible unit than say - ATV and also if you decide use it for other purposes.

Though they are a small bit costly for what they are, check out the Mini Stacker over at OWC. It has the same footprint as the Mac Mini and can be stacked (recommend the empty unit and put in your own hard drive). This makes a very clean set up. (My preference is to put larger spacers between the two for heat dissipation.)

I have multiple units that can play media files - TV, blu ray player, Dune media player (excellent units but ugly menus), and my Mac Mini.

I say go with the Mini and enjoy it. While 4 gigs of RAM will work, go for 8 as you never know what other items you may add such as games or add on apps for Plex/XBMC. After the dust has cleared, look into MakeMKV as well as some add on large hard drive storage (directly attached or NAS).

IF later you decide to get back into more audio - Your Mini can run Windows or Linux and for XBMC/Plex, the HD audio WILL work with those OS's.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 10:31 AM   #46
lrmat
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cloudedhopes

I started this thread probably more for affirmation. I didn't need to be talked into buying a mini, i needed to be talked out of it.... that didn't happen..... good thing. I love the mini for htpc duties. i no longer have a surround sound system due to the kids and wife, so audio is not an issue i can address with any authority. my mini has the following duties: plex server/player, print server for ipads, bt server. i have not had the time to look into some things i would like to do (like to start doing usenet, couchpotato, sickbeard). I have a number of drives (all usb 3) directly plugged into the mini (hidden and out of the way).

I love having all my media and my kids stuff in one place and having it stream around the house. I will be watching the latest episode of top gear, while one child is on her ipad watching Hotel Transilvania, the other is watching Monster's inc in the living room Roku, and my wife is watching Girls on her ipad. all in hd, not a stutter amongst them, most of the time i don't hear the fans of the mini go off (my personal mini, 2011 model, the fan would spin up more often, this mini i have is the 2012 model.... overkill, maybe but it does the job effortlessly, which is kinda what you want). though i will say a few weeks back i had plex "sync" a season of Homeland.... transcoding made that fan go and i had it do this overnight, i'm in nyc and the htpc is in my bedroom... learned a valuable lesson.. no overnight transcoding.

I bought 16 gigs of ram, swapped the ram to my personal mini and took the 8gig in that and put it in the htps. plex menus now breeze through. tv show/movie icons refresh instantly. I don't regret it for a second. get 8gigs. worst case scenario, i take it and use it for something else..... it's a computer so it is very versatile and very stable (something i couldn't say about a windows pc). if plex stops working for me, i switch to xbmc or whatever else is out there. mac mini as an htpc is on the expensive side but I don't regret it. i am very happy with this setup. I came from Boxeebox (which i loved, but once they decided to go for the cable cutter crowd, i needed to find something else that would merge my personal media with the streaming media)

hope this helps in some way.
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Old Mar 20, 2013, 07:13 PM   #47
Idgit
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Glad to hear it worked out. I'm not sure what your family did to your surround sound system, but you can get decent and affordable sound from a soundbar. I've been very happy with the Sony CT-150. I picked it up on sale for $200.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lrmat View Post
i no longer have a surround sound system due to the kids and wife, so audio is not an issue i can address with any authority.
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Old Mar 21, 2013, 08:39 AM   #48
lrmat
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Originally Posted by Idgit View Post
Glad to hear it worked out. I'm not sure what your family did to your surround sound system, but you can get decent and affordable sound from a soundbar. I've been very happy with the Sony CT-150. I picked it up on sale for $200.
Nah! lol. my kids were too young for a bunch of explosions and my wife too old..... strike that, i mean she's too sensitive....... to loud sounds. I have a vizio that i never really use but am thinking of getting the sonos (i have 2 play:3's and a play:5) and when ever they all leave i can bring in the play:3's and have true surround.
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